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Hornby 2020 range announcements

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46 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Airfix had planned, just for the SR.

 

Schools 4-4-0

Lord Nelson 4-6-0

U Class 2-6-0

LSWR O2 0-4-4T

LSWR G6 0-6-0T

Bulleid coaches

SR Pillbox brake

 

 

Jason

 

Some of them , the Schools and Bullieds actually appeared in background of their catalogues . Isn't it correct that the Bullieds are actually the same as the ones that Bachmann eventually released in the 90s?

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1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

Some of them , the Schools and Bullieds actually appeared in background of their catalogues . Isn't it correct that the Bullieds are actually the same as the ones that Bachmann eventually released in the 90s?

 

Yes. A lot of them later appeared in other ranges such as Dapol, Replica and Bachmann. They must have done much of the research and development.

 

They also planned a similar amount for the other railways. Just goes to show that Airfix and Mainline were planning on making full ranges like the current Hornby and Bachmann ranges,

 

 

 

Jason

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4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Standard size boxes are used to maximise storage space utilisation in warehouses and containers/delivery vehicles.  It's a difficult thing to be precise about, and undoubtedly the extra and unnecessary material used in oversized boxes has a carbon cost, but so does empty space in containers and warehouses, and the extra handling, manual or mechanical, needed to cope with non-standard size boxes.  It sounds mad, I know, but boxes of mostly fresh air save handling costs.  Swings and roundabouts...

I wonder when Greta Funberg and her band of whimsical japesters will turn their attention to the carbon footprint of shipping air around? And the reduced efficiency of shipping real goods. 

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4 minutes ago, truffy said:

I wonder when Greta Funberg and her band of whimsical japesters will turn their attention to the carbon footprint of shipping air around? And the reduced efficiency of shipping real goods. 

 

The 'extra air' doesn't add anything to the carbon footprint, as it doesn't add any weight. There's no increase in the amount of fuel required to transport it.

 

This is getting a little off topic though...

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34 minutes ago, jrb said:

The 'extra air' doesn't add anything to the carbon footprint, as it doesn't add any weight. There's no increase in the amount of fuel required to transport it.

 

You missed the second sentence of my post. Shipping air means that there's less room for goods, so more individual shipments have to be made.

 

Similarly, many aqueous-based formulations are shipped as concentrates and diluted on receipt, to optimise shipping efficiency. A catalogue shipped in a huge box is taking up space that could be used for something else.

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4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

If you tip the box upside down, does the air fall out ?

;)

Only if it old, like me....I speak from experience!

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14 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

You missed the second sentence of my post. Shipping air means that there's less room for goods, so more individual shipments have to be made.

 

Similarly, many aqueous-based formulations are shipped as concentrates and diluted on receipt, to optimise shipping efficiency. A catalogue shipped in a huge box is taking up space that could be used for something else.

 

It does depend a bit though, not saying you're wrong (I think my point when I finish writing it probably means I agree in fact) but as far as I am aware things are shipped by volumetric weight, not sure if that is the correct term but bear with me. It is where the weight and volume are compared to create a worst case.

 

So gold bullion would be taking up more space in the vehicle than its volume would suggest because of its mass (and not being able to fill the vehicle because of the mass of the gold). On the other hand a box with nothing in it would more than likely be taking up more volume than its mass.

 

And I think whatever transport vehicle is used this ratio varies.

 

What I am saying is something like a catalogue which is fairly dense, in a cardboard box may actually be about on the balance of efficient depending on the size of van and lorry the courier uses!

 

But putting it in an envelope still makes it space efficient just whether the space left can be used or not is another matter

 

 

Edited by TomScrut
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On 16/01/2020 at 18:34, The Johnster said:

I do, but alongside the moans (which you heard at shows or in magazine letters pages rather than on line where there is much more opportunity to indulge in a bit of a moan) were the comparisons.  FWIW, and it's academic because I was never in the market for either a Scoyal Rot or one of them wedgy HST things, I'd have gone for the Mainline Scot because I don't like tender drive, and the Lima HST because, at that time, they had the edge on H in tooling and finish, as well as scale length coaches.

 

I'd have made a decision about the Scot that would have been ill-advised given the hindsight knowledge of Mainline's split chassis issues.  I had an Airfix Castle which looked ok but I was never happy with the running of it.  This was the period during which I developed my hatred of traction tyres.

At the time, I had the general impression that people greeted Airfix locos with delight, which I just couldn’t understand. Solid plastic tender wheels jarred badly with the metal-rimmed loco wheels for a start. The worst of all, in my opinion, was the Class 31, which had metal wheels on one bogie and plastic on the other. Not only were the outer wheels plastic but the middle wheels were moulded as part of the bogie frame. It looked so obvious to me that I wondered if people were blind or, perhaps, they praised Airfix because it was British. In motion, they fizzled and crackled so much that it seemed as if the whole town’s power supply would short out. After some initial false steps, the Mainline finishes were beautiful. It prompted Hornby to start painting models which, up until then, were self-coloured plastic. The difference was amazing.

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4 hours ago, NoggintheNog said:

Rails sent my catalogue in a padded envelope/jiffy bag thing.

 

Arrived just fine. 

 

I've noticed that Rails tend to be a bit more wide-ranging with their packaging, and somewhat less standardised, than Hatton's. Whenever I've bought anything from Hatton's it's always arrived in a fairly standard box - typically, the long thin ones used for locos and wagons, but sometimes a larger, more rectangular one - and the box is always new. Rails seem to use whatever they have to hand, and don't mind reusing boxes - my Bachmann crane arrived in the box that Bachmann sent it to Rails in, but with the extra space (since I'd only ordered one) filled with foam packaging.

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In regards to Key Publishing, this wasn't the case for me as I received mine in a condition that looked like a bus had ran over it. Had some stern words with them and the replacement was sent in a padded pouch thing. I wouldn't have cared much had it been just a cheap magazine but a Hornby 2020 Brochure at £12 odd (including postage) isn't cheap in my books. I am happy that I got a replacement but if companies use something like a cardboard sleeve or one of those padded pouches. That is ample enough to protect the Brochure in transit when going through the postal system ;).

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1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

Rails seem to use whatever they have to hand, and don't mind reusing boxes 

 

I've had that experience as well...recycling cardboard packaging without the environmental impact of cardboard recycling! :good_mini:

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3 hours ago, truffy said:
4 hours ago, jrb said:

 

The 'extra air' doesn't add anything to the carbon footprint, as it doesn't add any weight. There's no increase in the amount of fuel required to transport it.

 

 

You missed the second sentence of my post. Shipping air means that there's less room for goods, so more individual shipments have to be made.

 

 

The reason that the extra air can have an effect is due to the fuel used to move the weight of the vehicle itself.

 

To take an extreme example, if you deliver a set of Hornby catalogues each in its own lorry, the total amount of fuel used to deliver them would be a lot greater than if you filled the lorry with catalogues, because you're moving a lot more lorry around. 

 

On the other hand, as someone else has pointed out, maybe you can't fill the lorry. If you can only fill a quarter of the space with catalogues before it exceeds the maximum permitted weight, and each box is four times the volume needed for a catalogue, than the larger boxes aren't doing much harm.

 

And in a desparate attempt to bring this vaguely towards the original topic, if I order something from the 2020 range directly from Hornby, I wonder how big a box it will come in?

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

If you tip the box upside down, does the air fall out ?

;)

If it's been in a cold van all night, and you open it in your warm railway room, Yes.:jester:

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12 hours ago, truffy said:

 

I've had that experience as well...recycling cardboard packaging without the environmental impact of cardboard recycling! :good_mini:


Hatton’s used to be very good at that. I’m convinced they used to have an arrangement with the local supermarket as I’ve had stuff in reused and chopped up Persil boxes and the like. 

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11 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

On the other hand, as someone else has pointed out, maybe you can't fill the lorry. If you can only fill a quarter of the space with catalogues before it exceeds the maximum permitted weight, and each box is four times the volume needed for a catalogue, than the larger boxes aren't doing much harm.

You almost certainly can't 'fill' a lorry with catalogues.  Paper is very heavy in bulk, being basically highly condensed wood, and you'd overload it.  

 

When I were a lad, and everything was still in black and white (colour was invented by the Beatles in 1963, as everyone knows), the local newspaoer was printed in a building opposite Cardiff's old main Post Office in Westgate St.  Every morning, a BR Scammel mechanical horse flatbed would turn up at about 9.30 with 3 huge rolls of paper from Ely Paper Mill.  The basement trap doors were opened, and the rolls pinchbarred off the flatbed to drop about 20 feet to the floor.  This was a very impressive thing to watch, as the whole street shook when they impacted with a massive thud.  If anyone were to have been underneath it, there wouldn't have been much left...

 

 

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40 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

You almost certainly can't 'fill' a lorry with catalogues.  Paper is very heavy in bulk, being basically highly condensed wood, and you'd overload it.  

 

When I were a lad, and everything was still in black and white (colour was invented by the Beatles in 1963, as everyone knows), the local newspaoer was printed in a building opposite Cardiff's old main Post Office in Westgate St.  Every morning, a BR Scammel mechanical horse flatbed would turn up at about 9.30 with 3 huge rolls of paper from Ely Paper Mill.  The basement trap doors were opened, and the rolls pinchbarred off the flatbed to drop about 20 feet to the floor.  This was a very impressive thing to watch, as the whole street shook when they impacted with a massive thud.  If anyone were to have been underneath it, there wouldn't have been much left...

 

You'd still need a helluva lot of paper to make a paperweight though. ;)

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21 hours ago, Legend said:

 

Some of them , the Schools and Bullieds actually appeared in background of their catalogues . Isn't it correct that the Bullieds are actually the same as the ones that Bachmann eventually released in the 90s?

 

IIRC the now Dapol Staniers, The now Bachmann P1 LMS coaches and the now Hornby P2 LMS 12 wheeled kitchen car all share common ancestry through Airfix/Mainline

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11 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

IIRC the now Dapol Staniers, The now Bachmann P1 LMS coaches and the now Hornby P2 LMS 12 wheeled kitchen car all share common ancestry through Airfix/Mainline

 

I think the Restaurant 3rd was a Dapol creation. I think that it was just coming out when I visited David Boyle many years ago.

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19 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think the Restaurant 3rd was a Dapol creation. I think that it was just coming out when I visited David Boyle many years ago.

 

The Restaurant Car was Airfix, it's mentioned in the Ramsay's Guide. Mine came in what was virtually Airfix packaging. ISTR it's a RC.

 

 

The Bachmann LMS coaches were Mainline. That's where the history becomes complicated as Dapol were still selling old Mainline stock for years even though they didn't have the tooling.

 

 

 

Jason

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53 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

IIRC the now Dapol Staniers, The now Bachmann P1 LMS coaches and the now Hornby P2 LMS 12 wheeled kitchen car all share common ancestry through Airfix/Mainline

 

40 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think the Restaurant 3rd was a Dapol creation. I think that it was just coming out when I visited David Boyle many years ago.

 

As Southport says, the Dapol Staniers (and the 'Inter-District' non-corridors) originated in the Airfix range, as did the 12-wheel dining car, although I don't think it ever materialised in Airfix guise- Despite being in the Airfix catalogue for a couple of years, it didn't eventually reach the shops until the range had passed (via Palitoy) to Dapol. The P1 brake and composite, plus the 50' full brake, all originated with Mainline, and went on to the Bachmann range.

 

Thinking back it's quite impressive that the two manufacturers managed to avoid duplicating the same LMS coach designs, even if we did get the inevitable combination of Composite and Brake 3rd for each. Throw in Lima's GUV, and the LMS modeller wasn't all that badly served for RTR coaching stock back then. On top of that, Replica Railways went on to offer the Stanier open 3rd- Was that another product that had it's origins at either Airfix/Mainline but never reached the market under their branding?

 

OK, they're not to modern standards, but compared with Hornby's 'toy' Staniers of the period (IIRC, a 60' composite compressed onto a standard 57' chassis with BR Mk1 bogies!), they were a massive step forward.

 

(catalogue image from airfixrailways.co.uk)

 

CoachesA.jpg

Edited by Invicta
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9 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The Restaurant Car was Airfix, it's mentioned in the Ramsay's Guide. Mine came in what was virtually Airfix packaging. ISTR it's a RC.

 

 

The Bachmann LMS coaches were Mainline. That's where the history becomes complicated as Dapol were still selling old Mainline stock for years even though they didn't have the tooling.

 

 

 

Jason

 

It certainly was complicated. I do remember that from my talk with David.

 

An RC would make more sense than a Restaurant Third as there was not a First Vestibule to go with it. I will have to dig mine out and check.

 

I think that those Vestibule 3rd's passed me by completely.

 

What year would that catalogue have been?

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11 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The Restaurant Car was Airfix, it's mentioned in the Ramsay's Guide. Mine came in what was virtually Airfix packaging. ISTR it's a RC.

 

 

The Bachmann LMS coaches were Mainline. That's where the history becomes complicated as Dapol were still selling old Mainline stock for years even though they didn't have the tooling.

 

 

 

Jason

 

The complication starts with the demise of Airfix, and the sale of the range to Palitoy who incorporated part of it into the Mainline range, before General Mills pulled the plug on their involvement in the toy market a few years later, at which point the Airfix tooling and Mainline stock (but not the tooling) went to Dapol.

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1 minute ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

It certainly was complicated. I do remember that from my talk with David.

 

An RC would make more sense than a Restaurant Third as there was not a First Vestibule to go with it. I will have to dig mine out and check.

 

I think that those Vestibule 3rd's passed me by completely.

 

What year would that catalogue have been?

 

As you say, it really was complicated- especially when you bear in mind that some of the ex-Airfix, ex-Dapol stuff has ended up in Margate, and that's before you go into the travel of the ex-Mainline tooling to the Bachmann range via Replica and the odd court case...

 

The Airfix catalogue images are 1980, and can be found here: http://www.airfixrailways.co.uk/ARScoachInd.htm

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Invicta said:

 

 

That's right, the Dapol Staniers and the 'Inter-District' non-corridors originated in the Airfix range, as did the 12-wheel dining car, although I don't think it ever materialised in Airfix guise, not actually reaching the shops until the range had passed (via Palitoy) to Dapol. The P1 brake and composite, plus the 50' full brake, all  originated with Mainline.

 

Thinking back it's quite impressive that the two manufacturers managed to avoid duplicating the same LMS coach design, even if we did get the inevitable combination of Composite and Brake 3rd for each. Throw in Lima's GUV, and the LMS modeller wasn't all that badly served for RTR coaching stock back then. On top of that, Replica Railways went on to offer the Stanier open 3rd- Was that another product that had it's origins at either Airfix/Mainline but never reached the market under their branding?

 

OK, they're not to modern standards, but compared with Hornby's 'toy' Staniers of the period (IIRC, a 60' composite compressed onto a standard 57' chassis with BR Mk1 bogies!), they were a massive step forward.

 

(catalogue image from airfixrailways.co.uk)

 

CoachesA.jpg

 

I've never seen an image of the open 3rd in Crimson and Cream. As far as I was aware they were only in LMS and BR Maroon.

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18 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

I've noticed that Rails tend to be a bit more wide-ranging with their packaging, and somewhat less standardised, than Hatton's. Whenever I've bought anything from Hatton's it's always arrived in a fairly standard box - typically, the long thin ones used for locos and wagons, but sometimes a larger, more rectangular one - and the box is always new. Rails seem to use whatever they have to hand, and don't mind reusing boxes - my Bachmann crane arrived in the box that Bachmann sent it to Rails in, but with the extra space (since I'd only ordered one) filled with foam packaging.

That is fascinating! Not once in my life have I ever received anything from Hattons in a new box! It has always been a cut down and taped together version of what had obviously been used before! They also used to arrive wrapped in brown paper tied with string!

Colin.

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