Hornby 2020 range announcements

['CHARD]

Great to see 64G (Hawick) Standard stalwart 78047 nearing sign-off.  What a beauty. 

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 22/10/2020 at 15:49, WILLIAM said:

Hattons have promptly come back to me and confirmed the models mentioned in their emails are still being produced however their expected allocation has been lowered so they have to cancel some pre-orders. They apologised for the situation and confusion caused.

Thanks for coming back with you're findings.

I wonder how they chose whose pre-order got the chop and how many they had to cancel.

[Geep7]

On 25/10/2020 at 08:17, AMJ said:

I wonder if we will get to the scenario that some of the manufacturers do in USA that they announce items at the beginning of the month and the order book closes at the end.  Delivery then follows a few months later.  To a certain extent I think that they produce only the quantities required.

I recall quite a few years ago now that when I pre-ordered a Proto 1000 loco from the Walthers site, that there was no guarantee that I would get the Railroad/Livery I had pre-ordered if the number of pre-orders didn't reach a certain threshold for that Railroad/Livery combination. With the much lower batch sizes (i'm presuming) that are being done now, perhaps this is the way that British outline needs to go.

 

For example, announce a new run of a Class 50 and offer it in several livery / bodystyle options. Those that don't reach the threshold, don't get made.

 

One thing that I have noticed that is popular in US Outline is an undecorated option, which never seems to be considered for British outline. Maybe this could be an option?

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Geep7 said:

One thing that I have noticed that is popular in US Outline is an undecorated option, which never seems to be considered for British outline. Maybe this could be an option?

That has become increasingly relevant since privatisation, with multiple TOCs operating the same equipment, and franchises changing liveries more frequently. It is an idea whose time might be approaching. But a key difference from the US model scene is the greater emphasis on fictional roadnames over there, which remains a fairly minor interest here. Creating your own livery on an undec model is part of the fun for some US modellers. 

 

Prior to the 1990s, there were fewer BR changes of livery, and in the Big 4 era, each company typically had no more than 2 or 3 in 25 years. Contrast that to the US. How many shortlines had or have elderly Geep7s, as a cheeky example, handed down through multiple mergers, each time with a new livery, and then cascaded out of the Class 1 railroads altogether? And no manufacturer could ever expect to cover all those bases, so undec gives everyone a chance. 

[The Johnster]

Well, Dapol do undecorated wagons, so there is 'form' for this in the UK scene...

[newbryford]

19 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Well, Dapol do undecorated wagons, so there is 'form' for this in the UK scene...

 

But that's about it.

 

Hornby did un-numbered Class 25s many years ago - supplied with decal sheets.

They weren't popular.

Likewise, Heljan tried un-numbered Class 47s. These could be picked up on the discount shelves not too much later.

 

As Ian OD has mentioned, the market for undecorated locos in the US is much larger.

And let's face it - the whole market over there is simply larger so minimum production volumes for a particular variant can be more easily be met.

 

Recently, it seems as if the UK market is slowly shrinking away from after-market alterations.

There are a number of reasons but the primary ones are related IMHO.

1. Recent price hikes (relative to general UK inflation) have made models more expensive and thus people are less likely to hack them about. (see #3 below)

2. We have been spoilt/spoonfed [*] with the variety of numbers/liveries, so why put the effort into doing this when there's a possibility of it being released in RTR form? (This also applies to the general lack of kitbuilding that seems to be apparent.

3. Fear of failure. See #1.

 

[*] and that doesn't just apply to model railways

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

Back in the 80s I had a Hornby ‘Silver Seal’ Black 5 which had stick-on cab lining panels with different numbers, and nameplates with stickyback names for the two BR named examples as well.  This was probably around the same time as the 25s mentioned.  
 

Personally, I would appreciate a choice of numbers, and in the case of of GW locos I think we are paying enough now for a selection of etched number plates to be included in the box, but apparently the market doesn’t like this.  I don’t understand the market, so avoid second guessing it, but it is culturally different to the US and probably the European.  People seem to regard any work they have to do themselves as bad; ‘I paid for a complete model, why should I have to put the brake rodding on myself at this price’ and so on. 

[TomScrut]

5 hours ago, newbryford said:

There are a number of reasons but the primary ones are related IMHO.

 

I think another reason is residual value. Well kept stuff seems to hold value well in a lot of cases, at least until there is a switch in the marketplace such as a better version comes out or another one the same gets done.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Back in the 80s I had a Hornby ‘Silver Seal’ Black 5 which had stick-on cab lining panels with different numbers, and nameplates with stickyback names for the two BR named examples as well.  This was probably around the same time as the 25s mentioned.  
 

Personally, I would appreciate a choice of numbers, and in the case of of GW locos I think we are paying enough now for a selection of etched number plates to be included in the box, but apparently the market doesn’t like this.  I don’t understand the market, so avoid second guessing it, but it is culturally different to the US and probably the European.  People seem to regard any work they have to do themselves as bad; ‘I paid for a complete model, why should I have to put the brake rodding on myself at this price’ and so on. 

The Alternative names and numbers were offered on quite a few steam locos, mainly in the 1970s, including the LMS Princess, LMS Streamlines Princess Coronation (both Blue and Maroon liveries), BR Britannia, SR Battle of Britain, GWR Hall.

 

The Black 5 as already mentioned, which included plastic nameplates, and included both the BR and later LMS livery issues.

 

The SR E2 0-6-0 tank loco had alternative numbers.

 

The LNER and BR “Footballer” locos had alternative names and numbers.

 

The BR ex LMS large tank loco (2-6-4 ?) had alternative numbers.

 

The Class 25 was joined by a Class 37, and a Class 47 I think, and possibly a version of the Class 87?

 

The Class 110 DMU had alternative numbers, and BR logos on some issues.

 

The original Mk3 coaches had numbering transfers.

 

Some of the GWR livery “Caledonian “ coaches included transfers for the class numbers on the doors.

 

There may well be others that I can’t think of just now!

 

So, quite a few....

[tomparryharry]

There are some Felix Pole  (GWR)  20-ton mineral wagons, made by either Hornby or Dapol.  The Dapol version has wisely left the running number undecorated. The upside of this is renumbering is a doddle.  'Fancy that! Manufacturers allowing ordinary people to renumber their stock!

 

" Nay lad, it'll never catch on......." 

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I think another reason is residual value. Well kept stuff seems to hold value well in a lot of cases, at least until there is a switch in the marketplace such as a better version comes out or another one the same gets done.

That's really a collector's viewpoint, or that of a modeller with no real fixed prototype interest who keeps chopping and changing. With relatively few exceptions you'll be lucky to get back 80% of what you spent on most models unless you got it at a very hefty discount in the first place. Having "fluid" interests is therefore likely to be rather cash-hungry over time. 

 

Life's so much simpler if one has established and defined prototype interests that also extend to ones modelling. I do, and try not to buy things I don't anticipate keeping. I therefore have no compunction in customising my acquisitions to more closely fit those interests; I spend money on models for my own enjoyment and, just as with pints of fine ale purchased with similar intentions, their potential future value to anyone else is best not dwelt upon. 

 

This self-discipline has increased as prices have been doing the same, but there's always the occasional wide-of-scheme "lollipop" that's just too tempting. I generally leave those unmolested, in the display cabinet, and carefully store the boxes, knowing that a need to free-up some space will eventually outweigh my infatuation. I've made a few quid on a couple of those, but lose a whole lot more on most.... 

 

John

Edited November 6, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

13 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

With relatively few exceptions you'll be lucky to get back 80% of what you spent on most models

 

Because of the inflation we are currently facing on models, along with lack of re-runs, a lot of modern stuff is fetching similar or more to what it was new. OTOH buying a Flying Scotsman or Mallard which appear pretty much every year isn't going to work the same way.

 

14 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

with no real fixed prototype interest who keeps chopping and changing

21 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

knowing that a need to free-up some space will eventually outweigh my infatuation

 

In my case it is that whilst I have a prototype interest I will sometimes sell stuff I don't end up running as often as intended, or sell things to fund other purchases. I expect there are a LOT of people that do this. I have way more stuff at the moment than I can fit on my layout with more stuff on pre order. I might keep all of it but I expect some of the stuff I have now will make way for new purchases.

 

For example if Accurascale announce shorty HYA/IIAs then I might get rid of my Tarmac JGAs, which fetch around £30 each at the moment and some are 15+ years old.

 

17 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I spend money on models for my own enjoyment and, just as with pints of fine ale purchased with similar intentions, their potential future value to anyone else is best not dwelt upon.

 

I do regard it as spending money rather than investing for sure, but I won't deliberately do stuff to them to devalue as a rule of thumb just because I don't feel it is necessary. Some stuff I do buy with modifying in mind, such as my 33063 which I modified to suit how it is nowadays.

 

 

[Robin Brasher]

On 29/10/2020 at 14:17, brushman47544 said:

Well done Hornby, at last. The latest releases of BR Green Mk1s do NOT have the BR carriage roundel on the body sides, which only appeared on a few coaches used in the Royal Wessex stock so incorrect on most recent releases. And the yellow first class line is correct on the corridor side of the CK, not too short as in Hornby’s own images.

Except for the BG the Hornby BR Green Mk1s did have roundels in the catalogue illustrations but these have been omitted in retailers' illustrations of production models.  These will be useful for people not running models of the Royal Wessex or some of the preserved coaches on the Swanage Railway. 

 

[Phil Bullock]

21 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Except for the BG the Hornby BR Green Mk1s did have roundels in the catalogue illustrations but these have been omitted in retailers' illustrations of production models.  These will be useful for people not running models of the Royal Wessex or some of the preserved coaches on the Swanage Railway. 

 

Easier to add if wanted rather than remove if not wanted....

[The Johnster]

Well, it’s been tried and it didn’t catch on, though I thought it was a perfectly cromulent idea.  I can see the point of offering different names for ‘footballer’ B17s, though, for flogging them to fans.  Wonder if they were ever offered at stupid markups by the clubs...

[Steamport Southport]

Just now, The Johnster said:

Well, it’s been tried and it didn’t catch on, though I thought it was a perfectly cromulent idea.  I can see the point of offering different names for ‘footballer’ B17s, though, for flogging them to fans.  Wonder if they were ever offered at stupid markups by the clubs...

 

Nope. I doubt it's a thing that the average football fan would be interested in. A bit like those wanting to build the replica Man United expecting loads of people to put money in because of the name. It didn't happen.

 

There were some catalogue specials. At the time Littlewoods had a deal with Hornby for limited editions there were a few B17s.

 

As for the original Hornby version. If you look at the second hand market. Loads of mint Man Uniteds, a few Liverpool. Never seen a Nottingham Forest or Arsenal come up though which were the two other names. 

 

I don't think mine lasted five minutes before the name was changed. 

 

But to be honest I'm not that bitter about having a rival football club name as a model. I have Leeds United and I have as much dislike for them as any other club.

 

As an aside two of the original nameplates for Liverpool and Everton used to be in the Head Of Steam next to Liverpool Lime Street. No idea where they went since it was changed into a 'Spoons.

 

I know the clubs all got one.

[Steamport Southport]

To answer that question. Here's the Everton one. Seems it went to auction.

 

https://www.gcrauctions.com/sale267/lot282.html

[truffy]

On 06/11/2020 at 02:33, newbryford said:

variety of numbers/liveries, so why put the effort into doing this when there's a possibility of it being released in RTR form?

Or perhaps people are happy to apply the 80:20 rule. In many cases close enough is good enough. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by truffy

[The Johnster]

A 'possibility' of the livery you want being released in RTR at an unspecifiable future date would not be enough for me to refrain from re-painting and/or renumbering a brand new model to achieve a represetation of the loco (or coach/wagon) I specifically want, nor would it dissuade me from adding/removing detail; too many 'ifs'.  Should an RTR version become available later, one can always strip the paint and restore the original model.  This is about to happen on my layout when a Bachmann 57xx chassis currently sheltering from the rain beneath a Lima 94xx body will, when, when the new Bachmann 94xx (which is to have it's identity changed and the red backed number plate replaced with a black backed one, not to mention the works plate changed) will be put back under it's donor body, which will also get back buffers it donated to the Limbach 94xx, repainted from it's 1920;s livery, and put into service, number as yet undecided and possibly converted to 8750 spec without top feed.

[robmcg]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

....

This is about to happen on my layout when a Bachmann 57xx chassis currently sheltering from the rain beneath a Lima 94xx body will, when, when the new Bachmann 94xx (which is to have it's identity changed and the red backed number plate replaced with a black backed one, not to mention the works plate changed) will be put back under it's donor body, which will also get back buffers it donated to the Limbach 94xx, repainted from it's 1920;s livery, and put into service, number as yet undecided and possibly converted to 8750 spec without top feed.

 

But I thought all GWR Panniers were the same. More or less....

[The Johnster]

They are.  Except when they are different...

 

57xx, sub class 67xx, (no vacuum), 8750 (modern high roof cab), 97xx (8750 with condensing gear and tripcocks for working on LT widened lines), 6750 (high roof cab version of 67xx).  Add the apparently random choice of top feed or no top feed boiler; I make that 10 variations, all visible to even a fairly casual observer.  Then include livery variations, red or black backed early BR numberplates, painted numberplates applied in the 50s at Caerphilly, and tell me all panniers are the same.  
 

And if you think that’s complicated, what about the locos built at Wolverhampton as saddle tanks and given panniers when they got Belpaire boilers; that, no cabs, half cabs, half cabs with rear weatherboards, full cabs, different chimneys, wheel spokes, parallel or fishbelly coupling rods, inside frames, outside frames, if you don’t like this one something looking completely different will be along shortly...

[andyman7]

On 06/11/2020 at 08:48, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The Alternative names and numbers were offered on quite a few steam locos, mainly in the 1970s, including the LMS Princess, LMS Streamlines Princess Coronation (both Blue and Maroon liveries), BR Britannia, SR Battle of Britain, GWR Hall.

 

The Black 5 as already mentioned, which included plastic nameplates, and included both the BR and later LMS livery issues.

 

The SR E2 0-6-0 tank loco had alternative numbers.

 

The LNER and BR “Footballer” locos had alternative names and numbers.

 

The BR ex LMS large tank loco (2-6-4 ?) had alternative numbers.

 

The Class 25 was joined by a Class 37, and a Class 47 I think, and possibly a version of the Class 87?

 

The Class 110 DMU had alternative numbers, and BR logos on some issues.

 

The original Mk3 coaches had numbering transfers.

 

Some of the GWR livery “Caledonian “ coaches included transfers for the class numbers on the doors.

 

There may well be others that I can’t think of just now!

 

So, quite a few....

There were two eras of alternative names/numbers for Triang-Hornby and Hornby Railways models. The first era was 1969 - 1974 and included the aforementioned Silver Seal Black 5, the GWR Hall, the LMS Princess, the Britannia and the SR Battle of Britain. 

In 1977 the HST 'shorty' MK3s came out without running numbers applied, but with 3 alternatives for HSTs and 3 for loco hauled. This arrangement was used for all versions of the blue-grey SO anf FO until deletion in 1984 but never for the buffet or any other livery.
The second main era was 1980-87 when various steam and some diesel classes included alternative names/numbers. Steam issues included the already mentioned B17 Footballers, the retooled Britannia 'Morning Star', the black 9F, the BR Stanier 2-6-4T, the SR Olive E2 and the BR Duchess. The first issue of the Class 110 in refurbished white (R369) had alternative numbers and BR logos to cover the WYPTE logos but no subsequent issues had this. Later, examples of the green and blue Class 37, the Class 25, and the Class 47 and 86 in early InterCity livery came with alternative numbers/names but the models themselves were un-numbered - it was this that was particularly unpopular as it meant that the models were essentially unfinished out of the box.

From 1988 onwards Hornby moved on from alternative user-applied identities to producing number variations within a single release of models - for example the BR Black 9F when re-released in the late 1980s came with 3 alternative identities; the InterCity Swallow Mk4 coaches were all initially issued with three possible numbers. This was a precursor to the move to much smaller runs of models with much more frequent changes of identity which is common practice these days.

[sandwich station]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

There were two eras of alternative names/numbers for Triang-Hornby and Hornby Railways models. The first era was 1969 - 1974 and included the aforementioned Silver Seal Black 5, the GWR Hall, the LMS Princess, the Britannia and the SR Battle of Britain. 

 

Also the 2 streamlines Coronations had 3 alternative names/numbers each.

[andyman7]

Yes - I forgot about those...!

[Ruffnut Thorston]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

Yes - I forgot about those...!

But they were mentioned in my post above....

 

Quote

LMS Streamlines Princess Coronation (both Blue and Maroon liveries),