PO wagons brakes ???

[george stein]

Writing from USA so constrained by only seeing pictures. Do the Oxford Rail PO wagons, esp. 5,6 and 7 rail, come with brake gear on only one side? Seems to make them pre-grouping. Maybe pictures on websites not clear, but I think Big-Four period requires brakes on both sides of wagons.

George
North Carolina

P.S. Hope Father Christmas treats the forum members nice. (or is it Boxing Day when Brits get goodies??)

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, george stein said:

Writing from USA so constrained by only seeing pictures. Do the Oxford Rail PO wagons, esp. 5,6 and 7 rail, come with brake gear on only one side? Seems to make them pre-grouping. Maybe pictures on websites not clear, but I think Big-Four period requires brakes on both sides of wagons.

George
North Carolina

P.S. Hope Father Christmas treats the forum members nice. (or is it Boxing Day when Brits get goodies??)

Morton brake-gear  (two brake-shoes on one side only) was still being fitted to new-build BR stock at the end of the 1950s. A simple clutch allowed brakes to be appied ot released from either side.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Early wagons (PO or Company) were built with handbrakes one one side only. Some even with only one brake block. The requirement to have the brake operated from both sides of the wagon came in some time in the early 1900s but companies were given time to carry out the modification. WW1 got in the way of this to some extent so there were still single sided brake wagons about in the late 1920s. Some companies fitted a second brake lever to the other side of the wagon but at the same end as the original but the powers that be decreed that the brake levers should be at diagonally opposite corners of the wagon. Morton devised the system where a second brake handle could be fitted on the other side of the wagon and operate the original two blocks using a simple reversing clutch. Where there were bottom doors on a wagon, a cross shaft could not be fitted so that a second set of brake blocks and operating gear had to be fitted. 

 

What Oxford wagons I have handled have brake gear and handles on both sides. The Dapol 9ft wb coal wagons only have brake gear on one side with no handle on the other.

[MartinTrucks]

Regarding handbrakes on PO wagons, I asked this question on a UK chat-group earlier this year:

'Although I am aware that the fitting of handbrake levers on both sides of PO coal wagons was mandatory for new build vehicles from about 1911(?), was there a date by which retro-fitting was mandatory?
I noticed a photo on page 69 of John Arkell's 'Private Owner Wagons of the South-East'. taken at Hythe, Kent and dated 1936 showing an 'Anderson' wagon with brake levers still on one side only'.

 

I received the following reply from my Bluebell Railway colleague John Arkell, who is the HMRS Steward for PO wagons:

'It was originally intended to make a second set mandatory by 1926 but the private traders protested at the expense and timescale and so a derogation was given till 1931. Even this was not enough and the final derogation was 1938 when a seven year exam for all wagons was started. Any wagon not having a second set of brakes automatically failed the exam and had to be taken out of service or converted. It was also the date that wagons that had been converted from Dumb Buffers were to be scrapped, these wagons would have been built before 1887 and converted to spring buffers before 1914, though a few survived WW2 to be scrapped by BR in the early 1950s'.

 

Hope this helps.

Best regards and Merry Christmas!

Martin

 

BTW, in the UK, Santa visits us overnight Dec24/25 so presents are normally opened on Christmas morning. However (according to the latest TV news) the Royal Family will open their presents at Sandringham tonight!

 

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by MartinTrucks

[Roy Langridge]

5 hours ago, MartinTrucks said:

BTW, in the UK, Santa visits us overnight Dec24/25 so presents are normally opened on Christmas morning. However (according to the latest TV news) the Royal Family will open their presents at Sandringham tonight!

 

 

Don’t forget that owing to environmental pressures, Santa now uses a bi-mode train in the uk:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S73184/2019-12-24
 

Roy

[truffy]

5 hours ago, MartinTrucks said:

BTW, in the UK, Santa visits us overnight Dec24/25 so presents are normally opened on Christmas morning. However (according to the latest TV news) the Royal Family will open their presents at Sandringham tonight!

 

That's because they're German!

[Poor Old Bruce]

15 hours ago, truffy said:

 

That's because they're German!

 

... and Greek!

[george stein]

Thanks for informative comments on brakes.  Did not intend to spark comment between monarchists & republicans -- that's for wargamers doing Roundheads & Cavaliers.   Hah.   Happy New Year to all.

 

George

North Carolina

[The Johnster]

On 22/12/2019 at 18:42, george stein said:

P.S. Hope Father Christmas treats the forum members nice. (or is it Boxing Day when Brits get goodies??)

It's the 25th when we get the pressies here, George, but my partner is Polish and they get theirs on the 26th.  The big meal is on xmas eve, though, and is traditionally carp.  These are bought (or caught) live about 3 weeks in advance and kept in the bath, corn fed to taste right while the family performs it's ablutions in the sink.  She is horrified at the commercialisation of the holiday here!

 

Santa has been instructed not to bring me anything, not because I've been naughty, but because I'm waiting for a Bachmann 94xx...

[Fat Controller]

3 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

It's the 25th when we get the pressies here, George, but my partner is Polish and they get theirs on the 26th.  The big meal is on xmas eve, though, and is traditionally carp.  These are bought (or caught) live about 3 weeks in advance and kept in the bath, corn fed to taste right while the family performs it's ablutions in the sink.  She is horrified at the commercialisation of the holiday here!

 

Santa has been instructed not to bring me anything, not because I've been naughty, but because I'm waiting for a Bachmann 94xx...

Until WW2, carp from E Europe were brought in by ferry-wagons to the UK . The Hungarians were particularly active, and even built some new wagons in anticipation of the traffic resuming

[Mark Saunders]

7 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Until WW2, carp from E Europe were brought in by ferry-wagons to the UK . The Hungarians were particularly active, and even built some new wagons in anticipation of the traffic resuming

 

I am sure that I have seen a reference that a Hungarian live fish van was stranded in the UK at the outbreak of the war in 1939.

[The Johnster]

On 25/12/2019 at 21:35, george stein said:

Thanks for informative comments on brakes.  Did not intend to spark comment between monarchists & republicans -- that's for wargamers doing Roundheads & Cavaliers.   Hah.   Happy New Year to all.

 

George

North Carolina

Being of a republican persuasion myself, I thing you are perhaps trivialising matters because, as a US citizen rather than a British subject, you enjoy and probably take for granted freedoms which do not actually exist in this alleged democracy.  We tried being a republic once, for real, not wargaming, and it was so unpleasant that we had the monarchs back as soon as we could!

 

You are, for instance, of the same status in your society and can demand the same respect as anyone else; you are not obliged to address anyone as 'my lord', 'your grace', 'your highness', 'your Royal highness' with obligatory capital letter, or 'Your Majesty'.  You are allowed to own property, meaning a portion of the planet's surface and the mining rights to anything beneath it in a sort of tapered shape going down to the centre of the earth, as opposed to paying uncontrolled ground rent on the surface area and leasing a property constructed on it for a set period ('leasehold') with the permission of the landowner who has been granted the property by the crown because his ancestors killed a lot of my ancestors, or 'freeholding' the surface area having bought out the lease from the leaseholder, freehold being permission, from the crown of course, who else, to own property on that land in perpetuity.  In any case the mineral rights rest with the crown via whatever person or organisation it has been granted to Lord Bute where I live but I'm out of the game anyway as a private rent tenant.  Land ownership for freeholders who are not of the gentry is illusory in the UK.

 

I am not even allowed, if I am being a pedant (and I am without doubt a revolting pedant), to style myself as a gentleman, this being the correct way to address a person of no rank who owns the freehold of a property.  I am not allowed to hunt or fish free because all game is owned by the people the crown has granted it to (Lord Bute where I live) and I have to pay whatever the asking price is for permits from those he has authorised.  Their gamekeepers are allowed to shoot at me if I poach.

 

You have a two level upper and lower house system of government, but unlike ours your upper house is composed of elected people, not persons of rank appointed to it having the ability to refuse to ratify legislation that has been passed through the democratically elected lower house.  You can impeach your head of state for any level of wrongdoing, but our head of state can only be removed (literally in Charles I's case) for Treason, debatable in legal terms as Treason can only be against the head of state, the crown, though like you we work on case law and Charles' trial is the current case.

 

I'm not intending to spark comment here either, there are plenty of other places and many loyal subjects of the crown to contend with, just pointing out that there are significant differences in our basic citizen's rights and obligations.

 

And even by my liberal standards it's a bit off topic from wagon brakes...

 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

6 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

I am sure that I have seen a reference that a Hungarian live fish van was stranded in the UK at the outbreak of the war in 1939

With the Hungarian live fish?  Serves 'em right, they joined the Axis voluntarily...

 

Carp for xmas seems quite common in Central European countries; Kasia insists on Poland being correctly described as being in Central as opposed to Eastern Europe, which we only consider it to have been because of it's inclusion in the Soviet Bloc post 1945.

[Bernard Lamb]

The big day is Christmas Eve for my family.

But we also do Christmas Dinner English style on Christmas Day and thus get the best of both worlds.

Carp is reserved for New Years Eve along with Smoked Eel served with potato salad.

Bernard 

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

I am sure that I have seen a reference that a Hungarian live fish van was stranded in the UK at the outbreak of the war in 1939.

Probably from me; I met someone who had been dealing with these sorts of things at the FO. He wrote several articles on modelling ferry vehicles.

[Wickham Green]

On 29/12/2019 at 16:11, The Johnster said:

............ You are, for instance, of the same status in your society and can demand the same respect as anyone else; you are not obliged to address anyone as 'my lord', 'your grace', 'your highness', 'your Royal highness' with obligatory capital letter, or 'Your Majesty'.  .............

 

 

You try addressing that chap Trump as 'Oi Mush' - an' see what happens ................................

[The Johnster]

I would never address the Ginger Tw*tweasel so politely as 'Oi Mush', though I would be very respectful to his secret service guys.  I like the US armed forces principle that one can insult any higher rank in any way one likes so long as one prefixes and suffixes the comment with 'sir'.  I had a conversation many years ago in a pub about this sort of thing with a stereotype Texan guy who addressed me as 'sir', which I found odd.  He explained 'Where I come from, if you ain't sir, why, you ain't nuttin but a boy!'!

 

Fair enough, I thought...

[george stein]

Gentlemen:

 

One of the best things about this forum is that (generally) we avoid what we in the USA call "religion and politics."  So, back to brakes on Dapol, Oxford Rail, etc. rolling stock.  Thanks for the informative comments.  Speaking of the Gingertwit and his idea that modern lightbulbs are what makes him look orange (true, he really said that), I have discovered that using Krylon matte UV protecting spray helps preserve your Metcalfe and downloaded cardstock buildings better than plain matte sprays.  Seems to help resisting the flourescent lights we often use.

 

George

North Carolina

[Siberian Snooper]

On 02/01/2020 at 13:04, The Johnster said:

I would never address the Ginger Tw*tweasel so politely as 'Oi Mush', though I would be very respectful to his secret service guys.  I like the US armed forces principle that one can insult any higher rank in any way one likes so long as one prefixes and suffixes the comment with 'sir'.  I had a conversation many years ago in a pub about this sort of thing with a stereotype Texan guy who addressed me as 'sir', which I found odd.  He explained 'Where I come from, if you ain't sir, why, you ain't nuttin but a boy!'!

 

Fair enough, I thought...

 

You can do the same in the RN, I heard a CPO say to a Royal 2nd Lieutenant,  "your a f***ing ###t, sir." I don't know if there was any fallout from the comment, but if I'd been called as a witness, I would have agreed with the chief on that occasion.

 

 

[The Johnster]

Rum, buggery, and the lash.  

[Siberian Snooper]

13 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Rum, buggery, and the lash.  

 

There's probably a few that would enjoy those activities,  I'll just have the rum, thank you.

 

 

[Edwardian]

On 29/12/2019 at 16:11, The Johnster said:

Being of a republican persuasion myself, I thing you are perhaps trivialising matters because, as a US citizen rather than a British subject, you enjoy and probably take for granted freedoms which do not actually exist in this alleged democracy.  We tried being a republic once, for real, not wargaming, and it was so unpleasant that we had the monarchs back as soon as we could!

 

 

 

 

Yes, enslaved by hereditary monarchy and all but crushed by the Norman yoke, we can but cast an envious eye across the herring pond; I mean, an elected head of state, what could possibly go wrong?

 

You can have:

 

- single lever, single brake block, Scotch brake

 

- twin brake blocks one side and lever one side

 

- twin brake blocks one side but levers both sides

 

- twin clocks and levers both sides

 

I tend to associate the latter with the Grouping era so far as POs are concerned. 

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

There's probably a few that would enjoy those activities,  I'll just have the rum, thank you.

 

 

They've probably got all sorts of clubs for it in that London...

 

I'm with you on the matter of rum, and nothing is to be read into my choice of Mount Gay as favourite!

[Ken.W]

On 03/01/2020 at 20:57, Edwardian said:

 

Yes, enslaved by hereditary monarchy and all but crushed by the Norman yoke, we can but cast an envious eye across the herring pond; I mean, an elected head of state, what could possibly go wrong?

 

You can have:

 

- single lever, single brake block, Scotch brake

 

- twin brake blocks one side and lever one side

 

- twin brake blocks one side but levers both sides

 

- twin clocks and levers both sides

 

I tend to associate the latter with the Grouping era so far as POs are concerned. 

 

Presumably the latter always ran on time

[The Johnster]

On 03/01/2020 at 20:57, Edwardian said:

what could possibly go wrong?

 

Same as with an unelected one; I'd nominate Stephen, John, Richards 2 and 3, Charles 1, James 2 (none of the Stewarts were much to write home about), George 4 (drunk syphylitic glutton, as   was the wife murderer Henry 8) and Edward 8 (nazi sympathiser) as not being particularly beneficial to anyone.  Charles was so bad he was executed, and John lost a good bit of the country to the French before his death when the nobles rallied around his son, Henry 3.  It is not often mentioned in school history lessons that the Dauphin of France was crowned as King of England at Westminster Abbey by the Archbishop of Canterbury with the full support of the lords, temporal and spiritual, which makes him the legitimate king by the standards of the day!

 

Richard 2 suffered from mental illness and was almost certainly murdered on the orders of his successor Henry 4, and you'd have to question the death of William 2 in a 'hunting accident', given the alacrity with which Henry left the scene and gained control of the exchequer at Winchester.  Even Richard 3, the lionheart, often touted as the ideal English King along with Edward 3, only spent a very short time on English soil, preferring the Crusade and his lands in France, and bankrupted the country by allowing himself to be captured and held to ransom; this is what undermined his successor John, though that king did not do much to rectify the situation!  Edward 1, much vaunted hero and hammer of the Scots, behaved exactly as Hitler did to England's Jewish population, centuries before the Spanish Inquisition, even down to making them wear Star of David badges before evicting them from the country.  Oliver Cromwell invited them back.

 

While we are on the subject of the Great Parliamentarian, Oliver Cromwell, whose statue stands in Parliament Square as a champion of democracy, he was anything but, a tyrant who was never elected to anything and who shut parliament by force (you want warts and all, I'll give you 'em; this guy was an insult to warts).  He was directly and personally responsible for acts of genocide in Ireland that aroused criticism even in those days.  History as taught by the national curriculum doesn't bear close examination; we are teaching our children lies, damned lies, and simply airbrushing inconvenient facts out, which is worse than statistics.

 

Elected representatives looking a bit more attractive now, aren't they?