Hornby 2020 range announcements

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Live Steam?

But thankfully only operating on the single piston

 

Where am I taking this thread 

[Oldddudders]

49 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But thankfully only operating on the single piston

 

Where am I taking this thread 

I should withdraw now. Oh, ummm....

[KDG]

A bit premature surely

[The Johnster]

Even I think we’re drifting OT a little.

[Crewlisle]

On the Hornby Forum last year on 16th June after the liquidation of DJM Models, I wrote a post about the possibility of Hornby bringing back their APT model.  This was poo-pooed by a number of replies saying that it wouldn't sell, it would be too expensive, the actual APT only ran for about 4 years & other excuses for not bringing this iconic train back into production.

On the 26th June I posted the following reply to some of their reasons:

 

Naturally there is a mixture of positive and negative comments to my original post; unfortunately most appear to be negative.  Yes, there were quite a number of variations to choose from the DJModels APT;  I chose the 5 car version to fit my existing Hornby APT cassette on 'Crewlisle'.   It did run as a test train of 5 cars as I have seen a photo.

 

The two comments I do disagree with is that it would be too expensive and was only running for a short period of time 36 years ago.  The example I quote to refute these arguments is the Midland Blue Pullman which first ran 59 years ago from 1960 until 1966 when the WCML electrification from Euston to Manchester/Liverpool was completed.  Bachmann introduced their 6 car model in 2014 and I paid just under £200 with a rrp of £270 (I think) for the first run which quickly sold out.  It was so popular that they did a re-run a few years later.

An 00 gauge 5 car APT-P might be worth considering with modern motors, DCC onboard, lights and similar carriage connections to the Blue Pullman (plus of course the tilt mechanism).

 

One thing which Hornby should do is please fit a metal sprung pantograph for those of us who have catenary to make it look right!  That is the only reason I did not buy their new Class 87 because it was 10 out of 10 for the model but 0 points for the pathetic plastic pantograph.

 

Peter

Edited March 10, 2020 by Crewlisle
Minor text amendment.

[adb968008]

Ive got to admit a new APT was surprising.

And a Coronation Scot set even more so.

 

It does give hope that mk2 Pullmans and LNER Silver Jubilee / Coronation set could appear in the future.

[Clearwater]

27 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Ive got to admit a new APT was surprising.

And a Coronation Scot set even more so.

 

It does give hope that mk2 Pullmans and LNER Silver Jubilee / Coronation set could appear in the future.

I’ve long argued for a Silver Jubilee set.  I wonder whether there comes a point where the A4 needs retooling? I can see the logic in combining with a bespoke carriage set.

[Hilux5972]

6 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

I’ve long argued for a Silver Jubilee set.  I wonder whether there comes a point where the A4 needs retooling? I can see the logic in combining with a bespoke carriage set.

I agree it’s about time for the A4. It’s been 16 years since it was last released as a complete retool. Detailing has gone a long way since then. 

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

I agree it’s about time for the A4. It’s been 16 years since it was last released as a complete retool. Detailing has gone a long way since then. 

But there are several locos in greater need of a makeover, Black Five, 8F and rebuilt MN just to mention those that spring instantly to mind. Also the A3, many releases of which seem to exhibit "tooling issues".

 

John

[Ian Hargrave]

6 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

I’ve long argued for a Silver Jubilee set.  I wonder whether there comes a point where the A4 needs retooling? I can see the logic in combining with a bespoke carriage set.

 
IMHO Hornby missed the boat in 2015 with the full set of silver streaks.I think a lot will depend upon sales figures for the Coronation coaches as to whether they will revisit . I remember making “noises” about it at the time but it fell on stony ground. Interesting to reflect that the LMS has won the day here with both the carriages and the locomotives being retooled.So bathtubs as opposed to streaks for the time being,it appears.Beaver tail,anyone ?

 

   The current Hornby A4 has seen nearly two decades in production in many liveries and variants.It still holds its own as one of the best.When Dapol produced their Black Label edition a while back,many considered it inferior in overall shape to Hornby’s . The W1 is next up from Hornby in streak guise.I wonder where we’ll go from there.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
The W1 is next up from Hornby in streak guise.I wonder where we’ll go from there.

 

B17 streak - it's got to be in the mix now, there aren't many streaks left to do as surely no-one wants one of the GWR smudged monstrosities

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Clearwater said:

I’ve long argued for a Silver Jubilee set.  I wonder whether there comes a point where the A4 needs retooling? I can see the logic in combining with a bespoke carriage set.

I’d say put the carts before the horse.

 

plenty of horses out there, both at once would probably financially stress many would be purchasers, who would probably prioritise the coaches over the loco.. 

 

There is a new A4 tooling out there in OO its only around 3 years old.. what stops Dapol dropping the smoke, sound and lights and releasing a regular run of A4’s at quite a competitive price ?

 

The A4 has been tooled at least 7 times (Dublo, Trix, Hornby, Bachmann, Hornby, Golden Age and Dapol).. theres a saturation point eventually, with 4464 and 60009 in long term retirement, interest may start to fade.., Railroad Mallard aside.

 

Those who want an ultimate A4 probably already have a Dapol or Golden Age version.

 

theres 784 listings under locomotives on ebay for the search term “a4”... that beats the 453 “Flying Scotsman” listings... against 4 “R3809 Rocket”.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by adb968008

[truffy]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

When Dapol produced their Black Label edition a while back,many considered it inferior in overall shape to Hornby’s .

 

21 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

There is a new A4 tooling out there in OO its only around 3 years old.. what stops Dapol dropping the smoke, sound and lights and releasing a regular run of A4’s at quite a competitive price ?

But if Dapol’s tooling is indeed inferior, and I admit to having no skin in this particular game, then does a more competitive rerun really answer the question?

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

But if Dapol’s tooling is indeed inferior, and I admit to having no skin in this particular game, then does a more competitive rerun really answer the question?

I like Dapols A4 myself.

its down to personal preference.

 

But it exists, and just as Hornby can press out duplicate toolings of others models, leaves them equally exposed to someone doing it to them, also.

 

if Hornby did a new A4, Both Dapol and Bachmann (even Golden Age) could challenge them with models produced without additional tooling costs.

 

The coaches are afar safer bet.

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

55 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I like Dapols A4 myself.

its down to personal preference.

 

But it exists, and just as Hornby can press out duplicate toolings of others models, leaves them equally exposed to someone doing it to them, also.

 

if Hornby did a new A4, Both Dapol and Bachmann (even Golden Age) could challenge them with models produced without additional tooling costs.

 

The coaches are afar safer bet.

 

 

 

There are already probably enough model A4s in circulation for every LNER/ER modeller to own 35/34.

 

If a new model were sufficiently "better" to make current owners want to upgrade, that would just make the 784 sloshing around on eBay even more obsolete and further increase the number for sale.

 

In any event, the current Hornby offering is (IMHO) pretty darned good and there isn't a massive step forward to be obtained without prices taking a hike towards Dapol Black Label or Golden Age territory.

 

John

 

 

[Clearwater]

I agree that you’d sequence a new tooling and coach set and had the retool of the Princess Coronation loco in the back of my mind as a precedent.  
 

The other thought I had, and I’ve read conflicting comments on this topic, is that eventually tooling will wear out.  Now I’d expect that you may tool an expected multi year range ever present in a higher grade material than a one off release, but there must come a point where you’ll need to retool whether or not the model itself is an improvement.  

[Ian Hargrave]

26 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

There are already probably enough model A4s in circulation for every LNER/ER modeller to own 35/34.

 

If a new model were sufficiently "better" to make current owners want to upgrade, that would just make the 784 sloshing around on eBay even more obsolete and further increase the number for sale.

 

In any event, the current Hornby offering is (IMHO) pretty darned good and there isn't a massive step forward to be obtained without prices taking a hike towards Dapol Black Label or Golden Age territory.

 

John

 

 

And that says it all neatly and succinctly.

[Ian Hargrave]

1 minute ago, Clearwater said:

I agree that you’d sequence a new tooling and coach set and had the retool of the Princess Coronation loco in the back of my mind as a precedent.  
 

The other thought I had, and I’ve read conflicting comments on this topic, is that eventually tooling will wear out.  Now I’d expect that you may tool an expected multi year range ever present in a higher grade material than a one off release, but there must come a point where you’ll need to retool whether or not the model itself is an improvement.  

Interesting viewpoint,David. However not in my mortal coil and not,I imagine,in those of most on this forum.

But the LNER sets might just make it....well,from somebody.We have one or two alternative sources that have demonstrated an adventurous willingness to produce the unusual and unexpected.We shall continue to hope.
 

[TomScrut]

As with all of these suggestions of retooling, the question would be "How many more would we sell?"

 

I would expect in this situation Hornby would only be stealing sales from themselves and maybe generating a few more. But would the few more pay for the tooling? I doubt it.

 

Yes Dapol etc could remove features and go in against Hornby but am I not correct in thinking that the Hornby tooling still gives that a run for its money (once you take the internal features out of the equation) from what I have read about it?

 

One one hand you could argue "if you're not moving forward you're moving backwards" I think Hornby have put enough on the plate for this year to suggest they are not moving backwards!

 

I'd say a highly detailed P2 would probably be more desirable than redoing the A4, the Railroad one seems popular and I'm sure a lot of the people with those would want a better model. Especially if it coincided with the finishing of Prince of Wales.

 

A4 wise I'd love to see a 60007 in whatever state it is in when they finish the refurb of the real loco.

[Denbridge]

48 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

As with all of these suggestions of retooling, the question would be "How many more would we sell?"

 

I would expect in this situation Hornby would only be stealing sales from themselves and maybe generating a few more. But would the few more pay for the tooling? I doubt it.

 

Yes Dapol etc could remove features and go in against Hornby but am I not correct in thinking that the Hornby tooling still gives that a run for its money (once you take the internal features out of the equation) from what I have read about it?

 

One one hand you could argue "if you're not moving forward you're moving backwards" I think Hornby have put enough on the plate for this year to suggest they are not moving backwards!

 

I'd say a highly detailed P2 would probably be more desirable than redoing the A4, the Railroad one seems popular and I'm sure a lot of the people with those would want a better model. Especially if it coincided with the finishing of Prince of Wales.

 

A4 wise I'd love to see a 60007 in whatever state it is in when they finish the refurb of the real loco.

The quantum leap that all manufacturers need to make is to make more realistic valve gear. None of what has been released so far captures the look of the real thing.

[The Johnster]

More realistic valve gear, with DCC enabled forward or reverse settings and movement of the reversing lever and linkage, is one of the few areas where there is room for significant improvement left; another is between-frames valve gear and motion detail.  I can't think of much more that volume manufacturers can reasonably be expected to provide; compensated chassis, perhaps.  The biggie is realistic and realistically moving and dispersing scale steam and smoke effects, environmentally acceptable in a living room layout setting; I doubt this one will ever be cracked!

[woodenhead]

23 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

More realistic valve gear, with DCC enabled forward or reverse settings and movement of the reversing lever and linkage, is one of the few areas where there is room for significant improvement left; another is between-frames valve gear and motion detail.  I can't think of much more that volume manufacturers can reasonably be expected to provide; compensated chassis, perhaps.  The biggie is realistic and realistically moving and dispersing scale steam and smoke effects, environmentally acceptable in a living room layout setting; I doubt this one will ever be cracked!

And none of those will appear on a Hornby or Bachmann model without lifting the models outside of everyday reach in terms of cost.

 

Also how many Hornby train people would really want all that over reliable money unless there are three levels of detail Railroad, trainset, super duper detailed.

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

More realistic valve gear, with DCC enabled forward or reverse settings and movement of the reversing lever and linkage, is one of the few areas where there is room for significant improvement left; another is between-frames valve gear and motion detail.  I can't think of much more that volume manufacturers can reasonably be expected to provide; compensated chassis, perhaps.  The biggie is realistic and realistically moving and dispersing scale steam and smoke effects, environmentally acceptable in a living room layout setting; I doubt this one will ever be cracked!

Ah but uniquely, an A4 is one of the few locos you can accurately put a key in and windup... to lift the smokebox streamlining and gain access to the smokebox door.

[The Johnster]

It would represent a major change in marketing policy for the volume manufacturers, but I wouldn’t write the idea off altogether.  Prices are increasing anyway; the days of cheap RTR are gone forever, and it may be that customers demand such levels of realism for the higher prices and that manufacturers will be under pressure to improve to justify price increases. 
 

We may see new players, or rebranded old ones, entering the game. 

[Ian Hargrave]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

More realistic valve gear, with DCC enabled forward or reverse settings and movement of the reversing lever and linkage, is one of the few areas where there is room for significant improvement left; another is between-frames valve gear and motion detail.  I can't think of much more that volume manufacturers can reasonably be expected to provide; compensated chassis, perhaps.  The biggie is realistic and realistically moving and dispersing scale steam and smoke effects, environmentally acceptable in a living room layout setting; I doubt this one will ever be cracked!

Now that’s an interesting observation because in my experience of operating Hornby steam image models over the last two decades,the very fragility of the running gear is sometimes an Achilles heel ,leading to valve gear lock up,rods coming adrift and retaining nuts falling into the four foot.It would indeed be good if this were to be addressed but there has to be a cost factor which might put sales levels under stress.