Electrofrog conductivity problems

[IMS]

I have a small layout in Peco Streamline Code 100, using electrofrog points, traditional DC wiring, all soldered. The baseboard sits on furniture, so surface wiring and switching is used.

 

The points are wired "out of the box" but   the track current switching is  unreliable. Trains often stop as soon as they hit the frog.

 

 I can see nothing evidently wrong, the switching seems quite positive and I've carefully cleaned the track especially where the switchable blade butts up to the static rail.

I hope someone can help. I have been trying to solve the problem for some time and my investigations and musings are summarized below

The trouble seems to be that the conductivity relies only on a butt joint. In older electrofrog points (I've been a casual modeller since the 1970s) there were little clips under the track helping to secure both the switching process and the conductivity - but these seem to have been dropped!

 

I'm reluctant to revert to these older Peco points because they had another problem: the switching spring was under the points so if it popped out you had to rip up the track to get at it! Or use an ugly external switch.

 

The obvious answer is to use a switch which simultaneously switches the point and the electricity. These are generally unsuitable for surface mounting. I bought some Caboose manual switches from the USA, which look like prototype US yard switches, but were too finicky and delicate to assemble reliably.

 

I know it's heresy, but it seems to me that in my situation I might be better off with Insulfrog points. The tiny dead section in them would be a minor problem.

 

Do Insulfrog points have a more reliable electrical switching than Electrofrog? Or would I need to remove their electrical switching and put in separately  switched extra track sections for the loops and sidings?

 

I would would be most grateful for any advice.

[Rowsley17D]

Relying on the contact between the switch rails and the stock rails to power the crossing (frog) is not very reliable as you have found out. Any chance of hiding change-over switches etc under scenery or buildings like PW huts? Another idea would be to use wire in tube method to change the points connected to a change-over switch on the baseboard edge to change the crossing polarity.

 

If you have deep pockets these are available from DCC Concepts when they are in stock.

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product-category/the-cobalt-collection/cobalt-point-motors/cobalt-ss/

Edited December 20, 2019 by Rowsley17D

[steve W]

On a small club shunting puzzle that was surface wired I fitted small microswitches against the end of the tie bar. A sliver of paper or plasticard over the top and small wiring to complete after a digging a temporary trench for it in the surrounding scenery. Works fine. 

You are between a rock and a hardplace - either a bit of work and disturbance or unreliable operation. I used these or very similar.:

https://www.switchelectronics.co.uk/switches/microswitches/sub-miniature-microswitches-spdt

Fixed to the baseboard they are 13 x 6 x 7mm (plus connection tabs) and all but invisible.

[Pete the Elaner]

Just now, steve W said:

On a small club shunting puzzle that was surface wired I fitted small microswitches against the end of the tie bar. A sliver of paper or plasticard over the top and small wiring to complete after a digging a temporary trench for it in the surrounding scenery. Works fine. 

You are between a rock and a hardplace - either a bit of work and disturbance or unreliable operation. I used these or very similar.:

https://www.switchelectronics.co.uk/switches/microswitches/sub-miniature-microswitches-spdt

Fixed to the baseboard they are 13 x 6 x 7mm (plus connection tabs) and all but invisible.

I expect their reliability is excellent too. I would definitely find a way to add a switch similar to this.

 

Regarding the OP's mention of Insulfrogs, I find their blade connection is no more reliable than Electros.

I am not sure why Peco removed the connection tabs under the point. The later design with the removable wires underneath certainly suggests that they believe feeding the frog from a switch is the best thing to do.

[RFS]

Bear in mind also, with the code 75 and 100 turnouts (but not the latest bullhead ones), that conductivity to the frog is also dependent on the pivoted joint that connects the moving blade to the fixed rail of the frog. If this gets loose, or tarnished (although more likely when the track has been painted and/or ballasted) then this connection can become unreliable too. 

[spikey]

20 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

... I am not sure why Peco removed the connection tabs under the point.

 

It's many years since I had anything to do with press tooling, but I'd bet a pound to a penny that ditching  that little bent bit (to use the technical term) cut their reject rate, and saved them money too. 

[eastglosmog]

I use these http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=GM500&style=&strType=&Mcode=Gaugemaster+GM500

on the Peco points in my fiddleyard to change polarity of the frog and the switch blades.  These are the type for DC, avoid the GM500D variety, as these are for DCC and are wired differently.

Can be worked with the same passing contact switch as drives the point motor. Definitely worth the hassle of wiring them up.

 

[John Tomlinson]

I also use the same method as you using Peco 75, however I've had only a few problems in 15 years on quite a large layout.

 

I wonder, is the point ballasted? If so, how was this done? When I ballasted my layout, I did on occasion go a bit overboard with the PVA solution and rather flooded the points, they needed some careful cleaning afterwards.

 

When you say you've cleaned the points, I wonder how you've done this? I found that to get the rail to rail contact clear, it was helpful to wind a sliver of fine wet and dry around a small screwdriver or cocktail stick, and rub carefully  with the paper vertical and moving from side to side. When you rub the face of rail that moves, do support it from behind so you aren't stressing the rail to tiebar joint. Brush the fine debris away at the end with a small brush, or better still use a vacuum cleaner.

 

The other thing to check is that when the points throw they do go over fully. The centre spring on mine sits at one end against a little block, and this can move reducing the tension in the spring so the throw isn't complete. This can happen out of the blue for no apparent reason - it did it on one of my points a few weeks ago! If so you need to get the centre block pushed to tighten the spring, then use snipe nose pliars on the two clips that hold the box in place.

 

I hope this is helpful, and doesn't sound too schooly.

 

John.

[IMS]

Gosh, many thanks to you all for the very helpful, prompt replies! Much food for thought: I'm hopeful there may be a solution there.

There's little scope for using buildings to disguise switchgear as the tracks and points are so close together: it's two terminii and sidings (one urban one rural) end-on with a short tunnel between with the backcloth curving to the front between them.

The failed point is, of course, right in the middle used by all trains and close to the tunnel! But I need to treat all points as it can happen again.

The microswitchs look particularly interesting as maybe a low impact direct solution.

Thanks again...

[IMS]

My post crossed with John's.

I've not ballasted yet as I want reliable operation first. I'll try your tip with the abrasive. I normally use a cloth with Isopropyl alcohol to clean track, using Peco track cleaner rubber for bad bits. But these don't get into the contact location.

 

Steve W and Pete the Elaner:

 

Would I need to remove the points to cut the manufacturer's connection and to access the wires to install the microswitches? And...

 

Can the moving switch be readilly set to push and pull the sliding plastic switch on the point?

 

 

 

 

[Harlequin]

You could try a fibreglass pencil to clean the sides of the rails down in the gap between the blades and the stock rails. Be careful not to get any fibres on your skin, though, and hoover out any fibres from the points after cleaning.

 

Also remember that the electrical connection to the frog relies on the hinges where the blades join the fixed closure rails. I’m not sure how to clean that joint in situ but you could perhaps try putting a drop of isopropyl alcohol on the joint and working it a bit.

 

Then test whether you have electrical continuity through these various junctions using a multimeter. That will tell you where the problem really is.

[newbryford]

The OP mentions that trains stop when they come to the frog.

There is no mention of the point being operated by a motor. 

Are they manual only?

If so - how are they manually operated?

 

If they are manual, it may be possible to use SPDT (or DPDT) slide switches to operate the point and switch it electrically as well - using a link from the switch to the tiebar.

 

If it was a blade/stock rail contact issue, then the train would stop as soon as the pickups leave the fixed stock rail.

Maybe the OP can confirm if this is the case or not.

A multimeter would confirm this.

 

If it is *just* the frog that is dead, then there is a possibility that one of the spot welded connections has come loose underneath.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Il Grifone]

Electrical switching using the point blades is unlikely to be reliable with or without the little bits of tin (though better with). I use the microswitches (mine directly from the Far East). They are easy enough to hide under the scenery or under the baseboard.

[IMS]

Thanks for the new replies.

The points are operated simply by pulling and pushing the slide bars. There is usually little more than the 6' way alongside the points and only the 1/2” or so of baseboard underneath the track.

The track on the duff connection side is completely isolated by the failure.

I'll see how the glas fibre brush works.

It's a pity a microswitch system isn't built into the points, or the contact clips retained -these were easy to adjust with a small screwdriver.

[Pete the Elaner]

12 hours ago, IMS said:

 

Would I need to remove the points to cut the manufacturer's connection and to access the wires to install the microswitches? And...

 

The points are operated simply by pulling and pushing the slide bars.

 

The small links are under the rails. YOU would need to lift the points in order to cut them. I find them a little fiddly to remove even with the point upside down.

 

I have heard of people somehow fitting microswitches to wire-in-tube levers, but if you are throwing the points by their tiebars then you may need to throw switches separately, which is an inconvenient hassle. 

[IMS]

Thanks to all. The problem points are working again thanks to the glass fibre brush as suggested by Harlequin.

 

Went over the butt joints of other points too, and the tags of the older points reclaimed from earlier layout.

 

I'll try the suggested longer term solutions, but I'm very limited by the need for surface wiring and the desire not to lift the track unless absolutely necessary.

 

Peco, please, reinstate the tags under the moving blades that you had on earlier points!

 

Seasons Greetings to all.

[Mick Bonwick]

I know it won't help your current (sorry) predicament, but the newer bullhead rail points, called Unifrog, have done away with the need for connectivity reliant upon switch rail to stock rail contact. Your plea has already been answered!

 

Season's greetings to you and yours.

[RexAshton]

A solution that has worked for me is to solder a fine wire across the  joint between the switch plates and the closure rails  on the outside of the rails thus avoiding problems with the joint. The secret is to solder just the ends of the wire so that it doesn't impede the physical operation of the hinge. It's a bit fiddly but works a treat. Once the track is painted it doesn't show.

[Tony Cane]

On 21/12/2019 at 08:46, Pete the Elaner said:

The small links are under the rails. YOU would need to lift the points in order to cut them. I find them a little fiddly to remove even with the point upside down.

 

I have heard of people somehow fitting microswitches to wire-in-tube levers, but if you are throwing the points by their tiebars then you may need to throw switches separately, which is an inconvenient hassle. 

I have had to retro-fit micro switches to Peco points that have been recently purchased and installed.

I have found that a scalpel blade pushed down the gap between the rails where the link is, will sever the connection without lifting the point.

We have used surface mount point motors and on most of the points use the other end of the rod moving the tie bar to actuate the micro switch.

In one location there was not enough room to do this so the micro switch is actuated by the other end of the tie bar.

A small block of plastic was glued on to the vertical pin of the tie bar and this acts directly against the pin on the micro switch.

The small size of the micro switch makes this arrangement fairly unobtrusive.

I could post some pictures if you are interested.

[Harlequin]

15 minutes ago, Tony Cane said:

I have had to retro-fit micro switches to Peco points that have been recently purchased and installed.

I have found that a scalpel blade pushed down the gap between the rails where the link is, will sever the connection without lifting the point.

Sounds interesting but I’m looking at the underside of a Code 75 Small Radius turnout and I can’t see where you would make the cut(s). Could you post a photo or a drawing with the position(s) marked, please?

[Tony Cane]

The points I converted are Code 100, and have the gap in the rail between sleepers and no molded plastic in the gap.

The code 75 that I have, have the gap centered on a sleeper and plastic in the gap so what I could do easily on the code 100 is impossible on the code 75.

Sorry I got your hopes up.

[IMS]

Thabks for the extra ideas.

I left off this topic over Christmas as I had family visiting.

The glassfibre brush proved a very temporary solution: the point soon failed again, and now another has joined it!

I think the current Peco Electrofrog points are unfit for purpose unless they are attached to a microswitch or equivalent means of replacing reliance on the blade.

I'll look at the ideas suggested alongside a few others, including fitting Peco PL-13 switch under the points.

There are many other threads on this site and elswhere on this and the related problem (I've also experienced) of electrofrog points failing to isolate the unselected route.

If I was starting from scratch I'd also be looking at insulfrog with the switched routes having their own sections from the controller:

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/231667.aspx

[cravensdmufan]

Would someone be very kind and post a photo of how they have physically connected a micro switch to a solenoid point motor to switch frog polarity please? Preferably under the baseboard.  I understand the electrical wiring. 

 

I am currently using Peco PL-13 switches - but have had quite a few fail.  Plus I don't like the fixing arrangement of gluing it onto the motor! One or two have fallen off, glue weakened with age I suppose.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Pete the Elaner]

11 hours ago, IMS said:

I think the current Peco Electrofrog points are unfit for purpose unless they are attached to a microswitch or equivalent means of replacing reliance on the blade.

I'll look at the ideas suggested alongside a few others, including fitting Peco PL-13 switch under the points.

 

There are some on here who would disagree with you, stating that they have never had an issue with poor stock/blade conductivity. What none ever seem to mention is whether they consider it routine maintenance to scrub them with a fibreglass pencil.

 

I err towards your point of view. I think Peco supply them like they are because forcing a user to cut links, add different ones & a switch would mean they could not be sold RTR.

 

& like above, I have had issues with PL-13 switches in the past: 2 out of 8 failed & I know of others who avoid them too. It is possible Peco have modified their construction to make them more reliable.

[Pete the Elaner]

9 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Would someone be very kind and post a photo of how they have physically connected a micro switch to a solenoid point motor to switch frog polarity please? Preferably under the baseboard.  I understand the electrical wiring. 

 

I am currently using Peco PL-13 switches - but have had quite a few fail.  Plus I don't like the fixing arrangement of gluing it onto the motor! One or two have fallen off, glue weakened with age I suppose.

 

Thanks in advance.

The Peco motor is above the baseboard & the SEEP one is below, but the principle is the same: fir the switch to a couple of small blocks of wood. I have used impact adhesive to fix the switch. It needs fairly careful positioning but you can feel a nice, positive click when it has thrown so it is easy to get right.

 

Having tried both motors, I prefer Peco because SEEP ones are more difficult to throw. I couldn't throw any without a CDU - Pecos will throw ok. I have also heard on here that SEEPs are 'ok with careful setup'. Peco's are more tolerant of setup.