Hornby 2020 range announcements

[TomScrut]

12 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

If you're buying a model to use on a layout, though, then the resale value is broadly irrelevant, because even using it is going to reduce the resale value. In which case, you may as well spend a little effort making it look how you want it, rather than how it came out of the box, if the out of the box condition isn't entirely to your liking.

 

I don't see how resale value is broadly irrelevant when running something on a layout. If I buy something (new or second hand mint) and then keep it for a year or two I want to be able to get as much as I can for it second hand. If I know something is a "keeper" then I'd be more likely to modify it.

[rob D2]

12 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I don't see how resale value is broadly irrelevant when running something on a layout. If I buy something (new or second hand mint) and then keep it for a year or two I want to be able to get as much as I can for it second hand. If I know something is a "keeper" then I'd be more likely to modify it.

I have a core fleet and some I’m less excited about. Core fleet can be weathered etc...not the others as I know I may move them on.

 

if I deem something “ rare” I may leave it be, incase it’ll make a few quid 

[eldomtom2]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

We only have to decide if a model is good enough for us to hand over cash.

The problem is that "don't like it, don't buy it" has become a bit of a mantra in response to any criticism.

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

But you all seem to be missing the point still.

I want Hornby to progress and advance in their chassis tooling, livery, paint and features but when highlighting an issue and then getting railed on it doesn't help in getting model train makers to improve their products because they will still churn out the errors or whatever thus it is accepted and yes it goes back to price because as you can see the HST Pack has shot up in price in the last couple of years but there is still a lack to attention to detail or it does improve in one area but lacks in another.

What I find amazing Hornby go ahead and put on the latest stickers on the NR HST model to reflect current day running but don't do anything about the colour of the horn grill and camera box at the ends.

Yes true the product is just a want and people can vote with their wallet which I have currently done by cancelling my pre-order, if Hornby do correct it then I will reinstate my order because at this price it's the principle of the matter and something simple like this issue should be done at source.

Personally, given what you would have got for your £260, i.e. the equivalent of one loco plus one coach, I reckon the price of the Hornby HST power car pack is about £50 OTT and that would still be the case if all the bits that should be black, were.  They are just charging what they consider the market will stand.

 

Fortunately, that is purely academic for me, as HSTs don't fit in with any of my modelling interests.

 

John

[Phil Parker]

36 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

The problem is that "don't like it, don't buy it" has become a bit of a mantra in response to any criticism.

 

Because it's true.

 

This is a HOBBY. We are talking about discretionary purchases but a small number of people howl as though a minor perceived inaccuracy, or a price higher than they are willing to pay, is the end of the world. Food, water and shelter are essential. Model railways less so.

 

In a free market system, it's also a very practical response. If everyone is unhappy with a model and it doesn't sell, the maker will do something different next time. Perhaps paint that grille or stop moulding those handrails. Voting with your wallet is far more effective than venting on a forum.

[Jack P]

1 hour ago, rob D2 said:

Dear manufacturers ,

Don’t bother soldering the PCB because I need to practice my soldering...

 

I’m sorry Phil , that level of strange logic , leaves me almost speechless 

 

I think that's gaslighting the issue to an extent. I appreciate they're in the same vein, but adding a small amount of paint (in reality: easy) as opposed to soldering DCC ready wiring to a pcb within the constrains of a RTR loco is (comparative to painting) difficult.  Yes the missing paint should be there, but cosmetic issues and mechanical issues are, fundamentally different. 

 

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Replacing a wing mirror doesn't make you a F1 driver, it does make you a car mechanic.

 

Correcting factory errors teaches you useful hand-eye coordination and how to operate tools. Isn't that modelling?

 

 

In the same vein as Phil's comment, I've spent a good amount of time this weekend replacing the brakes (rotors and pads) on my car, as well as touching up a damaged rub strip on the front bumper - I'm not suggesting that this makes me a formula one driver, (although, again, that analogy seems to go right to the extreme end of the comparison), nor do I think it makes me a qualified mechanic. But it does make me someone who is willing to have a go and do things myself - not to mention, when there's a group of mates all doing it together and having a laugh, it's both fun and rewarding knowing that you've done it yourself/together. Certainly more fun and rewarding than handing over a (possibly) considerable amount of $$$ to a shop. 

 

On Phil's second point, I bought the LSWR van mentioned earlier, knowing full well that I would need to repaint it to be happy with the finish - yes, maybe it would be slightly easier if I could just open the box, and run it without having to worry about things being correct, but I also had to weather it, and fit screw link couplings (chosen coupling method), I'm also choosing to stick with OO and not convert it to P4 - So it involved a level of "Correction" and compromise regardless of the colour. I hope Hornby do produce a new correct run of these vans, so that the older models in the incorrect colour get a nice price reduction and I can pick a few more up! (because despite the paint shade, they are excellent little models!)

 

 

I like tinkering and modifying things, which might not be everyone's cup of tea. But if that means that there's something wrong with a product, that I think I'd be able to fix, and that 'something wrong'; is the deciding factor in me owning it or not? Well, I'd rather own it. Having said that, I also don't purchase models with the intent to ever make a profit from them, or even really consider their resale value. So obviously the approach, and extent of time and involvement one is willing to put into this hobby can be endlessly vast as the people who choose to enjoy it, however that may be.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Jack P

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, rob D2 said:

Dear manufacturers ,

Don’t bother soldering the PCB because I need to practice my soldering...

 

I’m sorry Phil , that level of strange logic , leaves me almost speechless 

 

A non-soldered PDB is a fault that stops the model working. That's a repair. Your argument that using modelling skills to modify a model isn't modelling confuses me.

[Dunsignalling]

46 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I don't see how resale value is broadly irrelevant when running something on a layout. If I buy something (new or second hand mint) and then keep it for a year or two I want to be able to get as much as I can for it second hand. If I know something is a "keeper" then I'd be more likely to modify it.

TBH, just running it screws any collector value, and detailing/weathering, if carried out competently, can improve your chances of getting a decent return when you move it on.

 

On the other hand, I've occasionally bought professionally-done models for less than the weathering job originally cost. 

 

Everything depends on who is looking for what at the time you decide to sell.

 

I fit (non-NEM) Kadee couplers to most of my stuff and they are so widely used nowadays that they don't affect the price by anything like as much as they used to. Anything I think I might shift later does get the plug-in type though!

 

John

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, Jack P said:

On Phil's second point, I bought the LSWR van mentioned earlier, knowing full well that I would need to repaint it to be happy with the finish - yes, maybe it would be slightly easier if I could just open the box, and run it without having to worry about the colour being correct, but I also had to weather it, and fit screw link couplings (chosen coupling method) - So it involved a level of "Correction" regardless of the colour. 

 

Couplings are a good example. For a UK model to be "correct", it should have 3-links (also P4 wheels). Should an manufacturer fit these and leave tension-locks to the past? I suspect most people would say not. Most accept the incorrect couplings with the same enthusiasm they accept the incorrect track gauge. Some will fix them, but most won't.

[Jack P]

Just now, Phil Parker said:

 

Couplings are a good example. For a UK model to be "correct", it should have 3-links (also P4 wheels). Should an manufacturer fit these and leave tension-locks to the past? I suspect most people would say not. Most accept the incorrect couplings with the same enthusiasm they accept the incorrect track gauge. Some will fix them, but most won't.

 

Thanks Phil. I actually realised, admittedly sometime later, that the screw shackles were incorrect, and it's now correctly fitted with 3 links! I think what you're alluding to here lines up nicely with the debate over sprung buffers on locos or rolling stock, sure, if you use tension locks, you don't need them. Anything closer where buffer locking on corners is a real issue - it makes a massive difference. 

 

This hobby is all about compromise, and where any one individual decides to draw the line.

[Steamport Southport]

13 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

TBH, just running it screws any collector value, and detailing/weathering, if carried out competently, can improve your chances of getting a decent return when you move it on.

 

On the other hand, I've occasionally bought professionally-done models for less than the weathering job originally cost. 

 

Everything depends on who is looking for what at the time you decide to sell.

 

I fit (non-NEM) Kadee couplers to most of my stuff and they are so widely used nowadays that they don't affect the price by anything like as much as they used to. Anything I think I might shift later does get the plug-in type though!

 

John

 

If any one hasn't seen it, watch the James May's Toy Stories programme where he's talking to the collector for evidence of this. The collectors even check if there are any scuffs on the wheels....

 

 

 

Jason

Edited February 22, 2020 by Steamport Southport
speelchucker

[Compound2632]

To the modeller, everything is a scratch-aid. 

[rob D2]

22 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

A non-soldered PDB is a fault that stops the model working. That's a repair. Your argument that using modelling skills to modify a model isn't modelling confuses me.

Using modelling skills to correct a manufacturing fault, may use same skills, but I don’t consider it modelling . I paint my bathroom using hand eye coordination and tools - that isn’t modelling either.

 

However Hornby could use this as a strap line “ new class 60 with incorrect sector logos includes 2 hrs worth of Tcut time and swearing - free !”.

 

And we are helter sheltering down the rabbit hole once we get to the “ food water and shelter “ are more important arguments. Might as well quit all hobbies and build and stock a bunker instead for the forthcoming apocalypse.

 

I also had to look up “ gaslighting “ as I’m not familiar with that term , apparently I’m attempting psychological manipulation ......blimey ....

[Robin Brasher]

I used to live in Sussex and the lady who ran a model car shop described a mint and boxed Dinky Toy as a failed toy.  We had a Wrenn evening at the Sussex Vintage Model Railway Club and one member put his Wrenn streamlined Coronation Pacific on the track. It  screached and groaned as it  ran half a circuit of the track.  Another member of the club asked if he would like him to put a drop of oil on it. The owner of the Coronation panicked and told him not to oil it as it will ruin its resale value as a mint and boxed locomotive.

 

Coming back to Hornby's 2020 releases my problem about the LSWR brake van that Hornby are now aware that the LSWR brake van is the wrong colour but seem to be going ahead and producing a further batch in the wrong colour. I am happy to repaint the model in the correct shade of brown but I would rather have the time to complete my layout.  

 

 

[classy52]

2 hours ago, Half-full said:

 

So, correct me if Im wrong, you would run coaches that you know are incorrect,  5 of them which is about £150-£200 worth, but you are getting upset over a very small unpainted part on the power cars to haul them?  You want the pc's to be 100% accurate but not the rolling stock?

 

You're happy to pay £30-40 per coach for an old tooling, which you know is wrong, but are not happy to pay £260 for the associated PC's, which have the correct details  AFAIK, because they have a tiny paint error?

 

I dont understand that, but maybe thats just me.

 

Now you're comparing 5 coaches @£30 each with a HST loco set which only one is powered @£260 or more, and where did I say I wanted 100% accuracy?

I'm being derided in this thread because I pointed out an inaccuracy and would like Hornby to consider fixing it and practically everyone who has put their 2 pence worth thinks I'm upset and my life is about to go south which for me from where I'm standing is completely insane!...beyond my first post on this subject I couldn't care less if they fix it or not and as you all keep pointing out 'I don't have to buy it'.

Those NR Mk3 coaches are still cheap compared to a lot of other coaches offered elsewhere by Hornby or others thus yes I am prepared to pay that with the inaccuracies but when a product nears £300 then it becomes different and more effort needs to be applied towards accuracy by any of the manufacturers not just Hornby.

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I fit (non-NEM) Kadee couplers to most of my stuff and they are so widely used nowadays that they don't affect the price by anything like as much as they used to. Anything I think I might shift later does get the plug-in type though!

 

A good source of bargains on eBay can be to search for second hand models with "no couplings". Nine times out of ten, they've actually got three-links fitted by a previous owner, but the person selling them doesn't realise that and thinks they're being helpful by being honest about what they perceive as a fault.

[rob D2]

56 minutes ago, classy52 said:

 

Now you're comparing 5 coaches @£30 each with a HST loco set which only one is powered @£260 or more, and where did I say I wanted 100% accuracy?

I'm being derided in this thread because I pointed out an inaccuracy and would like Hornby to consider fixing it and practically everyone who has put their 2 pence worth thinks I'm upset and my life is about to go south which for me from where I'm standing is completely insane!...beyond my first post on this subject I couldn't care less if they fix it or not and as you all keep pointing out 'I don't have to buy it'.

Those NR Mk3 coaches are still cheap compared to a lot of other coaches offered elsewhere by Hornby or others thus yes I am prepared to pay that with the inaccuracies but when a product nears £300 then it becomes different and more effort needs to be applied towards accuracy by any of the manufacturers not just Hornby.

Hey, you don’t have to buy it...;).

 

I don’t think anyone’s deriding you, it’s just a difference of opinions which is what makes forums interesting TBH. 
if we all agreed on everything it’d be a bit dull, and everyone’s made their points in an adult way 

Edited February 22, 2020 by rob D2

[eldomtom2]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Because it's true.

 

This is a HOBBY. We are talking about discretionary purchases but a small number of people howl as though a minor perceived inaccuracy, or a price higher than they are willing to pay, is the end of the world. Food, water and shelter are essential. Model railways less so.

 

In a free market system, it's also a very practical response. If everyone is unhappy with a model and it doesn't sell, the maker will do something different next time. Perhaps paint that grille or stop moulding those handrails. Voting with your wallet is far more effective than venting on a forum.

But how will they know to blame the unpainted grilles and moulded handrails if the people who didn't buy it don't "vent" their views? I feel with this you can take issue with the tone but not the content.

[classy52]

Just to let you all know got a response from the Hornby Rep and he has passed this onto the person responsible for creating the decoration guides.

[TomScrut]

TBH I am on the fence about which HST to get. I have decided I "need" a HST on the layout, and outlined 3 options:

 

1. Cross country, upcoming power cars and sliding doors, 4 coaches

2. New Measurement Train, 5 coaches (as it doesn't need to stop in the station!)

3. ScotRail Inter7City, 4 coaches

 

I currently have the NMT power cars and mk3s on pre order, and have the 3 from last year already. I don't like the XC livery, it's only there as it's relevant to the area I model. Inter7City is there as I love the livery and despite not basing my layout in Scotland I have ended up with a ScotRail 68 and mk2s anyway so I may end up being a North of England/Scotland mishmash anyway (rule 1 and all)...

 

The crux of the matter is actually about coaches rather than @classy52's issue though. Having seen pics of the samples for the new sliding door cars I think these looks streets ahead of the older slam door coaches in general, I know and accept these (for what they cost) aren't accurate in the context of the NMT anyway but overall look loads better anyway.

 

I'd like both TBH but I have the issue of how much stuff I already have on pre order and also the space needed for the rakes!

[Guest Half-full]

1 hour ago, classy52 said:

 

Now you're comparing 5 coaches @£30 each with a HST loco set which only one is powered @£260 or more, and where did I say I wanted 100% accuracy?

I'm being derided in this thread because I pointed out an inaccuracy and would like Hornby to consider fixing it and practically everyone who has put their 2 pence worth thinks I'm upset and my life is about to go south which for me from where I'm standing is completely insane!...beyond my first post on this subject I couldn't care less if they fix it or not and as you all keep pointing out 'I don't have to buy it'.

Those NR Mk3 coaches are still cheap compared to a lot of other coaches offered elsewhere by Hornby or others thus yes I am prepared to pay that with the inaccuracies but when a product nears £300 then it becomes different and more effort needs to be applied towards accuracy by any of the manufacturers not just Hornby.

The fact you are going on about the fact the horn grille isn't painted is alluding to the fact you want 100% accuracy -on the power cars at least,

 

Would you pay the asking price if the grille was painted?

[Jack P]

6 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I also had to look up “ gaslighting “ as I’m not familiar with that term , apparently I’m attempting psychological manipulation ......blimey ....

 

Hmm, does seem a little far fetched. Maybe i'm the one gaslighting you!

[adb968008]

On 21/02/2020 at 13:11, classy52 said:

 

I think we can safely assume the cost to Hornby for painting that would be zero considering the price already for a set that contains only one powered loco and for tooling that has been around for a while.

 

On 22/02/2020 at 07:27, TomScrut said:

 

The reason I try not to is to maintain residual value in case I decide to move it on.

 

16 hours ago, classy52 said:

Just to let you all know got a response from the Hornby Rep and he has passed this onto the person responsible for creating the decoration guides.

oh boy, 3 pages about a black spot 5mm x 3mm.

 

could I suggest a couple of compromises:

i. use a marker pen to put it on, and adrop of alcohol to take it off when done.

ii. Use water based black paint, so it can be wiped off

iii. Use a black patch of water slide transfer from fox, or others, so it can be moved off later.

 

Theres options, there are always options... one option could be to leave it on when you sell it, the buyer might appreciate it, might not notice, probably not care.
 

My experience is models don't appreciate in value, will depreciate on the rrp value and only the rarest of the rare increase in value, but collectors will haggle the most and look for the defect as means to hammering you down, but those wanting to run them, wont as much, because they want it to use...and its those buyers who tend to pay more anyway.

 

I gave up decades ago on keeping models pristine, I don't care what the price is, I will tweak it if i’m not happy with it, more often than not, the mods I make are minor, but cosmetically important to me and when I sell them it makes little to no difference.. people either want them or they don’t... do you really think after 25 years my mods to this Lima 37 will make any difference to its value? - Ive even forgotten what some of the mods I made were, though its now set on a Bachmann chassis for the next 25 years.

 

and i’m still miffed that 25 years later Ive still not done anything about that white line between the yellow end and bonnet..,Paid £39.99 for that.. when £’s were real pounds too ! - but ive had 25 years fun so far from it.

Edited February 23, 2020 by adb968008

[TomScrut]

26 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

My experience is models don't appreciate in value, will depreciate on the rrp value and only the rarest of the rare increase in value

 

It's just supply and demand. I aren't necessarily going on about rare stuff collectors want, more just stuff that's in demand because it hasn't been made for ages or was a limited edition. Also the talk about collectors is a bit of a grey area although I know of the people you mean. On the other hand plenty of people collect and run, where for example they want celeb 66s and will pay the price premium for a decent one they want whereas a real life prototypical situation (if that's all they were bothered about) you could just put in any old GBRF 66 and it still be right.

 

A few off the top of my head examples of stuff I am interested in:

 

Dapol 68019 last year before they announced the other 2 TPE locos (although have still been bringing more than RRP since just not pushing 2x RRP)

 

Bachmann non generator autoballasters seem to sell for about £50 which is more than RRP, although they would be that nowadays if they did them.

 

New Measurement Train stuff still seems to bring a price premium even if it's a slight one. The 3 coaches from last year's range bring more than RRP on eBay and dealers at shows (despite there still being stock about at RRP).

 

Some limited edition celeb 66s (for example the TFL ones, Rainbow one and NRM Evening Star) seem to sell for more than RRP. But all it takes is for Hattons to do them and the price will plummet.

 

This situation is all down to what the manufacturers make though rather than having specific collector appeal because of whatever special reason they have for wanting an item. It's purely down to wanting that train to play with and so if a rerun occurs then the premium can disappear.

 

So whilst I don't buy stuff wanting it to appreciate I don't like hindering it's chances of doing so if I have "bought well"

[adb968008]

It does amuse me that self denial and lack of awareness can coexist hand in hand...

I refer to Bachmanns 97201 Experiment class 24... it too was rarest of the rare, must have, pay premium, you wont lose...

 

Yet in 2020 people still ask £165-180 for it on ebay, and some success too...

 

despite the SLW Experiment class 24 being £185 new, insanely more detailed and available in stock.

 

I find it also interesting that Vitrains 47’s are commanding more than Bachmann 47’s too... I guess the Heljan effect seems to have knocked Bachmann 47 demand, but thats not trickled to viTrains 47’s yet, unlike though 37’s it definitely has..knocked prices.

 

I must be missing something.

Edited February 23, 2020 by adb968008