Train crew uniforms through the ages

[Roddy Angus]

How about this for a series of articles?  There are a number of topics focused around adding train crew to various locomotives but the discussion seems to be based mainly around where can I get suitable steam or diesel train crew.  Would it be a good idea for one of the magazines to do a series of articles about what clothes/uniforms would have been worn by train crew and when?  During steam days, did everyone just wear filthy overalls, did a BR driver of a class 31 wear a jacket and tie, when did hi-visibility aids become the fashion and are they worn when actually driving, what is the normal dress code of Scotrail, DB, GBRF, DRS etc crew over time?

 

We seem to spend a lot of time focusing on the detail of individual locomotives, but are we prepared to just dump any old figure in the cab?  Perhaps one of the magazines could pick up on this idea, or if others on this forum have knowledge of what was worn by whom when, then perhaps they might be willing to share it with others.  For instance Big Jim, what do you normally wear when driving, do you wear a tie and jacket, fleece, jumper? If so what colours?  I know there are other train crew that are members as well, no offence meant by highlighting Big Jim.

 

I for one would like to know that if I am adding a driver to my GBRF Class 66, what would the driver be wearing.  I know nothing of this subject and can't provide any information but perhaps others can? 

 

Best wishes to everyone for the new year when it comes.

 

Roddy

[russ p]

I work for DRS and quite often if I have a BR liveried loco I wear full70/80s BR uniform. 

I was once pulled up by a manager who said why was I wearing BR uniform so I pointed at a 37/4 and said if that can wear it then so can I. No one has bothered since.

 

[DCB]

You can get a bit of a steer from old photos of locomotives with crew aboard.  In Victorian times I have read of drivers in white uniforms, but my interest is post WW2 so its blue era uniforms for me.  Railwayman's reminiscences books refer to getting overalls / uniforms laundered by mother/ wife etc, and faded uniforms being seen as a mark of seniority.  Cleaners were issued various items of uniform after a certain number of turns.   Again  the fireman of a efficient well maintained lightly loaded steam loco may well start and end a journey in clean overalls with his serge jacket on whereas if he had one of those evil monstrosities certain railways not emanating from Paddington inflicted on their minions his jacket may well have been hung over the steam pressure gauge and his white shirt made transparent with perspiration to which a thick layer of coal dust would have adhered, while his driver still had his uniform jacket on and merely had a black face from the smoke clinging to the boiler top before beating down over the cab windows...

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by DavidCBroad

[corneliuslundie]

For pre-grouping Welsh companies and the LNWR there have been a couple of illustrated articles in Welsh Railways Archive, the magazine of the Welsh Railways Research Circle.

I also recently came across the statement that LNWR uniforms were very dark blue. but I can't now remember where. The article went into quite a lot of detail on styles for different grades. It may even have been on RMWeb.

Jonathan

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Roddy Angus said:

How about this for a series of articles?  There are a number of topics focused around adding train crew to various locomotives but the discussion seems to be based mainly around where can I get suitable steam or diesel train crew.  Would it be a good idea for one of the magazines to do a series of articles about what clothes/uniforms would have been worn by train crew and when?  During steam days, did everyone just wear filthy overalls, did a BR driver of a class 31 wear a jacket and tie, when did hi-visibility aids become the fashion and are they worn when actually driving, what is the normal dress code of Scotrail, DB, GBRF, DRS etc crew over time?

 

We seem to spend a lot of time focusing on the detail of individual locomotives, but are we prepared to just dump any old figure in the cab?  Perhaps one of the magazines could pick up on this idea, or if others on this forum have knowledge of what was worn by whom when, then perhaps they might be willing to share it with others.  For instance Big Jim, what do you normally wear when driving, do you wear a tie and jacket, fleece, jumper? If so what colours?  I know there are other train crew that are members as well, no offence meant by highlighting Big Jim.

 

I for one would like to know that if I am adding a driver to my GBRF Class 66, what would the driver be wearing.  I know nothing of this subject and can't provide any information but perhaps others can? 

 

Best wishes to everyone for the new year when it comes.

 

Roddy

 

Wearing filthy overalls would be a sackable offence. ISTR it's covered in the Rule Book that all staff should be presentable.

 

Maybe if you were working on shed then that would be overlooked to a degree. But not if you were going to be seen by the public.

 

 

 

Jason

[rob D2]

EWS seemed utterly variable from shirt and tie, to jeans and fleece 

[John M Upton]

Well I have been on the railway for twelve years and have in my wardrobe no less than four different sets of uniform (all the same company as well!!) so if you were modelling the South Central/Southern bit between 2005 and now you have to be very careful to make sure any traincrew and platform staff visible are correctly attired for the year your scenario is set!!

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Wearing filthy overalls would be a sackable offence. ISTR it's covered in the Rule Book that all staff should be presentable.

 

Maybe if you were working on shed then that would be overlooked to a degree. But not if you were going to be seen by the public.

 

 

 

Jason

Not footplate but when I started on the S&T I worked with my grandad.

 Friday lunchtime  ritual was to boil dirty overalls on the cabin gas ring in a bucket of washing soda. Before we left they would be rinsed and hung up in the cabin to dry. A clean set would go in the bag for Sunday. They very soon became pale blue with repeated boiling.

Edited December 26, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[royaloak]

Once you got to privatisation the uniform just got cheaper and cheaper and more mis-fitting than ever to the point that shirts were different sizes left and right.

[Nearholmer]

There are a large number of good, clear photos of LBSCR loco crews posing with their steeds, and in every one that I've seen they all wear a cap (can't tell if they are grease-tops), with well-polished large badge, waistcoat (drivers have large watch chains), what look like denim trousers, quite dark, and in cooler weather a typical (denim?) jacket, sometimes fastened at all buttons, often fastened in that old-fashioned way by the top button only, to allow access to watch and waistcoat pockets. About 50% are wearing collar and tie, usually both men, the rest no collar, but shirt buttoned right up ...... it looks as if the driver set the tone, because if he has collar and tie, so does the fireman. One or two pictures show drivers wearing what look like pea coats, and I wonder if they were issued for use in very cold weather, or whether these men are actually some sort of inspector. The men and their engines are as clean and neat as the job permits.

 

One thing that does come across is a sort of 'jack the lad' cockney pride among the London suburban drivers, some of whom seem fairly young (mid-thirties?) and have their cap sides turned-down and the peaks tight on the forehead - these guys have neat moustaches in what must have been The Style c1905. In contrast, there are some older guys with "full set" beard and moustaches, which might suggest either a naval background or continuing tribute to William Stroudley, who wore that style. Respect for Stroudley among drivers was immense - they actually marched in his honour when he died.

 

All-in-all, the impression of 'working class elite and proud of it' is very strong.

 

PS: Have you seen the absolutely superb "Sussex Motive Power Depots" website, run by a group of ASLEF guys? It has hundreds of photos of loco crew in everyday attire, from !870s to date.

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Nearholmer

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, royaloak said:

Once you got to privatisation the uniform just got cheaper and cheaper and more mis-fitting than ever to the point that shirts were different sizes left and right.

'One size,  fits nobody'

[royaloak]

7 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

'One size,  fits nobody'

Quasimodo would be fine, everyone else has no chance.

[Steamport Southport]

I worked for Royal Mail in a sorting office and trying to get them to actually give you a uniform was quite an ordeal. They kept trying to fob everyone off with Consignia ones.  

 

The only thing I ever got was a pair of DM boots and a baseball cap. Oh and an orange hi-viz jacket that was about five sizes too big....

 

 

 

Jason

[bradfordbuffer]

52 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Quasimodo would be fine, everyone else has no chance.

Uniform fits me!

 

 

 

The bells.....the bells

 

ESMERALDA! 

 

yours 

Quasi..

[Roddy Angus]

Thanks to everyone that has replied so far, but if anyone has any information on what drivers would have worn post dieselisation/electrification that would be appreciated.

 

Best wishes

Roddy

[petethemole]

Try this thread, which features many shots of loco crew and other railway staff in that era.

 

 

[Roddy Angus]

Thanks Pete.

 

Roddy

[burgundy]

On 26/12/2019 at 21:27, Nearholmer said:

There are a large number of good, clear photos of LBSCR loco crews posing with their steeds, and in every one that I've seen they all wear a cap (can't tell if they are grease-tops), with well-polished large badge, waistcoat (drivers have large watch chains), what look like denim trousers, quite dark, and in cooler weather a typical (denim?) jacket, sometimes fastened at all buttons, often fastened in that old-fashioned way by the top button only, to allow access to watch and waistcoat pockets. About 50% are wearing collar and tie, usually both men, the rest no collar, but shirt buttoned right up ...... it looks as if the driver set the tone, because if he has collar and tie, so does the fireman. One or two pictures show drivers wearing what look like pea coats, and I wonder if they were issued for use in very cold weather, or whether these men are actually some sort of inspector. The men and their engines are as clean and neat as the job permits.

 

 

 

 

 

Can you draw any conclusions from this collection as to whether there was a company "uniform" for footplate crew or whether men were wearing their own clothing? 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Nearholmer]

To me, the uniformity suggests company issue, or if not that then everyone buying from the same supplier.

 

The cap badge is 100% definitely company issue, famously depicting the locomotive Goldsmid, and I’d bet the cap is too.

[burgundy]

Nearholmer 

After looking through the available photos of Craven locos (therefore 10 years either side of about 1870) the "uniforms" seem to suggest quite wide variation. Just looking at the headgear, obviously everyone is wearing a hat. However the caps range from a very stiff peaked cap (in Germany, I think, known as a Heligolander), through peakless caps like a soft version of an RN cap, to something like a greasetop, but with the top at a rather rakish angle down to one side. 

It makes sense that people might be buying from the same supplier and tending towards the same kind of clothing because it was hardwearing and practical. But, even allowing for the human inclination to personalise a uniform item (remember school uniform?), it does not look like company issue standard clothing.

I wonder whether there was a cut off point at which the company agreed to provide suitable clothing as part of a wider negotiation?

Best wishes

Eric  

 

[Nearholmer]

Interesting. I was looking at late-Victorian and pre-WW1 photos, so thirty odd years on.

 

If anyone would have a handle on the history of pay and conditions, it would be the ASLEF team behind BrightonMotivePowerDepot ...... maybe worth asking them.

 

There’s a whole lot of interesting social history to be explored around the changing status of loco crew between the 1840s and 1900s, and this is probably part of it. My reading is that they began with very high status, some at least as highly-rewarded freelancers, which was gradually eroded to the point where they unionised In the 1890s to recover their position, or at least defend it. Whether that generalisation is true on the LBSCR I don’t know.