LNWR 2-2-2 Locomotives

[1165Valour]

Does anyone know of any LNWR 2-2-2 locos, especially from the Northern Division, that looked similar to the Jenny Linds? I noticed this picture of Southern Division No. 35 looked somewhat similar to the Jennies.

Edited December 22, 2019 by GWRSwindon

[Devo63]

Southern Division nos. 208 & 209 were both 'Jenny Lind' type 2-2-2's delivered in 1848 by Wilson's. The same year they supplied 2-2-2's  201 to  204 to the Sth Div. These were outside cylinder locos of a similar design nicknamed 'Jenny Red Legs'. A quick check through my references has not come up with any on the Northern Division but I stand to be corrected.

 

Edit to add: The photo of no. 35 above could be a Sharp 2-2-2 delivered in the late 1840's. A lot of the fittings seem similar to the drawing of no. 4 from the Locomotive Magazine reproduced in the Mike Sharman book 'The London North Western Railway' from Oakwood Press. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Devo63
additional information

[webbcompound]

There were several  Northern division 2-2-2 types, mostly built at Crewe:  in the case of the Crewe 7ft,  and the Crewe 6ft. examples of both were transferred to the Southern Division when the boundary was moved north to Stafford in 1860, so there are drawings and details in Harry Jack's book on locos of the Southern Division. An example of the 6ft type can currently be seen at the Science Museum in London (although this photo shows it sitting on the turntable at NRM York)

Edited December 22, 2019 by webbcompound

[webbcompound]

And if anyone fancies rustling up a 3d print of the 6ft Crewe Passenger 2-2-2 I would be VERY interested.

 

[1165Valour]

Does anyone know if a picture exists of the two LNWR Jennies? 

[webbcompound]

there are lots. 12 photos in chapter1 of Talbots Illustrated History of LNWR Engines. In Talbot's LNWR MIscellany vol1 there are several photos of engineer's inspection saloons beingn pulled  by 6ft engines. The locos are also referred to as Trevithick 6ft and 7ft locos.

[PenrithBeacon]

11 hours ago, webbcompound said:

There were several  Northern division 2-2-2 types, mostly built at Crewe:  in the case of the Crewe 7ft,  and the Crewe 6ft. examples of both were transferred to the Southern Division when the boundary was moved north to Stafford in 1860, so there are drawings and details in Harry Jack's book on locos of the Southern Division. An example of the 6ft type can currently be seen at the Science Museum in London (although this photo shows it sitting on the turntable at NRM York)

Is that really a Crewe engine?

Cheers

[1165Valour]

11 hours ago, webbcompound said:

there are lots. 12 photos in chapter1 of Talbots Illustrated History of LNWR Engines. In Talbot's LNWR MIscellany vol1 there are several photos of engineer's inspection saloons beingn pulled  by 6ft engines. The locos are also referred to as Trevithick 6ft and 7ft locos.

Just for clarification, would this be the "true" Jenny Lind with inside cylinders, or the outside cylinder engines?

 

Does anyone know if what liveries they carried in the 1840s-50s on the Southern Division?

 

I ask all this because of an idea I and a friend had of a fictitious small railway in northern England buying a secondhand LNWR Single in green livery in the early 1850s, and wanted to see if it could work.

Edited December 23, 2019 by GWRSwindon

[Compound2632]

Are we talking about E.B. Wilson / David Joy Jennies here - of which I don't think the LNWR had any - or pre-Problem LNWR 2-2-2s in general, in which case the outside-cylindered, heavy front framing, Crewe Type dominates?

 

5&9 models did a kit for the genuine Jenny. Although noted as discontinued, I gather there is some possibility of it coming back. The major buyers of Jennies were the London & Brighton and the North Midland, and their successors.

 

Pretty much all these early companies were painting their engines green, so your fictitious second-hand purchaser need not be too particular about specifying where their Jenny came from.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Compound2632

[Devo63]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Are we talking about E.B. Wilson / David Joy Jennies here - of which I don't think the LNWR had any - or pre-Problem LNWR 2-2-2s in general, in which case the outside-cylindered, heavy front framing, Crewe Type dominates?

 

5&9 models did a kit for the genuine Jenny. Although noted as discontinued, I gather there is some possibility of it coming back. The major buyers of Jennies were the London & Brighton and the North Midland, and their successors.

 

Pretty much all these early companies were painting their engines green, so your fictitious second-hand purchaser need not be too particular about specifying where their Jenny came from.

The LNWR Southern Division had the two Wilson/Joy 'Jenny Lind', nos 208 & 209, mentioned in my previous post. They were standard 'off the shelf' designs from this company of which over 70 were built for various railways. There were also very similar locomotives built by various other manufacturers.

 

I keep hoping that Chris of 5&9 does bring the Jenny kit back as I've always wanted to build a model of the West Midland Railway (OW&W) 'Will Shakspere' (note spelling). As mentioned most of these early locos were supplied painted green with some of them having the flutes in the dome and safety valve picked out in other colours such as red. 

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, Devo63 said:

The LNWR Southern Division had the two Wilson/Joy 'Jenny Lind', nos 208 & 209, mentioned in my previous post.

 

Apologies, yes, from the Leeds (of course), Dewsbury & Manchester. H. Jack, Locomotives of the LNWR Southern Division (RCTS, 2001), pp. 148-9.

[Devo63]

I'm still interested in the history of no. 35 in the above photo. As I mentioned, it looks to be a Sharp Brothers product. Unfortunately my collection of information for the LNWR is very poor compared to my GWR library but I do have a bit of a soft spot (and I don't mean a bog) for the trains heading north from Euston.

[webbcompound]

12 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Is that really a Crewe engine?

Cheers

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co205741/grand-junction-railway-locomotive-columbine-steam-locomotive

 

[PenrithBeacon]

10 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co205741/grand-junction-railway-locomotive-columbine-steam-locomotive

 

It's actually a good deal more ambiguous than that. It was designed at Edge Hill by Buddicom not Allan and it wasn't the first locomotive built at Crewe. All a little odd.

Cheers

[webbcompound]

yeh, the first 20 or so were built at Edge Hill, and elsewhere there are claims it was the 20th loco built at Crewe OR the 20th of it's class, but since records are pretty sparse this still counts as a Crewe (type) loco, and in practical terms it counts as an LNWR loco as it spent most of its life there.

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by webbcompound

[PaulGWMLN94]

Just thought you guys might be interested in two early photographs that are currently due to be auctioned at Claydon Auctioneers (Lot 575) on the 6th November 2021. One photo appears to be of a Crewe 2-2-2, but the location of the station in the second early photo is a mystery as is the location of the Engine shed featured with the single loco. Two crew are discernable on the footplate. The Tender lining and point level might hold clues as to a date. The Cabside Engine number might be 1846? It's a shame that the buffer beam number has been is obscured. Any ideas?

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by PaulGWMLN94

[Compound2632]

Having had a look, it's an odd lot:

 

https://auctions.claydonauctioneers.com/catalogue/lot/d551273ef984da578430f9e9faf15379/726da10eb877106a4b2ee78edb55075b/general-goods-chattels-lot-575/

 

A fairly run-of-the-mill pair of posed photos of a 19" Goods and a Whale Precursor (I think); the station has a bit of an Ashby & Nuneaton Joint look to me - but I can't find a good match; it looks like there's a double junction to the right. The hipped roof in the corner looks like that of a Midland signal box, though some early LNWR boxes had hipped roofs too.

 

The engine looks to be a Trevithick 6 ft single, with the original boiler fittings but a Webb chimney. Some seem to have gone onto the duplicate list with 18xx numbers round about 1870, losing their names along the way, and being withdrawn before the end of that decade. Others were rebuilt by Webb and continued in service until the late 1880s; a few passed of these passed to the Engineers Department, one lasting until April 1903 as Engineer Lancaster. I'm afraid I don't have a complete guide to LNWR Locomotives that would help track this particular engine down; however, I'd say mid-1870s for this photo - which would fit with the opening of the Ashby & Nuneaton Joint in 1873. 

 

I'll post this on the LNWR Society Facebook page and see if it gathers any more expert opinion.

[Compound2632]

On 03/11/2021 at 19:48, Compound2632 said:

I'll post this on the LNWR Society Facebook page and see if it gathers any more expert opinion.

 

@PaulGWMLN94. OK. Wisdom has been received. There is a book: Peter Lee, Ashby & Nuneaton Joint Railway (Amberley Publishing, 2014) in which the station photo appears: it is Moira and Overseal station, at the northern end of the A&NJR; the lines in the foreground being the Midland Leicester & Burton line, the junction off to the right being Moira West Junction. The engine shed in the other photo is also Overseal, so it's quite likely it's the same Trevithick 2-4-0 in early Webb condition in both photos. See the 1900 OS 25" map; also the RCH junction diagram:

 

 

No particular comment on 19" Goods No. 2000. However, it was noticed that the Precursor has oil-burning equipment - the tank on the tender - making it probably No. 2585 Watt. However, another photo of this engine so equipped shows it fully lined out, which I don't think it is in this photo.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Compound2632