RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted December 31, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) The new "Twistlock" point motors have an optional redesigned microswitch that fixes mechanically to the motor: If anyone has actual experience of using these new products their comments might be useful. Edited December 31, 2019 by Harlequin 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravensdmufan Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said: The Peco motor is above the baseboard & the SEEP one is below, but the principle is the same: fir the switch to a couple of small blocks of wood. I have used impact adhesive to fix the switch. It needs fairly careful positioning but you can feel a nice, positive click when it has thrown so it is easy to get right. Having tried both motors, I prefer Peco because SEEP ones are more difficult to throw. I couldn't throw any without a CDU - Pecos will throw ok. I have also heard on here that SEEPs are 'ok with careful setup'. Peco's are more tolerant of setup. Pete, Very many thanks - that is exactly the information I was looking for. I will now be gradually replacing the PL-13 switches as and when they fail. Happy New Year to you, Cheers. Vivian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tomlinson Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said: There are some on here who would disagree with you, stating that they have never had an issue with poor stock/blade conductivity. What none ever seem to mention is whether they consider it routine maintenance to scrub them with a fibreglass pencil. I err towards your point of view. I think Peco supply them like they are because forcing a user to cut links, add different ones & a switch would mean they could not be sold RTR. & like above, I have had issues with PL-13 switches in the past: 2 out of 8 failed & I know of others who avoid them too. It is possible Peco have modified their construction to make them more reliable. To answer your question, I wouldn't consider this scrubing to be routine maintenance, relying as I do on rail contact alone for conductivity. I've found railside cleaning to be necessary after ballasting, also after track repair work when I've re-made the rail/ tiebar fastening after the plastic failed, and occasionally on one or two points after a period of inactivity. Most of my points in 17 years of operation haven't been so treated, although the top of the rails (along with all track) have been wiped periodically with a cloth wetted by Slaters Track and Mechanism Cleaning Fluid. The layout never leaves home, and indeed has never moved since the start of construction, which may have helped. John. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMS Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 My problem is that any solution to the conductivity problem needs to be surface-mounted and small. Microswitches and solenoids look pretty big to me! Peco P-11 surface mounted motors are commendably compact (but still hard to disguise) and do offer the option to connect a switch to the outside of the throw, but I'd really like the actual switch to go under the point whether manually or power operated. I've dismantled (just popped open) a PL-13 and am contemplating ways of using the resulting tiny pcb, it's connectors and/or the springy phosphor-bronze (?) contact piece to fudge an improved electrical connection under the point blades. The alternatives seem to involve ripping everything up to do complicated and subsequently inaccessible work under the track with buried microswitches, or use old-type electrofrog points (I have a few), or scrapping the lot and using insulfrog with extra toe-end wired sections. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanius Anglesmith Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 On 30/12/2019 at 22:56, cravensdmufan said: Would someone be very kind and post a photo of how they have physically connected a micro switch to a solenoid point motor to switch frog polarity please? Preferably under the baseboard. I understand the electrical wiring. I am currently using Peco PL-13 switches - but have had quite a few fail. Plus I don't like the fixing arrangement of gluing it onto the motor! One or two have fallen off, glue weakened with age I suppose. Thanks in advance. An alternative to Pete’s solution, I found that a wooden stirrer from one of the many coffee shops (Costa, Pret etc) was a perfect sliding fit between the legs of the Peco motor. I used a short length of stirrer with a hole drilled through to slip over the motor drive pin. The end of the stirrer then moves with the motor and acts upon a micro switch. I’ll try to take a photo tonight. My apologies to the OP as this post is probably of no use in their situation. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanius Anglesmith Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Photo as promised 2 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravensdmufan Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) On 03/01/2020 at 21:48, Titanius Anglesmith said: Photo as promised Thanks very much for posting those photos. Your method looks good and sturdy, and I will certainly give it a try. Just one question, please. Where did you get your microswitches? A link would be very useful - thanks very much. And apologies for the delay in my reply to your post. Edited January 31, 2020 by cravensdmufan Add missing words Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, cravensdmufan said: Thanks very much for posting those photos. Your method looks good and sturdy, and I will certainly give it a try. Just one question, please. Where did you get your microswitches? A link would be very useful - thanks very much. And apologies for my reply to your post. Rapid Electronics. They do free delivery for orders over £30 (which I find easy to achieve) & it usually arrives the next day. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravensdmufan Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said: Rapid Electronics. They do free delivery for orders over £30 (which I find easy to achieve) & it usually arrives the next day. Brilliant, thanks very much Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanius Anglesmith Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 4 hours ago, cravensdmufan said: Thanks very much for posting those photos. Your method looks good and sturdy, and I will certainly give it a try. Just one question, please. Where did you get your microswitches? A link would be very useful - thanks very much. And apologies for the delay in my reply to your post. I got my micro switches from an eBay seller named Bright Components, on recommendation from someone else. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ISW Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 5 hours ago, cravensdmufan said: Just one question, please. Where did you get your microswitches? A link would be very useful - thanks very much. And apologies for the delay in my reply to your post. I got mine from Switch Electronics (https://www.switchelectronics.co.uk/) also trading on eBay as LED-essential (https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/led-essential?_trksid=p2047675.l2559). Strangely, the prices are not the same from the 2 places, one will be cheaper than the other - from the same supplier! Good for us buyers though ... I bought their model 123003 "18mm Lever Sub—Miniature Microswitch SPDT" at ~20p each. Have used them for quite a few electrical bits for my layout (just a happy customer ...). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMS Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 I've finally got back to this job, and am about to use the microswitches suggested and illustrated by Steve W on this thread, posted 20 December last. The wiring will be as illustrated by bertiedog in his 29 May 2017 posting on this very useful and pertinent thread: But I'm no expert on electrical components, and would be very grateful for advice on where to solder to the wire from the frog and each of the connections from the rails that feed into the point. The microswitches have three pins and I need to know which to connect to where! For clarity, let's number them 1 to 3, starting from the "hinge" end of the arm: the operating pin being about mid-way between pins 1 and 2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Cane Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 The switch should be marked with on contact/terminal marked C or COM, this is connected to the frog. The others typically have NO and NC standing for Normally open and Normally closed. The NC terminal is connected to the rail that powers the frog when the switch is no actuated. I have included a picture of a microswitch installed on a recent retro fit to a new layout, in case it is of use to you or others looking to solve this problem. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMS Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 Thanks, Tony. With a magifying glass, I was able to make those out. For anyone with even worse close eyesight than me, they run C, NO, NC from the "hinge" end of the arm (1 to 3 respectively in my numbering system). The ambiguity in this context of the word "switch" had me baffled for a bit, so I'll try to recap. So it's frog to C. The rail you want connected to the frog when the microswitch arm is squashed shut is soldered to NO. The rail you want activated when the microswitch is open is soldered to NC? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Cane Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 Yes, those are the correct connections 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMS Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 Thanks, will try it tomorrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 And this is where a multimeter in the resistance mode, is a invaluable tool. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 21, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2020 6 hours ago, Sol said: And this is where a multimeter in the resistance mode, is a invaluable tool. This is correct and a case of the cheapest multimeter you can find, will still do this simplest of tasks. Every modeller should have one (Unless they use clockwork only!). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 8 hours ago, Sol said: And this is where a multimeter in the resistance mode, is a invaluable tool. I think we're in a minority on here who actually understand that a multimeter is more than just a voltmeter & has other uses. I use mine for resistance more often than for measuring voltage. In another thread, I dared to suggest measuring resistance instead of voltage to detect a fault & I got slammed for it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, kevinlms said: This is correct and a case of the cheapest multimeter you can find, will still do this simplest of tasks. Every modeller should have one (Unless they use clockwork only!). I agree that they are useful & something I find essential. Some modellers don't have much idea of how electricity works & to them, getting a layout running is trial & error. These are usually the ones who "accept" that it is the nature of model railways to go wrong. I don't mean that as a criticism; our minds all work differently & I have difficulty drawing the simplest of things unless I can measure it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMS Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 Thanks for the tips. I've got a multimeter, but no idea how to use it, even for the simplest of tasks, such as electrical continuity. The instructions may as well have been written in its native Korean! Found nothing useful on the internet either. Here's a photo of the jacks and settings. There are 2 probes. Please could you advise me what to do? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Ooh, an analogue meter. Nothing wrong with that at all. Connect the cables/test probes to the bottom 2 sockets (conventionally, the red cable goes into V-O-A & the black into common. If you are measuring voltages then it matters, but not for resistance/continuity. Forget about the DCA part. This is for measuring current. I have done this once in the past 20 years, you need to break the circuit to do it. A loco can easily draw more than 250mA too. When checking wiring, you want a very low resistance, so choose RX1 ohms. The meter will supply a small voltage & measure the current. A small resistance means a large current, so you are looking for the needle to swing all the way to the right & hot its end stop. It is designed to do this, so you won't damage it. Test it first by touching the 2 test probes together. If the circuit is good, the needle should move as quickly. Now to the layout. What we want is all (in reality, nearly all) the voltage from the controller to be applied to the loco, so we want the minimum resistance. This will never actually be zero, but hopefully so low that we can't measure it. If there is any resistance in the rails or wiring, then some of the controller's voltage will be wasted in pushing the current to the loco, which will make the train run more slowly. In order to test this, remove the controller & replace it with a wire. You can then go around the layout testing the resistance across the rails at various places. In all cases, you should see the needle fly right & hit the end stop. If you see this everywhere, then your layout should run nicely. If you do see a resistance anywhere, keep testing but get continually closer to where the controller was. You should see a sudden jump from resistance to no resistance. The issue will be between these 2 places. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titanius Anglesmith Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 34 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said: I think we're in a minority on here who actually understand that a multimeter is more than just a voltmeter & has other uses. I use mine for resistance more often than for measuring voltage. In another thread, I dared to suggest measuring resistance instead of voltage to detect a fault & I got slammed for it. +1. I don’t think my meter’s touched my layout yet, but my continuity tester (built when I was an apprentice!) has been on overtime. SWMBO is getting a bit fed up of hearing the beep beeeep beeeeeeeep though... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMS Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said: In order to test this, remove the controller & replace it with a wire Thanks a million, Pete. I got most of that excellent posting, but have two queries. I was unsure about the above quoted bit. I take it you are saying disconnect the main track feeds from the controller and join the feeds together temporarily to create a short circuit? The SC would then mean that more than minimal resistance anywhere indicates a problem? Secondly, does the red scroll wheel (Ohms Adjust) enter into this at all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 21, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, IMS said: Secondly, does the red scroll wheel (Ohms Adjust) enter into this at all? The Ohms Adjust is used to calibrate the multimeter - the purpose is to adjust to suit the battery, because it gradually goes flat. I hope that makes sense. To adjust it, connect the leads together, to make a short, as others have described. Adjust the wheel, so that the meter reads zero - one end of the scale, the right if I remember correctly. Once it's on zero, the meter is calibrated. So not hard. You can play with the wheel and it will probably go off scale, it won't harm the meter. Just set it to zero when you have finished experimenting. If it won't go to zero, that means the battery is flat, to some degree and needs replacing, otherwise you might get inconsistent results. You should adjust the meter on commencing a session, or check anytime you are confused by the readings. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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