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Railway franchises in the coming year


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8 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Northern rail (the organisation)  is despised by many (including my children who travel to Uni in Liverpool / Lancaster). They don't forget last years weekend action / no trains etc for over 40 weeks etc.

 

I'm amazed at the RMT rulebook objective re capitalism above. We have just seen what the public think of such thoughts in the election. Needs action.

 

Split Northern into East / West with further control etc by the big cities (Leeds, Liverpool & Manchester). Services outside these conurbations to be run by them but funded by central government.

 

Train more staff. New recruits on new conditions (equal pay though).

 

That's just for starters.

 

We need a "Brexit" on our railways, and the bolshy unions need sorting.

 

Brit15

 

 

Why is it always "The Unions"? Nobody strikes for the fun of it, and anyone that says different is having you on. As has been said already on this forum, it takes two to tango.

 

I'm not sure about splitting East/West either; it sounds a great idea, but in the more southerly part of the franchise area, Liverpool/Manchester/the heavy woollen area of Yorkshire, etc., the routes have always run West to East, and each route was run as a homogenous whole. Putting an artificial border on the Pennines breaks that up. Wasn't that tried in the initial privatisation phase with Northern Spirit/North West Trains?

 

I'd agree that local public transport needs to be controlled more locally. If local authorities and/or other bodies were to take control of local public transport, that would imply (to me) transport funding being raised locally as well, rather than decisions and funding coming from Whitehall. How would the services which crossed major boundaries be managed? A co-ordinating committee? On the score of local control, I'm pretty certain that if they were given the powers and the funds, electrification could be extended, albeit in a piecemeal fashion, but e.g. Manchester Vic. to Stalybridge, for which the civil works were completed almost three years ago shouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility. Would most of the rest be infill electrification?

 

 

 

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I don’t believe, for a single moment, that any local authority anywhere has the necessary funds to involve themselves in running any sort of rail services, nor any part of the necessary abilities to attempt it. Nor do I believe that involving yet another layer of special interest bureaucracy, would be remotely useful. Least of all, one that has sustained a campaign of restricted services over most of a year, without bringing it to any sort of conclusion. 

 

We need some sort of overall strategic direction, including the national coordination of recruitment, training and retention of safety critical roles like drivers and operating staff generally. This should include an end to the current political nonsense; either it is safe to operate services DOO, or it isn’t (and my feeling is that safety considerations mean that it isn’t. Surely in the event of a breakdown or incident, the whole point is that the driver is responsible for the train, and the train staff are responsible for the passengers?) 

 

Same goes for services generally. Cross Country are a disgrace, and whoever is responsible for them needs giving a broom, and made to do something better suited to his abilities. I don’t know Northern, but they seem to be another example. 

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Lets wait and see what Boris & co do for all those up 'ere who voted for him does.

 

Electrify Manchester to Leeds etc for a start, ALL of it. Not rocket science. the Chinese built a brand new railway to Tibet in the Himalayas - pressurised trains, permafrost, mountains just a tad higher than the Pennines - they just got on with it  !!!

 

I'm sick of this dual mode scapegoat to save money and not electrify all / parts of busy main lines. Time is passing, diesel to be outlawed etc not too far away. Climate change will bring more & more problems. We will need all our railways (and more) in the coming years. Not everyone will be able to have / afford an electric car (with all their well known inherent infrastructure problems also).

 

Nationalise / Regionalise and electrify the lot (well, say 90% - bi modes OK for some lightly used lines). Make it so that unions cannot bring the country to a halt - I remember the 70's power cuts etc. We all do not want those days back.

 

The fare payers are getting restless

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/02/commuters-gather-at-bolton-station-in-protest-over-increased-rail-fares

 

Brit15

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Looking back at the history of the RMT they are one of the worst unions for strikes it seems that they want management to come up with ideas that can be peddled to members as bad anti social ideas.The  people in charge are more concerned with political mantra than looking after the members and they don't give a dam for passengers.I feel sorry for members who just want to get on with their job but are hassled by militants ,the country has had enough of these dinasours .

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46 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

I don’t believe, for a single moment, that any local authority anywhere has the necessary funds to involve themselves in running any sort of rail services, nor any part of the necessary abilities to attempt it. Nor do I believe that involving yet another layer of special interest bureaucracy, would be remotely useful. Least of all, one that has sustained a campaign of restricted services over most of a year, without bringing it to any sort of conclusion. 

 

We need some sort of overall strategic direction, including the national coordination of recruitment, training and retention of safety critical roles like drivers and operating staff generally. This should include an end to the current political nonsense; either it is safe to operate services DOO, or it isn’t (and my feeling is that safety considerations mean that it isn’t. Surely in the event of a breakdown or incident, the whole point is that the driver is responsible for the train, and the train staff are responsible for the passengers?) 

 

Same goes for services generally. Cross Country are a disgrace, and whoever is responsible for them needs giving a broom, and made to do something better suited to his abilities. I don’t know Northern, but they seem to be another example. 

As far as DOO for passenger trains is concerned there was a very clear set of conditions which had to met to allow its introduction agreed between BR and HMRI.  I don't know if those conditions still apply (but think they should as they were based on common sense for safe operation).  Thus the decision as to whether or not DOO(P) working is, or isn't, feasible on any train/any stretch of line is basically an operational safety issue and should therefore be 100% down to the people with the responsibility for such decisions and you are not fit to make such decisions unless you know and fully understand the detail of the route and trains involved.

 

I don't want to start of yet another argument about DOO but the facts are that it has, in Britain, a 100% 'safe' operational safety record stretching back over a quarter of a century which suggests to me that if it is applied in accordance with the appropriate conditions it is quite acceptable.   The technology of much of todays' railway - particularly those parts of it approved for DOO(P) - are totally different from the operational safety regime of 40 years ago and to be honest 'the railway' has to move forward in methodology where and when it can.  

 

Providing a member of on-train staff for other duties - which are, in many places, basically and largely those of a commercial nature is a completely different decision subject to different managerial (and not idiot non-competent Civil Service) criteria.  In many places the two areas (operational safety and commercial duties) will overlap as has long been the case (even if it might not happen in practice).    The best way for anyone to 'protect' their job is to do all of it and, when occasion offers, more to show how useful it is.   Various Drivers' depots survived because they took that attitude when closure was staring them in the face and teh same can be said for various other jobs on the railway but Guards are undoubtedly in a far better position than most to do exactly that, thing is they won't do it by going on strike (which might well have the opposite effect).

 

Incidentally as far as Cross Country goes they are in my experience of using their trains not infrequently one of the very best examples of 'Guards' (whatever they call them) doing exactly that.  They are also, again in my experience, an operator where you tend to see more on-train cleaners than is the case with some other operators. 

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I used Cross Country on various routes over a period of several months, about a year ago. They were abysmal - dirty, run-down rolling stock, short-formed sets, diversions announced after leaving stations, lack of information at stations (especially BNS), a general embarrassment. The journey I made during the storm showed them in a very poor light indeed, especially compared to GWR. 

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The issue of guards/conductors/whatever they are presently called, raises the question of the relationship between commercial, operational and safety functions.

 

If there is a Safety Case, or its railway equivalent, in place for DOO on any given route or service, all well and good. However that doesn’t address the employee relations side of things. This is where it becomes problematical. I don’t know railways professionally, but I do know the construction industry far too well, and the fragmented, competitive structure has bred an adversarial culture which is long last repair (and it was worse when the unions were involved, as anyone who remembers the inter-union “turf wars” at sites like Isle of Grain, will know). 

 

I rather suspect this is going to cause Boris Johnson more problems than he wishes to admit. A lot of voters will expect results, and won’t much care who loses out in Westminster as a consequence or side-effect. 

 

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1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

I don’t know Northern, but they seem to be another example. 

 

Northern are pretty poor at times though at other times trains arrive on time and all is well, in my experience.  Staff on trains (and most of the time at stations too but not always) have been great with giving help and advice when there's been cancellations such as alternative trains which my tickets can be used on or at least when the next train should arrive - sometimes they don't appear to have been told what is happening either.  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Caley 439 said:

 

Northern are pretty poor at times though at other times trains arrive on time and all is well, in my experience.  Staff on trains (and most of the time at stations too but not always) have been great with giving help and advice when there's been cancellations such as alternative trains which my tickets can be used on or at least when the next train should arrive - sometimes they don't appear to have been told what is happening either.  

 

 

 

I think that’s a general comment on a lot of services. Cross Country clearly don’t provide their staff with essential support, at times. The notion that they don’t need to provide information and support at their main hub (BNS) should not be entertained. 

 

British Railways could be pretty feeble on the customer service front, come to that. 

 

My worst experience in recent years, was a journey from Hartlepool to Doncaster which was re-routed for some railway related reason (possibly, having the temerity to attempt to travel on a Sunday?). It was absolutely chaotic, involved several changes of train, much dispute about validity of tickets  and at one point, the police were called. PC Plod advised the train staff to stop acting the goat, and get their mutinous charges on their way without further ado...

 

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4 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

I think that’s a general comment on a lot of services. Cross Country clearly don’t provide their staff with essential support, at times. The notion that they don’t need to provide information and support at their main hub (BNS) should not be entertained. 

 

British Railways could be pretty feeble on the customer service front, come to that. 

 

My worst experience in recent years, was a journey from Hartlepool to Doncaster which was re-routed for some railway related reason (possibly, having the temerity to attempt to travel on a Sunday?). It was absolutely chaotic, involved several changes of train, much dispute about validity of tickets  and at one point, the police were called. PC Plod advised the train staff to stop acting the goat, and get their mutinous charges on their way without further ado...

 

I have seen XC on train staff being very pro-active when it comes t dealing with passengers regarding connections and alternative journey arrangements so I wouldn't criticise them in the least in that respect (based on what I have seen done).  New Street is of course irrelevant as far as any train operator is concerned because it is managed and staffed by NR unless there are any specific train operator information desks there which might be staffed by that i operator (and not a member of NR staff in that operator's uniform).

 

However what I have seen at a number of stations, particularly with post privatisation employees (although some ex BR ones can be just as bad) is an abysmal knowledge of the railway network and alternative routes when there are major problems.  In many cases unless they can look it up on a computer - and then they need to ask the right questions - they are absolutely stuck and you might as well use your own handheld device or ask someone who appears to understand what is happening.  During one very serious interruption to the train service a few years back I finished up giving passengers directions and alternative routes initially assisting a member of station staff but then by people short-circuiting the process and asking me instead.  You need to be very careful if you do this because of potential ticket validity problems but very often you can give an instant answer where the staff seem totally bereft of ideas (e.g. take a 'bus from X to Y and claim the fare back).  It was not always good in BR days and to be honest at some places while it is a little better (at least the staff haven't gone into hiding) the lack of knowledge is a poor advert.

 

 

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4 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Split Northern into East / West with further control etc by the big cities (Leeds, Liverpool & Manchester). Services outside these conurbations to be run by them but funded by central government.

 

Oh goody, so instead of one organization being hampered with inadequate central government  funding you now want 3 or more organizations squabbling amongst themselves to split up the inadequate central government funding.  What could possibly go wrong?

 

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

This should include an end to the current political nonsense; either it is safe to operate services DOO, or it isn’t (and my feeling is that safety considerations mean that it isn’t. Surely in the event of a breakdown or incident, the whole point is that the driver is responsible for the train, and the train staff are responsible for the passengers?) 

 

In an serious emergency, what is one non-driver member of staff actually going to be able to do?

 

While there may be routes that additional staff may be helpful / necessary, I suspect the usefulness in general of that extra staff is overrated from a safety perspective.  As Stationmaster has noted, DOO trains have operated perfectly safe for a long time now.

 

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Same goes for services generally. Cross Country are a disgrace, and whoever is responsible for them needs giving a broom, and made to do something better suited to his abilities. I don’t know Northern, but they seem to be another example. 

 

This constant "change things because it's easier than fixing the underlying problem" is itself the problem.

 

Changing TOCs because there isn't funding for sufficient staff, or because infrastructure work (which is complicated) is causing issues, or because rolling stock is late being delivered, etc. doesn't solve the issue but actually makes things worse as the organizational chaos that results slows down or paralyzes the workforce.

 

3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Lets wait and see what Boris & co do for all those up 'ere who voted for him does.

 

Electrify Manchester to Leeds etc for a start, ALL of it. Not rocket science. the Chinese built a brand new railway to Tibet in the Himalayas - pressurised trains, permafrost, mountains just a tad higher than the Pennines - they just got on with it  !!!

 

The Chinese also have the advantage of an abundance of money to spend because we in the Western World are quite happy to keep giving it to them for cheaply made products.

 

Easy to "just got on with it" when the government doesn't have to worry where the money will come from, and is more interested in "nation building" than giving tax breaks to the rich and token tax cuts to voters.

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I have seen XC on train staff being very pro-active when it comes t dealing with passengers regarding connections and alternative journey arrangements so I wouldn't criticise them in the least in that respect (based on what I have seen done).  New Street is of course irrelevant as far as any train operator is concerned because it is managed and staffed by NR unless there are any specific train operator information desks there which might be staffed by that i operator (and not a member of NR staff in that operator's uniform).

 

However what I have seen at a number of stations, particularly with post privatisation employees (although some ex BR ones can be just as bad) is an abysmal knowledge of the railway network and alternative routes when there are major problems.  In many cases unless they can look it up on a computer - and then they need to ask the right questions - they are absolutely stuck and you might as well use your own handheld device or ask someone who appears to understand what is happening.  During one very serious interruption to the train service a few years back I finished up giving passengers directions and alternative routes initially assisting a member of station staff but then by people short-circuiting the process and asking me instead.  You need to be very careful if you do this because of potential ticket validity problems but very often you can give an instant answer where the staff seem totally bereft of ideas (e.g. take a 'bus from X to Y and claim the fare back).  It was not always good in BR days and to be honest at some places while it is a little better (at least the staff haven't gone into hiding) the lack of knowledge is a poor advert.

 

 

 

....Which is, I think, quite a good summary of why the travelling public are so fed up with the whole privatisation situation. The fare-paying public expect to buy a ticket, get on a train and travel. They expect to be informed about delays, to be able to get information at stations and on-Line, to be sent by whatever route is most expedient in the event of delays or operational problems, and they expect this within the price of the original ticket. They aren’t interested in the slightest, in anything else, least of all in the OpCo’s contractual arrangements or directors bonuses. 

 

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In my experience, at least in the Newcastle area, cancellations are the main problem on Northern—not punctuality. Seems to me that the number of trains timetabled has been increased too rapidly. A case in point is Newcastle–Carlisle where there are now two trains per hour rather than the previous one. I can't see the need for this—most of the time these trains have never been heavily loaded west of Hexham.  
Personally, I'd prefer a reliable hourly service on this route than an unreliable 2 tph one.

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7 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Make it so that unions cannot bring the country to a halt - I remember the 70's power cuts etc. We all do not want those days back.

 

 

They are already planning to do so - Boris is planning to make strike action on the railways illegal unless the Union ensures enough members turn up to work so the TOC can run a minimum service.

 

Nobody is sure what the thresholds etc will be yet but hypothetically the RMT could be told that only 40% of the workforce can be on strike at any time.

 

Naturally the RMT are planning to resist this 'outrage' - though short of taking illegal action and bankrupting themselves out of existence by being sued for damages as a result its a bit hard to see what 'resistance' can be mounted. https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-pledges-to-fight-tory-plan-to-ban171219/

Edited by phil-b259
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4 hours ago, APOLLO said:

So what do YOU suggest mvdle ?

 

Brit15

 

Actually he makes some good points.

 

Please show me a case where radically rearranging the top mangers  magically causes more fully trained drivers to pop out of nowhere or how it stops rats chewing on signal cables as two examples.

 

The problems at Northern are many - but most of them are 'inherited' ones and not really anything the current (or indeed any new management parachuted in can do anything about) - i.e. late train deliveries, Westminster mandarins proving the strike happy RMT over DOO,  NRs electrification programme in the NW running years late and reduced in scope by Whitehall, etc

 

Similarly at XC, the franchise is now run as a management contract because Westminster / Whitehall are incompetent at letting franchises on time. That means no decisions can be taken on new trains, or internal refurbishment because that sort of stuff is supposed to be done by whoever wins  the franchise.... when HM Government have made up their mind what they are going to do beyond fuzzy words / the bull***t bingo phrases in the Williams report.

 

ORDINARY folk are the people who work anti-social hours, sometimes in horrible weather to make the railway system exist regardless of what colour uniform they are wearing this week - and most of them are pretty fed up too!

 

If you want a well run TOC then the MOST IMPORTANT thing in making that happen is to have good staff morale. Its all quite simple, if staff are generally well disposed to their employer then they are more likely to do favours like more overtime if lots of staff come down poorly in winter for example. Equally if staff are happy, they will be nicer to passengers and pass on good vibes rather than negative ones.

 

Now, those that actually KNOW about train driving on here appreciate that it takes over a year to get a man off the street fully passed out to drive even the basic routes a TOC offers. That sort of stuff doesn't change because you have gone and triplicated the head office roles and bought in more paper pushers.

 

Yes we understand folk are fed up BUT at the same time people need to appreciate that the railways are not run by the directors of Northern, nor indeed the inhabitants of Whitehall. Northern have a recovery plan in place including training more drivers up etc. This WILL make a difference in the long run so we should not be putting such recovery programmes by mass reorganisations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by phil-b259
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Good post philb. I'm not trying to tear strips off rail workers - just senior management and above (government). 

 

My son travelled daily Wigan to Liverpool during electrification works, and had very few problems even with that work going on nightly. Daughter now does same journey and it can be a nightmare with short / cancelled trains and no engineering works now Lime St is done. Other daughter travels every other week Wigan to Lancaster. She uses Virgin trains London - Glasgow service (mostly). No problems bar some trains a few minutes late. We'll see how Avanti fares. She won't use (the cheaper) Northern trains (Man Airport - Barrow / Windermere) as they are very unreliable with many cancellations, thrown out at Preston etc.  This is my family's experiences with Northern Rail - Not Good and getting worse.

 

As to working anti social hours in all weathers TO SERVE THE CUSTOMER - been there done that for 30 odd years (Gas emergencies). We were never "fed up" as we had good management and terms of employment, even after privatisation back in 1986. 

 

Whatever, with Northern Rail, the Government & senior rail managers needs to get a grip, and quickly too. 

 

Brit15

 

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23 minutes ago, royaloak said:

How are you going to get that past the Unions, nice try though!

 

With understanding, common sense, decency, and respect on both sides. It worked for us in the Gas industry. We had very few problems implementing new technology and working practices. Both sides also need to be a great deal more customer focused, that aspect I do know about, it was my job.

 

Where there is a will there is a way.

 

Brit15

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1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Go

 

Whatever, with Northern Rail, the Government & senior rail managers needs to get a grip, and quickly too. 

 

Brit15

 

 

How exactly should they 'get a grip'? (and I mean this as a serious question, not a sarky repost)

 

Whats done is done - and no amount of managers 'getting a grip will change the fundamentals any sooner than Northern are doing presently.

 

From what we understand Northern are doing all they can to recover the situation and in reality there isn't any other way to fix things.

 

As has been noted train drivers cannot be simultaneously learning how to drive new traction and simultaneously be driving a passenger service elsewhere. If you don't train up the drivers you have stock sitting in siding unused while other trains get sent to other operators or the continued use of more Pacers for longer.

 

Northern want to get their new fleets in service ASAP so that means pulling more drivers off regular work to undergo traction training.

 

Having more drivers overall would help - but again we have noted that the 'lead time' from recruitment to passing out is long and those already recruited are some way off being able to make a difference. Northern HAVE in fact been investing quite heavily in this for the past 6 months and therefore in 6 months or so the situation will be much better - but that has NOTHING to do with who the top managers are or who runs the TOC its just how new driver recruitment works.

 

As for staff morale, that requires trust between workers and management. Unfortunately that trust was shot to pieces thanks to a senior Whitehall mandarin who wished to 'Break the Unions' - and you cannot do that without first dividing the along 'us and them' mindsets.

 

Yes a new management team can start the process of rebuilding trust (and thus morale) but once again we are talking months not weeks here. To use an analogy lets imagine that your daughter has a partner who you do not like or trust - but she then dumps them for someone new. When you meet the new person, even if you like them are you going to trust them from the word go? of course not - there needs to be time for you to make sure that this new person is genuine and that they are not trying to string you along because it suits them.

 

Yes I entirely agree that the current mess at Northern was entirely avoidable - BUT that would have required several people / organisations to have done things differently, starting with the inhabitants of Whitehall and a certain Mr Wilkinson.....

 

Edited by phil-b259
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Re the previous post, an important point has just been sort-of raised. The breakdown of good will and trust, in various directions and at various levels, is not repairable. The electorate would watch with equanimity as any, or all of those responsible for the situation were dismissed from their posts. The contract is being run as a management contract, between two parties which are not properly set up to do this. Those responsible in Whitehall seek to retain their positions, fully aware that no one else sees this as a priority, and quite a few would prefer to see them gone. I don’t suppose that any of those involved on the contractors side, regard this as a feather in their caps. 

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8 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

With understanding, common sense, decency, and respect on both sides. It worked for us in the Gas industry. We had very few problems implementing new technology and working practices. Both sides also need to be a great deal more customer focused, that aspect I do know about, it was my job.

 

Where there is a will there is a way.

 

Brit15

 

The important point is for this to work is you need Unions that see management as a partner - not an ideological dragon that must be slayed.

 

I have made reference before to the fact that the RMT under the late Bob Crow (and subsiquently Mick Cash) have been very disparaging with those Trade Unions seen as 'too close' to management, or who 'cave in' to management demands or who 'betray the working classes' by not fighting every single proposal management put forward.

 

Bob Crow was a staunch Millwall FC supporter, and that clubs terrace chant of "No one likes us, we don't care" is perhaps also very applicable to the RMT.

 

Compare this with ASLEF who although still ostensibly opposing the concept of railway privatisation have in fact shown themselves of being surprisingly reasonable when it comes to negotiations with TOCs - which has bought benefits to both parties.

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31 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Re the previous post, an important point has just been sort-of raised. The breakdown of good will and trust, in various directions and at various levels, is not repairable. The electorate would watch with equanimity as any, or all of those responsible for the situation were dismissed from their posts. The contract is being run as a management contract, between two parties which are not properly set up to do this. Those responsible in Whitehall seek to retain their positions, fully aware that no one else sees this as a priority, and quite a few would prefer to see them gone. I don’t suppose that any of those involved on the contractors side, regard this as a feather in their caps. 

 

I was thinking more about the front line.

 

Drivers, roster clerks, fitters, traincrew supervisors are specialist roles and they are the ones who deliver the service to passengers - not people in suits round conference tables (be it contractors or in civil servants in Whitehall)

 

As such the rebuilding of trust within Northern is a necessity - and given TIME as well as a decent set of Managers things will eventually improve. It will probably take a decade or so to get things back to where they were though before the Government engineered breakdown in industrial relations took hold.

Edited by phil-b259
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Ahh Millwall V Wigan Athletic - A game to avoid !!!!!

 

Yes, Drivers needed will take time to train so no quick solutions there. But what about short trains as mentioned in the Guardian article ? Are the Pacers being removed too quickly ?  Correct length trains (as diagrammed) it seems would help solve a lot of Northern's current problems. What's the script regarding this ?

 

Brit15

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