Hornby 2020 range announcements

[eldomtom2]

34 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

They've observed that some modellers would use Railroad items as the raw material and upgrade them

.

They claimed that as a stated target market from the start, either they've forgotten or are lying!

[atom3624]

I like his personal favourite - and totally agree!!

 

Al.

[bart2day]

3 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

...and avoided talking about the Class 91 & Terrier even though it was in the title of that segment unless it was edited out, but later the Class 91 question pops up & again didn't say anything at all.

 

Agreed. I also didn’t like his answer on the question of whether mk4 coaches will be made to accompany the new 91 being very vague. I want to support Hornby over Cavalex for the 91 project but the lack of a declaration of coach production makes it very difficult.

Edited January 15, 2020 by bart2day

[bart2day]

9 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

My thoughts exactly. 

 

Especially when so many retailers have still got the first set of Inter7Cities power cars available and at significantly reduced prices. I mean is the Inter7Cities livery really that popular to produce two sets of power cars to arrive within the same year of each other? Personally, I wouldn't think so. Even the GWR Green power cars haven't sold out after many months of been available and many retailers still have all three releases so far of 43187 & 43188, 43005 & 43041 and 43016 & 43093 available. Given that GWR Green seems a popular livery and area to model for many modellers and all three sets produced so far are still available it would suggest that because the Inter7Cities power cars will be specifically confined to working in Scotland that these will be less popular to model. 

 

Producing the interim livery of debranded FGW with 'A New Era' branding I think would have been more sensible rather than producing a direct duplication of the same livery within a year of the previous set becoming available. It's not even as if either of said Inter7Cities power car sets have been named in reality and thus would be named on the models produced by Hornby. Then their would be more of a difference between the sets other than just the running numbers. 

 

I suppose for anyone modelling Scotland and the new short formed HST sets it's brilliant news, but I highly doubt that the second set will fly off of the shelves given the first set hasn't. 

 

Absolutely. I think the other three power car pack choices for this year (GWR, NMT and Intercity) are good choices but I honestly think a buffered EMT/EMR ex grand central set would have made a better fourth option over the Scotrail, especially given the buffered theme this’s year. EMT buffered HSTs haven’t been released before and the unbuffered version, so to speak, from eight years ago attracts big money on the second hand market. Meanwhile, as you rightly say,  Scotrail power cars from last years range gather dust on retailers shelves.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

6 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

But the "new era" branding was a very short-lived interim and probably never saw passenger service (and could only have done so on debranded GWR slam door stock prior to the power cars being overhauled)- hardly worth modelling such an obscure lash-up, especially when the six-years of service by 40% of the fleet FGW "Barbie" blue with pink swoosh has NEVER been done. 

 

Yes the 'A New Era' debranded FGW livery was short lived. It was worn from approximately mid 2018 until mid 2019, so for around one year in all. As you say whilst the choice of suitable MK3s to run with this livery may have been problematic at least it would have been different to the previous set which is identical (as far as I know) except for running numbers. I could understanding reissuing the same livery with different numbers if the first pair had been released a couple/few years ago but two sets within the same year does seem quite optimistic in relation to them selling well. I'm quite surprised that Hornby see a significant market for two power cars released in the same livery, in the same year which are confined to operating in Scotland only. I can't help but thinking that the second set announced as part of the 2020 range could have been substituted in the range for a different set of power cars in a different livery. 

 

5 minutes ago, bart2day said:

 

Absolutely. I think the other three power car pack choices for this year (GWR, NMT and Intercity) are good choices but I honestly think a buffered EMT/EMR ex grand central set would have made a better fourth option over the Scotrail, especially given the buffered theme this’s year. EMT buffered HSTs haven’t been released before and the unbuffered version, so to speak, from eight years ago attracts big money on the second hand market. Meanwhile, as you rightly say,  Scotrail power cars from last years range gather dust on retailers shelves.

 

Seems strange doesn't it. As I have mentioned in my comment above I could understand if Hornby was issuing a second power car set in the same livery after a couple/few years but considering the first set in Inter7Cities livery is still in stock with many retailers and still available at online stores such as Ebay and Amazon, it does seem like some at Hornby may be been slightly optimistic of how well the ScotRail Inter7Cities livery will sell. I agree, either EMT or the new EMR branded power cars may have been more appropriate although they haven't announced matching MK3s to run with them, so possibly 2021 for these...

 

Another interesting point is how many people will buy a second set in the same livery, so soon after buying the first set, with the general retailers price of £261? 

 

 

[MGR Hooper!]

4 hours ago, bart2day said:

 

Agreed. I also didn’t like his answer on the question of whether mk4 coaches will be made to accompany the new 91 being very vague.
 

If Hornby wanted to say something about forthcoming Mk4 coaches, they would've said it. We all know Hornby is a bit secretive in terms of forthcoming models. If they've not said anything about it before, why on earth will they say anything about it now. Do you really think any manufacturer is going to give you a direct YES as an answer?

 

This thread has literally been taken over by the "Hornby Cl 91 bashers" who seriously cannot stop at repeating themselves over an over and over again.

[Andy Mac]

8 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

...and avoided talking about the Class 91 & Terrier even though it was in the title of that segment unless it was edited out, but later the Class 91 question pops up & again didn't say anything at all.

Yes he did....

 

he said wait and see....

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, MGR Hooper! said:

If Hornby wanted to say something about forthcoming Mk4 coaches, they would've said it. We all know Hornby is a bit secretive in terms of forthcoming models. If they've not said anything about it before, why on earth will they say anything about it now. Do you really think any manufacturer is going to give you a direct YES as an answer?

 

This thread has literally been taken over by the "Hornby Cl 91 bashers" who seriously cannot stop at repeating themselves over an over and over again.

I'm a bystander in all this, in that I'll never be interested in a 91 or Mk4 coaches/DVT, whoever makes them. But only one of the offers is clear. 

 

Cavalex have announced they will produce the full train, to current standards, Hornby only the loco, and they are being cagey about anything more. The waters are further muddied by the fact that Hornby possess existing tooling for the coaches/DVT to what we would now regard as "Railroad" standard.

 

It would seem illogical for Hornby not to make the coaches/DVT at all; any model of a 91 is, for most purposes, pretty useless without them. However, whilst they might make new coaches/DVT to the same standard as the new loco, they could just do re-runs of old versions. The uncertainty of the "Hornby option" is, I suspect, deliberate, and calculated to make those considering pre-ordering the Cavalex set waver by raising the possibility of cheaper alternatives.

 

If one waits for Hornby to clarify their intentions, it may mean missing the deadline for ordering the (known) alternative so requires a leap of faith on the part of the would-be purchaser.

 

Summary: Any red box, when opened, may contain coaches/DVT to one standard or the other, or might prove to be completely empty (apologies to Schrodinger).    

 

John

Edited January 15, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Ron Ron Ron]

What is it, 12 years on or so since the retooled Class 43 appeared?

.....and still no sign of the retooled Mk3 coaches to go with them.

You could be waiting another 12 years for the Mk4’s.

[The Johnster]

And I’ve been moaning about blue box’s lead times!  Have H ever announced retooled Mk3s?  One is sometimes taking a leap of faith that announced models will eventually turn up, never mind hoping for and wishlisting unannounced ones...

[classy52]

4 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

This thread has literally been taken over by the "Hornby Cl 91 bashers" who seriously cannot stop at repeating themselves over an over and over again.

 

Well that would make you a Hornby apologist then on here & the Cavalex Class 91 thread...seriously don't call anyone a Hornby basher if we dare to critique Hornby's products or communications, that's just lazy.

[TomScrut]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

What is it, 12 years on or so since the retooled Class 43 appeared?

.....and still no sign of the retooled Mk3 coaches to go with them.

You could be waiting another 12 years for the Mk4’s.

 

Other than sliding door ones. But yes I get your point!

 

It is strange on the other hand how there seems to be a squabble about who should be allowed to make 91s yet nobody has had a go at the HST, a far more prolific machine

[farren]

Well if it’s true that Hornby as been working on the Class 91 for several years before it being announced.( I don’t know for sure but can’t see the point in lying.) Then Hornby as nothing to answer, the call as slowly been increasing for a new height spec model and Hornby as responded. As for coaches to go with who knows,  but the streamlined Coronations are now getting new coaches. To me that would point to the class91 will probably get its to. Hopefully! 
 

Cavalex well it’s just business, my lecturer at uni is keen on saying their are no friends in business. 
 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

15 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

......It is strange on the other hand how there seems to be a squabble about who should be allowed to make 91s yet nobody has had a go at the HST, a far more prolific machine

 

It's a different scenario though Tom.

 

There's already a Class 43 power car made to reasonable modern standards of detail (yes it can be much improved).

Who would be willing to duplicate it?

 

There wasn't such a decent RTR model of the Class 91 in existence, only the old, low fidelity (Railroad quality ?) model, that Hornby have not replaced or updated in years.

I would say, that was a worthwhile target for another manufacturer to tackle, in the absence of any previous effort from Hornby.

 

It's not a question of squabbling about  "who should be allowed to make 91s", but more an expression of disquiet and suspicion that Hornby's motives are more inclined towards the ruthless, cynical, kill the competition, end of the commercial spectrum.

(note: I'm not personally subscribing in favour or against this view.......well not publicly on here.)

 

 

 

.

 

.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Ron Ron Ron

[TomScrut]

22 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

It's a different scenario though Tom.

 

There's already a Class 43 power car made to reasonable modern standards of detail (yes it can be much improved).

Who would be willing to duplicate it?

 

There wasn't such a decent RTR model of the Class 91 in existence, only the old, low fidelity (Railroad quality ?) model, that Hornby have not replaced or updated in years.

I would say, that was a worthwhile target for another manufacturer to tackle, in the absence of any previous effort from Hornby.

 

It's not a question of squabbling about  "who should be allowed to make 91s", but more an expression of disquiet and suspicion that Hornby's motives are more inclined towards the ruthless, cynical, kill the competition, end of the commercial spectrum.

(note: I'm not personally subscribing in favour or against this view.......well not publicly on here.)

 

 

 

.

 

.

 

Yes you're right the HST is a good model really l, but then again the market is still probably twice the size that of the 91? And you have to buy two for a legitimate train so 4x the market in terms of use of tooling? I model ECML and I aren't interested in either (as they are being phased out IRL). Whereas I have two HSTs on order (Banana and XC) both of which looks like they were built 10 odd years before the 91s and will probably outlast them.

 

And I think the 91 wouldn't have caused any squabbling had the Terrier and class 66 situation happened prior to it.

[TravisM]

I’ve contacted Hornby regarding additional additional coaches for the two LNER Class 800/1 they have announced.  The prototype type has 9 cars and Hornby are only producing them as a 5 car set.  
 

I asked them why there happy to produce additional cars for the APT which only ran for a very short period of time in the 80’s whereas the IET’s are expected to last 30+ years.  I praised Hornby for producing the APT but suggested that the reconsider doing additional coaches for the IET but I’ve not had a reply.

[MGR Hooper!]

2 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

Well that would make you a Hornby apologist then on here & the Cavalex Class 91 thread...seriously don't call anyone a Hornby basher if we dare to critique Hornby's products or communications, that's just lazy.

 

 

If you say so...!

[GordonC]

14 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Yes you're right the HST is a good model really l, but then again the market is still probably twice the size that of the 91? And you have to buy two for a legitimate train so 4x the market in terms of use of tooling? I model ECML and I aren't interested in either (as they are being phased out IRL). Whereas I have two HSTs on order (Banana and XC) both of which looks like they were built 10 odd years before the 91s and will probably outlast them.

 

And I think the 91 wouldn't have caused any squabbling had the Terrier and class 66 situation happened prior to it.

 

Personally, I could see Hornby's point about the Class 66 (the Terrier is well out of region and era for me so have no opinion on that). They already had tooling for it and they were bringing out current day liveries at a cheaper price than competitors so I can imagine perhaps younger modellers or those with less budget wanting something they can or have seen on the current railway and loco options on that front are limited. I would also suggest that the potential market for Class 66s would be far higher than that for the Class 91.

 

This also isn't just slapping new paint on their existing Class 91 tooling and chucking that out to see what sells, they are retooling from scratch here and from the RRP price it looks like both are aiming at similar areas of the market, the Hornby may come in slightly cheaper but the Cavalex is likely to be more feature-rich.

 

On hearing Simon Kohlers interview comments about the Mk4 coaches, that is the same kind of wording as was used for the 91 before - non-commital, maybe you'll get it and maybe you wont. That is hardly a clear indication that they have plans for it and even the Hornbyistas here cannot possibly interpret that as a 'yes, they're on their way so the Mk4 is ours and everyone else leave them alone'.

 

I know Hornby keep their plans close to their chest until its actually announced, but I'd expect duplication especially for more niche classes would be a bad thing all round and Hornby must have suffered at times too. Would it be a suggestion to outline what prototypes its looking at in the next 5 or 10 years possibly so not confirmed releases and liveries that 'these are coming' but the kind of realistic intentions which might get a nudge or wink if asked at exhibitions.

 

I know manufacturers have been slated in the past for long delivery times, but I can imagine there is a lot of work going into producing such detailed models and wasted effort and reduced sales cannot help anyone when there could be far more productive avenues to follow. Surely there should be space in the market for smaller manufacturers to get started too and stand or fail on the quality of their products. If Hornby is the best then they should have nothing to fear and just look very childish with their current aggressive approach to competition.

 

[truffy]

15 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

He's had time to polish the narrative on the claimed justification for the 66.

 

24 minutes ago, GordonC said:

Personally, I could see Hornby's point about the Class 66 (the Terrier is well out of region and era for me so have no opinion on that). They already had tooling for it and they were bringing out current day liveries at a cheaper price than competitors so I can imagine perhaps younger modellers or those with less budget wanting something they can or have seen on the current railway and loco options on that front are limited.

 

As SK said, in comparison with an unnamed more expensive and detailed alternative, you pays yer money an' you takes yer choice. Can't say fairer than that.

Edited January 15, 2020 by truffy

[Legend]

The 66 is different though . Its actually a pretty good market , a low spec lower price Hornby one and a High Spec Higher price Hattons one . Each in a myriad of liveries . So there's really great consumer choice here , possibly because the 66 is so widespread in real life , so lots of choice .

 

With the 91 ,31 machines confined to East Coast normally only running with mk4s . Both models are reasonably high spec and high price , so this is pure duplication not widening the market choice . I actually do wonder if Hornby wouldn't have been better providing their existing model in all the different paint schemes eg "For the fallen"" Flying Scotsman " at a lower price point with matching mk4s using their existing model . That way people could have had a low spec/ high spec choice like the 66. Ironically, this may have caused more damage/abstracted sales from the Cavalex model . Look at how successful the 66s have been  even though you've got the wrong colour schemes on body styles . While some people must have ultimate accuracy there is a large market that will settle for something cheaper but looks the part (probably including me).  I do have a Hornby VTEC 91/Mk4 trainset from a few years back . id have been happy if they released more mk4s in VTEC/ LNER livery to replace my clumsily repainted ones.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Legend

[classy52]

58 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

If you say so...!

 

You see again that's just lazy...moving on now.

[Steamport Southport]

It's obvious to Blind Pugh that they've been working on these models for quite a few years.

 

What are they meant to do, announce them five years before even starting them and get constant complaints of "Where are they?" (see Bachmann and Kernow threads) or announce them when they have something tangible to show?

 

Notice that Hornby is getting accused of trampling on other manufacturers by making the same models. Where's the Rails Terrier? The Hornby version has been in the shops for a year. Yet Hornby are somehow to blame.....

 

I don't remember anyone moaning when Mainline and Airfix both made Royal Scots, or Lima and Hornby made HSTs. People just picked the one they wanted.

 

 

 

Jason

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

If you say so...!

 

26 minutes ago, classy52 said:

 

You see again that's just lazy...moving on now.

 

Put the handbags away or there will be moderation.

[TomScrut]

46 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

Personally, I could see Hornby's point about the Class 66 (the Terrier is well out of region and era for me so have no opinion on that). They already had tooling for it and they were bringing out current day liveries at a cheaper price than competitors so I can imagine perhaps younger modellers or those with less budget wanting something they can or have seen on the current railway and loco options on that front are limited. I would also suggest that the potential market for Class 66s would be far higher than that for the Class 91.

 

This also isn't just slapping new paint on their existing Class 91 tooling and chucking that out to see what sells, they are retooling from scratch here and from the RRP price it looks like both are aiming at similar areas of the market, the Hornby may come in slightly cheaper but the Cavalex is likely to be more feature-rich.

 

On hearing Simon Kohlers interview comments about the Mk4 coaches, that is the same kind of wording as was used for the 91 before - non-commital, maybe you'll get it and maybe you wont. That is hardly a clear indication that they have plans for it and even the Hornbyistas here cannot possibly interpret that as a 'yes, they're on their way so the Mk4 is ours and everyone else leave them alone'.

 

I know Hornby keep their plans close to their chest until its actually announced, but I'd expect duplication especially for more niche classes would be a bad thing all round and Hornby must have suffered at times too. Would it be a suggestion to outline what prototypes its looking at in the next 5 or 10 years possibly so not confirmed releases and liveries that 'these are coming' but the kind of realistic intentions which might get a nudge or wink if asked at exhibitions.

 

I know manufacturers have been slated in the past for long delivery times, but I can imagine there is a lot of work going into producing such detailed models and wasted effort and reduced sales cannot help anyone when there could be far more productive avenues to follow. Surely there should be space in the market for smaller manufacturers to get started too and stand or fail on the quality of their products. If Hornby is the best then they should have nothing to fear and just look very childish with their current aggressive approach to competition.

 

 

Yes I wasn't saying I agree with the 66 "issue". The 66 market is very much Bachmann vs Hattons or if you don't want to pay that much then buy Hornby instead. 

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Yes I wasn't saying I agree with the 66 "issue". The 66 market is very much Bachmann vs Hattons or if you don't want to pay that much then buy Hornby instead. 

OO Class 66:

 

Premiership, Hattons,

Championship, Bachmann,

League One, Hornby.

 

Prices set accordingly.

 

John