"Route Any Permitted"

[Joseph_Pestell]

In my newly single state, I am off to visit family for Xmas, taking the train from Hereford or Ledbury to Dover (which should be interesting with Paddington closed yet again).

 

My ticket is "route any permitted". Kind and very competent clerk at Hereford station told me that I can travel via BNS which I may well do as likely to be rather quicker than via Oxford (change) and Bicester.

 

My question is, without help at a booking office, how does the average "customer" know find out what is and what is not a permitted route? 

[Robert Shrives]

http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide

 

Will give you an answer - probably !!!  

 

If you consider the idea of no doubling back unless that is all the trains allow, taking shortest , quickest or least changes  then you are going to be in the park.   

 

I recall in the micro managing era of railtrack and the strategic authorities of the day it was going to be abolished and every trip had a formal route only and no off routing would be allowed, reality and sheer volume put paid to that Orwellian effort !  Mind you always possible to get help from train crew - ahh another idea up in smoke.    

Robert 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Many thanks. First bookmark on my new laptop.

[Nearholmer]

National Rail Enquiries can help too.

 

Here is what it suggests for tomorrow morning.

 

ignore the underground bit - it’s far quicker and less busy to walk ten minutes through the backstreets, probably allowing you to be on a train half an hour sooner out of St Pancras.

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Gwiwer]

"AP" is something I get asked about almost every day.  Even the more commonly printed "Any Permitted" doesn't explain things clearly.  Sometimes it needs a degree in railway-ology to sort out.  What does "AP Slough" mean?

 

Typically the more expensive your ticket the more flexibility you have on route.  Anytime tickets will almost always be routed "AP" although in most cases the passenger will select the route pre-determined by their booking or the one they have always used because it is shortest.  

 

London Terminals to Brighton AP includes via Arundel and Ford / Littlehampton (but not Barnham because of the double-back) or via Lewes but not via Battle and Eastbourne.  London - Portsmouth AP includes via Winchester or via Hove or via Arundel because direct trains are available despite the lengthy journey times of some.  

 

AP Slough, incidentally, is an example of routing via a specified point which must be passed through (not necessarily stopped at) but otherwise the route is Any Permitted.  So Paddington - Penzance is routed AP Slough but is otherwise valid via Bristol or Castle Cary.  Should one request a Waterloo - Penzance ticket (as I did a few times when the overnight train used Waterloo) it is AP but includes Waterloo - Windsor - Slough walking between the stations in Windsor,  and also includes (because it does not specify "AP Slough") Waterloo - Basingstoke - Reading and onwards plus Waterloo - Exeter via the LSWR route and onwards.  

 

I have even come across "AP Kensington Olympia" which was a Gatwick Airport - Edinburgh ticket priced "Not via London Terminals".  Provided one used the Southern service via Kenny O to Watford or Milton Keynes any reasonable route northwards was permitted though most likely on the direct West Coast service or with one further change at Carlisle.  

 

As ever ticketing is a minefield.  

[roythebus]

I tried National Rail for a relatively simple trip Ashford Kent (AFK) to Denmark Hill (DMK). One suggestion was HS1 to Stratford, DLR to Lewisham, SE to London Bridge, TL to DMK. cost= a lot, as via HS1 and LLondon terminal. Another was AFK-STP via HS1, TL the DMK, more expensive, but a bit quicker.

 

The most direct route is AFK to Bromley South (BMS), cross platform to DMK train to Blackfriars. Anytime return with senior railcard £18.85, journey time about 1hr 52. Cost via HS1 etc was about £28 with railcard and took the same amount of time!

 

Ashford (AFK) to Portsmouth Harbour, 3 routes, HS1 to STP, tube to Waterloo, SWT to PMH was about £78 return. Or AFK-Waterloo E, SWT to PMH, £68. AFK-via Rye, Brighton, Ford, change at Brighton and Havant, £22 return without railcard, also 10 minutes faster than any route via London! Gotta be one of the cheapest standard fares in Britain, 200 miles for £22.

[Nearholmer]

NRE is interesting, isn't it?

 

Goodness knows how the algorithm works, but it dreams-up routes that I certainly couldn't think of. Sometimes, they are actually very good ideas, as in a case where it saved me a good hour, and avoided London, after I'd just missed a train at York.

 

It does give the alternatives, though, so the user gets the choice.

 

Most fun can be had from it by specifying a journey to a place served by barely any trains, one a day ideally, with a start time late in the evening ...... it will cough-out train rides all round Britain to keep you moving all night. Mind you, I've never actually wanted to take any one of these nocturnal rambles!

[LBRJ]

It used to be Any Permissible route which was a tiny bit clearer terminology... As long as you had access to the Routing Guide.....

 

As far as I recall, as long as the holder of such a ticket was sort of somewhere on the route implied they were OK.

 

If one was travelling from Redruth to Aberdeen then pretty much anywhere that was not in Wales or East Anglia was on route  

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

12 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

"AP" is something I get asked about almost every day.  Even the more commonly printed "Any Permitted" doesn't explain things clearly.  Sometimes it needs a degree in railway-ology to sort out.  What does "AP Slough" mean?

 

 

 

I have even come across "AP Kensington Olympia" which was a Gatwick Airport - Edinburgh ticket priced "Not via London Terminals".  Provided one used the Southern service via Kenny O to Watford or Milton Keynes any reasonable route northwards was permitted though most likely on the direct West Coast service or with one further change at Carlisle.  

 

As ever ticketing is a minefield.  

I have come across that routing several times for local London area tickets.

Southern tickets are quite often much cheaper than routes via London Terminals.

The irony is that the Southern MK service is often cancelled.

When this happens it is a case of any thing goes and I have resorted to some very odd routes to get home without an unreasonable delay. 

I have always found the station staff to be very helpful when faced with these situations.

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

NRE is interesting, isn't it?

 

Goodness knows how the algorithm works, but it dreams-up routes that I certainly couldn't think of. Sometimes, they are actually very good ideas, as in a case where it saved me a good hour, and avoided London, after I'd just missed a train at York.

 

It does give the alternatives, though, so the user gets the choice.

 

Most fun can be had from it by specifying a journey to a place served by barely any trains, one a day ideally, with a start time late in the evening ...... it will cough-out train rides all round Britain to keep you moving all night. Mind you, I've never actually wanted to take any one of these nocturnal rambles!

The barely served places, ideally therefore on lightly used/little known about lines, were the ones you always specified in the good old days of applying for a free pass.  With careful selection of place names and using two passes of your allocation at a time it was possible to travel around a large percentage off the BR network because many ticket examining staff hadn't got a clue where Achnasheen was and were totally stumped by Berney Arms, or most places in Wales beginning 'Ll...',   while to them Carbis Bay could be anywhere on the British Coast.  Just add the magic 'via London' (which often meant the longest route) and you could go just about anyeverywhere. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[Gwiwer]

3 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I have come across that routing several times for local London area tickets.

Southern tickets are quite often much cheaper than routes via London Terminals.

The irony is that the Southern MK service is often cancelled.

When this happens it is a case of any thing goes and I have resorted to some very odd routes to get home without an unreasonable delay. 

I have always found the station staff to be very helpful when faced with these situations.

Bernard

Discretion applies unless CSL2 is activated.  If one train is cancelled the passenger might have an hour to wait but go by the booked route and be eligible for Delay Repay.  If they were to be permitted via London Terminals they might well be delayed by the same amount but be technically off route.

 

When the route is blocked (and I agree this happens rather too often for comfort) or major disruption anywhere causes bigger problems and little or no service is possible then CSL2 (Customer Service Level 2), which is an inter-TOC agreement to my understanding, is activated and all passengers may travel via any reasonable route including acceptance on London Underground between terminals but not intermediately.  Croydon Stations to Crewe would be accepted by TfL / LU at Victoria and Euston in such circumstances but not at Oxford Circus if one fancied a spot of shopping on the way.

 

When you hear announcements advising passengers to use "Any reasonable alternative route" then CSL2 is activated.  It can also be applied to certain bus operators and in the case of London is non-specific but "in the area of".  Drivers are alerted by radio call and a code provided meaning that any bus operating within, into or even near to a disrupted area will accept NR tickets on a reasonable line of route.  Other standard bus acceptances I am aware of are Brighton & Hove buses between stations in that city and Shoreham, Newhaven, Lewes or Eastbourne as appropriate and even Uckfield, Crowborough and Tunbridge Wells if needs be, plus Stagecoach bus 700 between Brighton and all coastal towns west to Littlehampton.  Another regularly-used one is the 4/4X between Reading and Wokingham.  There will be many such local arrangements around the country.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Gwiwer

[101]

21 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The barely served places, ideally therefore on lightly used/little known about lines, were the ones you always specified in the good old days of applying for a free pass.  With careful selection of place names and using two passes of your allocation at a time it was possible to travel around a large percentage off the BR network because many ticket examining staff hadn't got a clue where Achnasheen was and were totally stumped by Berney Arms, or most places in Wales beginning 'Ll...',   while to them Carbis Bay could be anywhere on the British Coast.  Just add the magic 'via London' (which often meant the longest route) and you could go just about anyeverywhere. 

 

And with a bit of luck they wouldn't stamp it either, so that you could return it unused and then do it all over again! 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, 101 said:

 

And with a bit of luck they wouldn't stamp it either, so that you could return it unused and then do it all over again! 

Or it would have so many holes and other punch marks you couldn't read what it said anyway

[jonhall]

On 24/12/2019 at 11:13, The Stationmaster said:

The barely served places, ideally therefore on lightly used/little known about lines, were the ones you always specified in the good old days of applying for a free pass.  With careful selection of place names and using two passes of your allocation at a time it was possible to travel around a large percentage off the BR network because many ticket examining staff hadn't got a clue where Achnasheen was and were totally stumped by Berney Arms, or most places in Wales beginning 'Ll...',   while to them Carbis Bay could be anywhere on the British Coast.  Just add the magic 'via London' (which often meant the longest route) and you could go just about anyeverywhere. 

 

An acquaintance of mine usually relied on 'Bowling' to 'Bat&Ball' or v/v, on the basis that those who knew where one was, were usually a bit vague on the other!

 

My own 'any permitted' anomaly is Thames Ditton to Egham, were the off Peak return is £10.90 'Any Permitted' (Via Clapham Junction or Via Surbiton and Weybridge), but the more restrictive 'Via Weybridge' is  £11.50! Interestingly the anomaly has been removed for the 'anytime' fare, but it used to have the same bias.

 

The singles are also 'directional' Thames Ditton to Egham is £8.30 but Egham to Thames Ditton is only £7.20.

 

Jon

[The Evil Bus Driver]

On 24/12/2019 at 12:51, Gwiwer said:

Discretion applies unless CSL2 is activated.  If one train is cancelled the passenger might have an hour to wait but go by the booked route and be eligible for Delay Repay.  If they were to be permitted via London Terminals they might well be delayed by the same amount but be technically off route.

 

 Other standard bus acceptances I am aware of are Brighton & Hove buses between stations in that city and Shoreham, Newhaven, Lewes or Eastbourne as appropriate and even Uckfield, Crowborough and Tunbridge Wells if needs be.

Yes I used to work for Brighton and Hove, we used to get the radio call, often quite sarcastic "Southern have broken their train set again" was a good one. But generally it was either that or a text message via the GPS system., It meant if you were a 6 or a 7 you got away from Brighton station double quick or you  risked being inundated.

Edited December 25, 2019 by The Evil Bus Driver

[DY444]

It's got to be right up there with the most confusing terms of a ticketing system full of confusion.  Most non-railway people I talk to think it means Any Route Is Permitted - ie you can go whichever way you like.  Banbury to Oxford via New St, Bristol Parkway and Didcot for example.  When I explain that it actually means Any Of The Permitted Routes and there is a set of rules which define the set of permitted routes between any two points, the usual reaction is bewilderment as to how an average member of the travelling public is expected to know that. 

 

What makes it worse is that there are quite a few staff and TOCs who don't know what the permitted routes are for many journeys.  There is more than one instance of TOCs initiating prosecution proceedings against alleged fare evaders only to back down quite late in the day when they belatedly realised the alleged offender was on a permitted route.  Cross Country was one of the worst for this as for a long time it seemed not to understand that many stations in the Midlands and North have permitted routes to London into Paddington and Marylebone via Leamington. 

Edited December 26, 2019 by DY444

[Bernard Lamb]

I have seen at least two references to the problems with Southern as well as my own comment.

A question for those in the know.

What is the legal situation of abandoning a train journey at a station that is not the end of the journey as per the ticket nor a London Zone station where exiting is allowed and taking a bus to get home?

I travel with a small group from time to time and have done this on a couple of occasions in the last year.

Two other members of the group have done the same on other occasions,

As all the people have bus passes there is no additional cost so it can be  the cheapest and quickest choice.

Again I point out that the station staff have been very helpful when they have been informed as to why you want to take this action.

Of course if you are young and fit a few hours delay is a minor problem, but at my age with various medical conditions I would probably end up in hospital if faced with such a delay.

Bernard

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 24/12/2019 at 11:13, The Stationmaster said:

The barely served places, ideally therefore on lightly used/little known about lines, were the ones you always specified in the good old days of applying for a free pass.  With careful selection of place names and using two passes of your allocation at a time it was possible to travel around a large percentage off the BR network because many ticket examining staff hadn't got a clue where Achnasheen was and were totally stumped by Berney Arms, or most places in Wales beginning 'Ll...',   while to them Carbis Bay could be anywhere on the British Coast.  Just add the magic 'via London' (which often meant the longest route) and you could go just about anyeverywhere. 

For those who started when BR still operated ships 'To Continental Port,' was a useful destination. Combined with an obscure station in north-west Scotland it covered most of BR and any continental seaport served by Sealink.

When I went on an unplanned journey I would carry single tickets something like Continental Port to Kyle of Lochalsh, Kyle of Lochalsh to Penzance, Penzance to Pwllheli and Pwllheli to Continetal Port. You could show a valid ticket for about 90% of BR with a combination like that.

[The Stationmaster]

On 26/12/2019 at 08:18, DY444 said:

It's got to be right up there with the most confusing terms of a ticketing system full of confusion.  Most non-railway people I talk to think it means Any Route Is Permitted - ie you can go whichever way you like.  Banbury to Oxford via New St, Bristol Parkway and Didcot for example.  When I explain that it actually means Any Of The Permitted Routes and there is a set of rules which define the set of permitted routes between any two points, the usual reaction is bewilderment as to how an average member of the travelling public is expected to know that. 

 

What makes it worse is that there are quite a few staff and TOCs who don't know what the permitted routes are for many journeys.  There is more than one instance of TOCs initiating prosecution proceedings against alleged fare evaders only to back down quite late in the day when they belatedly realised the alleged offender was on a permitted route.  Cross Country was one of the worst for this as for a long time it seemed not to understand that many stations in the Midlands and North have permitted routes to London into Paddington and Marylebone via Leamington. 

It used to be a lot easier when every booking office held a copy of 'The Book of Routes' - a fascinating piece of reading during the quieter times (if you had any) plus there used to be some information in 'The Ticket Inspetors' Handbook' which was a fascinating tome which even made it to the days of loose style publication and contained some even more fascinating stuff.

 

Another area which is of considerable interest - because it is almost entirely down to history - concerns teh availability of 'National Rail' tickets (mainly passes as it happens) over lines nowadays operated by TfL.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 23/12/2019 at 19:59, Nearholmer said:

National Rail Enquiries can help too.

 

Here is what it suggests for tomorrow morning.

 

ignore the underground bit - it’s far quicker and less busy to walk ten minutes through the backstreets, probably allowing you to be on a train half an hour sooner out of St Pancras.

 

 

Only just seen this as I return via Reading and the Cotswold Line. Your suggestion was also that given by the clerk at Hereford and it worked very well. I think it will be my default option for any future trips to the South-East.

It was my first Pendolino Experience. A far nicer train than the 800s that Avanti want to buy for the West Coast.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

On a similar theme.

In the 60's and 70's there used to be (in the Sheffield division at least) weekly runabout tickets which only specified a list of the locations you could travel to on a folding card.

You didn't have to specify or pre -state your destination when you set off, so for us train spotters, a ticket with a list of destinations such as Chester, Morecambe,  Southport , Blackpool and a few other esoteric places, was a ticket to ride. Depending on where you were when your ticket was inspected the ultimate destination could be created by us at the drop of a hat!

 

Mike.

[Gwiwer]

Weekly Runabout and Rail Rover tickets usually had clearly defined limits advertised in the (pre-website) brochures. But there were anomalies. I used an LMR Rover one summer. At the time BR still operated the Vale of Rheidol line and this was included on the map showing validity.  But upon presenting the ticket at Aberystwyth I was smartly advised that I also needed a seat ticket. Cue hasty deviation via the booking office where I was relieved of £2 for that privilege and I duly took my seat. On a train which was almost empty up and back. 
 

That same week I boarded a Leeds-bound train in Sheffield. Leeds was ER but permitted territory on an LMR Rover by routes to the west.   My train was in permitted territory as far as Wakefield Kirkgate but then took a route via Castleford to Leeds which was definitely “off route”. And guess where I met the TTI?  My innocent plea of “but Sheffield and Leeds are ok and I don’t know which way the train goes” was met with a muttering about “spotters. Always spotters. You should check before you get on”. But on this occasion I wasn’t required to pay the excess. 
 

A new one on me cropped up today.  Paddington is devoid of trains due to holiday engineering work. So is Salisbury. Routes to the south-west are therefore a bit limited. Enter passenger just arrived from Gatwick with a ticket purchased via a third-party app routed to Tiverton Parkway “AP Salisbury”.  Ordinarily that would require the change they made at Clapham Junction and another at Westbury given the time of travel. Today the option was bus Andover to Yeovil, a wait to travel via Exeter, walk Central to St Davids there and back-track. Or taxi between Yeovil stations and a long wait at Castle Cary. No option via Paddington nor via Southampton so the only option open was off route via Reading. Which would have been a couple of hours quicker than any other route. 

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Weekly Runabout and Rail Rover tickets usually had clearly defined limits advertised in the (pre-website) brochures. But there were anomalies. I used an LMR Rover one summer. At the time BR still operated the Vale of Rheidol line and this was included on the map showing validity.  But upon presenting the ticket at Aberystwyth I was smartly advised that I also needed a seat ticket. Cue hasty deviation via the booking office where I was relieved of £2 for that privilege and I duly took my seat. On a train which was almost empty up and back. 
 

That same week I boarded a Leeds-bound train in Sheffield. Leeds was ER but permitted territory on an LMR Rover by routes to the west.   My train was in permitted territory as far as Wakefield Kirkgate but then took a route via Castleford to Leeds which was definitely “off route”. And guess where I met the TTI?  My innocent plea of “but Sheffield and Leeds are ok and I don’t know which way the train goes” was met with a muttering about “spotters. Always spotters. You should check before you get on”. But on this occasion I wasn’t required to pay the excess. 
 

A new one on me cropped up today.  Paddington is devoid of trains due to holiday engineering work. So is Salisbury. Routes to the south-west are therefore a bit limited. Enter passenger just arrived from Gatwick with a ticket purchased via a third-party app routed to Tiverton Parkway “AP Salisbury”.  Ordinarily that would require the change they made at Clapham Junction and another at Westbury given the time of travel. Today the option was bus Andover to Yeovil, a wait to travel via Exeter, walk Central to St Davids there and back-track. Or taxi between Yeovil stations and a long wait at Castle Cary. No option via Paddington nor via Southampton so the only option open was off route via Reading. Which would have been a couple of hours quicker than any other route. 

Surely the normal route Gatwick - Tiverton Parkway would be via Reading (unless it is specified as via London) and Salisbury is a permitted route (hence it is shown as 'AP Salisbury').  Because Gatwick Reading isn't possible today - for whatever reason - the logical alternative is via Clapham Jcn thence to Reading. 

[Gwiwer]

32 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Surely the normal route Gatwick - Tiverton Parkway would be via Reading (unless it is specified as via London) and Salisbury is a permitted route (hence it is shown as 'AP Salisbury').  Because Gatwick Reading isn't possible today - for whatever reason - the logical alternative is via Clapham Jcn thence to Reading. 

 

Gatwick to destinations served directly from Reading should be routed via the North Downs service.  It is surprising how many folk either are unaware of that service or choose not to wait up to an hour for it.  The result is they route via Clapham.  Some apps overlook the direct service and route via Clapham anyway; some apps including NR will offer routes via Clapham in addition to the direct Reading service and typically the passenger (often unfamiliar with the UK and/or tired after a long flight) simply boards the first departure listed and follows the directions.  

 

I understand "AP Salisbury" to mean that the route taken must include travel via Salisbury but is otherwise Any Permitted.  Just as "AP Slough" requires the user to travel through that location between (usually) London and points west and not make use of the routes via Bracknell or Andover.  

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

Gatwick to destinations served directly from Reading should be routed via the North Downs service.  It is surprising how many folk either are unaware of that service or choose not to wait up to an hour for it.  The result is they route via Clapham.  Some apps overlook the direct service and route via Clapham anyway; some apps including NR will offer routes via Clapham in addition to the direct Reading service and typically the passenger (often unfamiliar with the UK and/or tired after a long flight) simply boards the first departure listed and follows the directions.  

 

I understand "AP Salisbury" to mean that the route taken must include travel via Salisbury but is otherwise Any Permitted.  Just as "AP Slough" requires the user to travel through that location between (usually) London and points west and not make use of the routes via Bracknell or Andover.  

What it actually means looking through the routeing guide maps is that  the route via Salisbury is also a permitted route.  However the route via Salisbury which is shown in the routeing guide is in fact via Salisbury and Exeter  (although that is quoted against a ticket 'via London').  The routeing guide does NOT show/allow a route via Salisbury and Westbury.  Hence the code AP Salisbury allows the ticket from Gatwick Airport to be used to get to Tiverton Parkway via the LSW route to  Exeter and then double back towards Taunton. (which is the station you have to use as Tiverton Parkway is not shown on the Gatwick originating list).