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14 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Rather further south than that. Almost to Risca, a few miles away from you in Newport.

 
Infiltrated down the Central Wales line to Swansea....and branches off it.Worked from Abergavenny to Dowlais etc. 

Spent time at Abercynon shed but doubtful if they ever turned a wheel  in use there.

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44 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
Infiltrated down the Central Wales line to Swansea....and branches off it.Worked from Abergavenny to Dowlais etc. 

Spent time at Abercynon shed but doubtful if they ever turned a wheel  in use there.

Paxton St had an allocation of the 0-8-0s, which were transferred to Llanelly (87F) upon closure.

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5 hours ago, Legend said:

For years Caledonian modellers have been starved of locos because of the presence of the 0-4-0 pug and 123 4-2-2 . Which I’m sure Simon Kohler believes is the Caledonian modelled . While the pug would be a desirable wee model I’d much rather have a Dunalastair 4-4-0 or a later version that made it into BR Black ( that seems to be a factor) . Imagine a nice 4-4-0 in Caley Blue, LMS red, LMS black and early BR black . Will go well with the Rails /Bachmann 812 class 0-6-0  when it finally appears . 

 

Yes that is a good point, I never thought of it like that. Strange though that no other manufacturers 'picked up' Caley models until recently as they have such a huge following. I totally agree with you, I too would much rather have something more 'substantial' but I think as an updated model for Hornby's anniversary there could have been little better. I already have the 'as preserved' 812 on pre-order and will probably get the 'as built' one if it's a different livery. I have a suspicion it will look like this:

 

32-875K_1574366_Qty1_1.jpg.d837e3dfb9fb1f5de7998743479f3be4.jpg

 

Can anyone confirm this? 

 

Thanks! 

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4 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

Don't worry, nothing west of Severn Tunnel either

 

.

I would like to recommend "Working with LMS steam" by HCH Burgess published by Bradford Barton ISBN 0 85153 450 3.  My copy is dated 1983. 

 

Just might open your mind a little

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1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

Nah. These are better looking.

 

spacer.png

 

Wow I don't remember seeing those before! I suspect that is what you call a 'Marmite livery', I can't decide whether I like it or not, 68095 rather resembles a steam roller to me in those colours. Certainly very interesting, I suspect many would buy a model of something like that as a curiosity piece if nothing else...

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4 hours ago, Legend said:

For years Caledonian modellers have been starved of locos because of the presence of the 0-4-0 pug and 123 4-2-2 ...

I don't really feel that's the cause. With  some distinct exceptions pre-group loco subjects have been generally neglected in RTR OO production. Pre-group designs that have long had models were usually either celebrities in some way, or classes that continued to be expanded by the succeeding big four company.

 

I would suggest it has only been the near exhaustion of the big four and BR classes that has led manufacturers to begin looking systematically for model subjects among the longer surviving pre-group origin classes; encouraged to an extent by the better techniques developed for HO that make smaller and awkward designs more practical.

 

A very welcome development, and one that is slowly building. Very happily, including some originating from points North. I have a good current standard model of an 0-6-0 designed at Cowlairs, now we are beginning to cook with gas...

 

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37 minutes ago, Otis JB said:

 

Wow I don't remember seeing those before! I suspect that is what you call a 'Marmite livery', I can't decide whether I like it or not, 68095 rather resembles a steam roller to me in those colours. Certainly very interesting, I suspect many would buy a model of something like that as a curiosity piece if nothing else...

 

68095 is a NBR G Class/LNER Y9 and the one on the right is an "Industrial" version which I think is the oldest surviving member.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/neilson-co-works-no-2203-ncb-no-13-kelton-fell-0-4-0st/

 

These and the Caledonian ones are the same basic design which was originally built by Neilson & Company.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBR_G_Class

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonian_Railway_264_Class

 

My main reason for pointing that out is if you are going to do one to modern standards you might as well make the other as well. The main difference is the cabs.

 

 

 

Jason

 

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1 hour ago, Covkid said:

 

.

I would like to recommend "Working with LMS steam" by HCH Burgess published by Bradford Barton ISBN 0 85153 450 3.  My copy is dated 1983. 

 

Just might open your mind a little

 

Thank you, I'll try to find a copy. 

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The Caley was a major company and a national level player in pregrouping days, and has, I agree. not had sufficient serious attention from the trade, though the production of the single and accompanying coaches by Triang was pretty left field in it's day!  I do not regard Smokey Joe as a serious model and would like to see it produced with a bit more detail and proper motion, not to mention correct size driving wheels (if only so that I can use the mech for something else), but don't think there's much chance of that ever happening sadly.  But an 0-6-0 and one of the 4-4-0s are good choices; we'll probably get 'Cardean', though!

 

As for west of the Severn Tunnel, firstly, there are many items of RTR from this area relating to the GW, which was by any definition a pregrouping railway in the area.  The LNW came down to 9 Mile Point and it's locos and stock worked through to Risca and Newport, and also to Merthyr High St via the Heads of the Valleys line from Abergavenny.  Swansea Victoria has been alluded to, and the company kept a loco and a crew for it, the Earl of Dumfries (one of the titles held by Lord Bute) at the Rhymney's (period spelling) Cardiff East Dock shed, to shunt a warehouse they owned on Tyndall Street; the shell of the building is extant converted to yuppie flats.  I think the loco was a Ramsbottom 0-6-0ST with a weatherboard and no enclosed cab.  The LNWR pretty much owned the Rhymney, having baled it out when it went close to bankruptcy after problems building Caerphilly Tunnel in the late 1860s.  

 

It is possible without finescale or scratchbuilding skillsets  to build a 00 layout set in the pre-grouping era in South Wales using GW, LNW, and Midland RTR locos and stock, and one could add the 45xx' that were sold new to the Rhondda and Swansea Bar which ran in their livery until 'repossessed' at the grouping. and the 31xx' lent to the Barry to work the Cogan branch, which I believe ran in that company's livery for a time.  At Swansea the Midland intruded, with a terminus and shed at St Thomas, locos being 1Fs and 1P tanks, available RTR.  In BR days there were L & Y pugs working on Swansea Docks.  2721 pannier, Dean Goods, Dean Single, City/Atbara, Saint, Star, Churchward County, 28xx, 42xx, 45xx, 4575, 31xx (some work needed to 'backdate' from 5101/61xx condition), gangwayed and non-gangwayed GW clerestory coaching stock, pre-grouping Toads, LNW G2a and Webb Coal Tank, Midland 1F and 1P are available, and an excursion into relatively easy kit building provides GW 4-wheel, LNW, and Midland coaches, and 3D body prints for saddle tank versions of the 2721, and for 517 class 0-4-2Ts using a 14xx chassis.  A variety of suitable goods and PO mineral stock of variable credibility is available, much of the PO being in South Wales liveries, and can be extended by using easy kits.  And there's the Kernow steam railmotor!

 

Oh, and since we've mentioned Smokey Joe, there is the Dowlais Ironworks inside cylinder 0-4-0T as well, and if we've opened the can of industrial worms, a good level of Peckett W4 and B2s, Andrew Barclay, and Hunslet 18½" working in the area, some of which still are as Ian is in a particularly good position to know!  

 

The point I suspect Ian was making is a highly valid one, though, that there is no RTR support whatever for the 'independent' South Wales pregrouping railways even in the form of post grouping liveries; the Taff Vale, Rhymney, Brecon and Merthyr, Neath and Brecon, Cardiff, Pontypridd Caerphilly & Newport, etc, which between them owned a very large amount of stock some of which lasted will into BR days and offers manufacturers the chance of GW rebuild bodies on chassis' produced for them.  It's not just South Wales, the Cambrian is excluded as well, and not just Wales; what about the North Stafford, Highland, G & SW, GNoS, Hull and Barnsley (ok, there are the Triang vans, allegedly), North London, LT & S...

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The Caley was a major company and a national level player in pregrouping days, ... But an 0-6-0 and one of the 4-4-0s are good choices; we'll probably get 'Cardean', though!

An Caley 0-6-0 from Hornby I would hope would be not be forthcoming given the Rails Bachmann one due next year or so.

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4 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Thank you, I'll try to find a copy. 

 

Seriously recommend this to anyone interested in railways in South Wales.  Burgess started on the railway at Swansea Paxton St in March 1932 and rose to engineering inspectorate level by the time he retired in 1979. Some fascinating tales from locomotives on the "Sugar loaf".

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18 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

68095 is a NBR G Class/LNER Y9 and the one on the right is an "Industrial" version which I think is the oldest surviving member.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/neilson-co-works-no-2203-ncb-no-13-kelton-fell-0-4-0st/

 

These and the Caledonian ones are the same basic design which was originally built by Neilson & Company.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBR_G_Class

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonian_Railway_264_Class

 

My main reason for pointing that out is if you are going to do one to modern standards you might as well make the other as well. The main difference is the cabs.

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

Thanks for the info, Jason. :)

 

If someone were to do a pug I'm sure an NBR version would be made eventually as the model would need to have the capacity for interchangeable cabs for the Caley-built versions as it is. It would also make sense to tool up for one as Hornby already have an NBR loco in the form of Maude and Oxford make NBR wagons so it would 'have company' so to speak. Additionally, I'm sure its livery would incise many as we've seen with the likes of the GCR D11 and the SECR C. 

 

Regards,

 

Otis

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14 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

 

An Caley 0-6-0 from Hornby I would hope would be not be forthcoming given the Rails Bachmann one due next year or so.


i was always disappointed it wasn’t Hornby that we’re making it . If they announced it now they might still beat the Rails/Bachmann one . The 812 class is prime candidate because it wore Caley blue , not sure any other 0-6-0s did. Of course it’s also preserved which helps.  But a Cardean.........mmm that would be nice . I do remember you could make a Gem kit using the Triang B12 chassis . Way beyond me , but I’m sure someone made these Gem kits . 

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17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The Caley was a major company and a national level player in pregrouping days, and has, I agree. not had sufficient serious attention from the trade, though the production of the single and accompanying coaches by Triang was pretty left field in it's day!  I do not regard Smokey Joe as a serious model and would like to see it produced with a bit more detail and proper motion, not to mention correct size driving wheels (if only so that I can use the mech for something else), but don't think there's much chance of that ever happening sadly.  But an 0-6-0 and one of the 4-4-0s are good choices; we'll probably get 'Cardean', though!

 

As for west of the Severn Tunnel, firstly, there are many items of RTR from this area relating to the GW, which was by any definition a pregrouping railway in the area.  The LNW came down to 9 Mile Point and it's locos and stock worked through to Risca and Newport, and also to Merthyr High St via the Heads of the Valleys line from Abergavenny.  Swansea Victoria has been alluded to, and the company kept a loco and a crew for it, the Earl of Dumfries (one of the titles held by Lord Bute) at the Rhymney's (period spelling) Cardiff East Dock shed, to shunt a warehouse they owned on Tyndall Street; the shell of the building is extant converted to yuppie flats.  I think the loco was a Ramsbottom 0-6-0ST with a weatherboard and no enclosed cab.  The LNWR pretty much owned the Rhymney, having baled it out when it went close to bankruptcy after problems building Caerphilly Tunnel in the late 1860s.  

 

It is possible without finescale or scratchbuilding skillsets  to build a 00 layout set in the pre-grouping era in South Wales using GW, LNW, and Midland RTR locos and stock, and one could add the 45xx' that were sold new to the Rhondda and Swansea Bar which ran in their livery until 'repossessed' at the grouping. and the 31xx' lent to the Barry to work the Cogan branch, which I believe ran in that company's livery for a time.  At Swansea the Midland intruded, with a terminus and shed at St Thomas, locos being 1Fs and 1P tanks, available RTR.  In BR days there were L & Y pugs working on Swansea Docks.  2721 pannier, Dean Goods, Dean Single, City/Atbara, Saint, Star, Churchward County, 28xx, 42xx, 45xx, 4575, 31xx (some work needed to 'backdate' from 5101/61xx condition), gangwayed and non-gangwayed GW clerestory coaching stock, pre-grouping Toads, LNW G2a and Webb Coal Tank, Midland 1F and 1P are available, and an excursion into relatively easy kit building provides GW 4-wheel, LNW, and Midland coaches, and 3D body prints for saddle tank versions of the 2721, and for 517 class 0-4-2Ts using a 14xx chassis.  A variety of suitable goods and PO mineral stock of variable credibility is available, much of the PO being in South Wales liveries, and can be extended by using easy kits.  And there's the Kernow steam railmotor!

 

Oh, and since we've mentioned Smokey Joe, there is the Dowlais Ironworks inside cylinder 0-4-0T as well, and if we've opened the can of industrial worms, a good level of Peckett W4 and B2s, Andrew Barclay, and Hunslet 18½" working in the area, some of which still are as Ian is in a particularly good position to know!  

 

The point I suspect Ian was making is a highly valid one, though, that there is no RTR support whatever for the 'independent' South Wales pregrouping railways even in the form of post grouping liveries; the Taff Vale, Rhymney, Brecon and Merthyr, Neath and Brecon, Cardiff, Pontypridd Caerphilly & Newport, etc, which between them owned a very large amount of stock some of which lasted will into BR days and offers manufacturers the chance of GW rebuild bodies on chassis' produced for them.  It's not just South Wales, the Cambrian is excluded as well, and not just Wales; what about the North Stafford, Highland, G & SW, GNoS, Hull and Barnsley (ok, there are the Triang vans, allegedly), North London, LT & S...

 

I'm sure the Caley will get more models in the years to come, mainly because of its elegant blues and lovely designs... A Cardean would be splendid I agree but I'm not sure who would take it up. Maybe one of the smaller, newer companies like KR? Anyway, while there are many models I'd like more, there aren't many that say "Hornby" more than a pug in my opinion.

 

Regards,

 

Otis

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5 minutes ago, Legend said:


i was always disappointed it wasn’t Hornby that we’re making it . If they announced it now they might still beat the Rails/Bachmann one . The 812 class is prime candidate because it wore Caley blue , not sure any other 0-6-0s did. Of course it’s also preserved which helps.  But a Cardean.........mmm that would be nice . I do remember you could make a Gem kit using the Triang B12 chassis . Way beyond me , but I’m sure someone made these Gem kits . 

 

The want is strong for a Cardean... Any manufacturers listening? 

 

P.S. Hornby if you're here Lion would go very nicely with Rocket... :yes: You could do a Titfield Thunderbolt tie-in set too... :yes:

 

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Academic for me, don't model the Caley, but if I did I'd want a Dunalastair over Cardean any day.  The 4-4-0s were used all over the system whereas Cardean, impressive though she is, is a bit of a one-trick pony, no use unless you want to model a WCML express (all right, I know she hauled the local in the Quintinshill disaster but that was unusual, a running in turn after overhaul).  A comparison would be trying to represent the ECML in the 60s with just DP2 and no Deltics, 47s, 37s, etc.

 

The Dunalastairs lasted a good long time as well, and can be produced in Caley, early LMS crimson lake, LMS black, and BR lined black liveries; this makes a lot of sense to manufacturers as collectors will buy one of each, quadrupling sales at a stroke in that sector!

 

I'm with you all the way about expanding the L & M range beyond Rocket, though; Lion, Planet, Patentee, second class coaches, some basic early wagons, and a few basic track pieces could kickstart a  whole range of early railway models, which as well as being bright and colourful would be very attractive to those starved for space, which is pretty much all of us!  Plenty of tiny N scale mechs to adapt for them!  I've lobbied on this site before for someone to have a go a range of generic stock for a slightly later period; Jenny Linds, Sharpie 2-4-0s, Cramptons, Stephenson long boilers and so on.  There were a very large number of railways that bought in these early successes and some of them lasted long enough to be useful for later periods, with weatherboards or cabs fitted.  I'd envisage them being marketed as train set in all sorts of liveries, with stock and track to expand, but close enough to scale dimensions for extra details and working up to be done.

 

I made up a GEM double Fairlie many years ago, and can report that GEM kits weren't that difficult; if I could make a tolerable fist of one any ham fisted idiot could.  The problem is that obtaining the kits is difficult these days.  Within the capability of anyone who has ever built an Airfix Spitfire on which you could turn the propeller and with the undercarriage down, but if you can't solder you have to get used to using epoxy resin and a little more care is needed in preparing parts to fit, so it takes longer, but the principle is the same as a plastic construction kit, and same goes for Wills', now South Eastern.  The standard of detail and shaping of parts is, however, very inferior to current RTR; whitemetal is easy and cheap to mould but is otherwise an appalling material for a model loco.  K's used it for wagons and coaches as well!

 

In all honesty, I doubt you'd be satisfied with the lumpen crudity of a GEM Cardean on a Hornby B12 chassis, much less with the Triang B12 it was designed for.

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2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Academic for me, don't model the Caley, but if I did I'd want a Dunalastair over Cardean any day.  The 4-4-0s were used all over the system whereas Cardean, impressive though she is, is a bit of a one-trick pony, no use unless you want to model a WCML express (all right, I know she hauled the local in the Quintinshill disaster but that was unusual, a running in turn after overhaul).  A comparison would be trying to represent the ECML in the 60s with just DP2 and no Deltics, 47s, 37s, etc.

 

What about all the Scots, Crabs, 2Ps, 4Ps, 4Fs, Fowler tanks, etc that people may have? Not to mention people who have models that aren't RTR. All those Caledonian Railway DJH and Nucast kits must be somewhere. You also have Caley Coaches who make a few locomotives and quite a lot of coaches.

 

There's also the small matter of the Bachmann 812 0-6-0.

 

 

Don't forget the Cardeans lasted until 1933. That's thirty years of top link working and they only went due to the purge of non standard classes due to the arrival of the Royal Scots.

 

It's a bit like saying you shouldn't make a Star as you can't run the GWR with just Stars.

 

Do I think there will be one announced? No. But it has as much a chance as any other small class of locomotive and it's one that gets in all the major railway history books along with locomotives such as 1000, City Of Truro, Flying Scotsman and Mallard.

 

Iconic? Yes.

 

spacer.png

 

 

Also don't forget they got LMS Crimson Lake....

 

 

 

Jason

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Funnily enough the old Triang Hornby Caledonian coaches weren't that far off the real ones. Very much of their time, but fun to have if you aren't a serious modeller.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=981

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=982

 

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10027.htm

 

 

 

Jason

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IIRC the main issue with the TH Caley coaches was the generic B1 bogies, which they also used on Colletts and Thompsons.  The Southern Utility Van had started life with open axle boxes that matched the 9" mk1 coaches, but by this time had been updated with the then current B1s, not bad as B1s but completely wrong for these coaches.  There were also Southern liveried 'Maunsell' coaches, actually green painted Colletts; the Caleys were at least an attempt to represent real Caley coaches.  They were available in a period 1 LMS livery as well.  They certainly wouldn't cut the mustard nowadays, but they weren't the worst coaches TH were producing in those days!

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6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Funnily enough the old Triang Hornby Caledonian coaches weren't that far off the real ones. Very much of their time, but fun to have if you aren't a serious modeller.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=981

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=982

 

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10027.htm

 

 

 

Jason


Yes , the  red and white livery wasn’t accurate though. Later versions released by Hornby Railways , I think maybe 10 years ago were better 

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6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

IIRC the main issue with the TH Caley coaches was the generic B1 bogies, which they also used on Colletts and Thompsons.  The Southern Utility Van had started life with open axle boxes that matched the 9" mk1 coaches, but by this time had been updated with the then current B1s, not bad as B1s but completely wrong for these coaches.  There were also Southern liveried 'Maunsell' coaches, actually green painted Colletts; the Caleys were at least an attempt to represent real Caley coaches.  They were available in a period 1 LMS livery as well.  They certainly wouldn't cut the mustard nowadays, but they weren't the worst coaches TH were producing in those days!

The Caleys were actually just the scale length Mk1 fitted with panelled sides and different roofs (also interiors if they had them, I don't remember). The LMS, GWR and SR versions were identical but for the livery. Everything else was pure BR and they were significantly longer than anything the Southern built pre-Bulleid.

 

The Thompsons were made on the same principle. I've never handled one but always thought it a bit odd they weren't also offered in BR liveries. Was the surface textured to produce the ersatz teak look?

 

The later alleged Maunsells, dating from the "Year of the Coach" weren't just re-liveried GWR ones, though. The roof detail was altered, which I found surprising as they have one-piece body shells. I always thought they were more credible as LSWR Ironclads than Maunsells (and treated my old 3-set as such, especially after I discovered Kirk kits) if only because the brakes have five compartments.  

 

If you are listening, Hornby (or anyone else TBH), a range of "proper" Ironclads (especially the early BR pull-push conversions) would put ticks into most of the remaining boxes on my r-t-r coaching stock "bucket list".

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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