RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted December 30, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2019 12 hours ago, gordon s said: Compared to the others, this is rushing along.....but it is through pointwork... Just needs steam coming out of the cylinders that ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted December 30, 2019 Author Share Posted December 30, 2019 It is a beaut and nicely weathered / fatigued. I'll see if I can continue my idea, tomorrow - it was looking OK, I just got too cold!! Al. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Many years ago I built a Wills J69, with 60:1 gears and an open frame motor (not sure which, but I do still have it). I took it to work to show my workmate, along with a circle of Hornby track from a Thomas trainset and my home built controller. We laid the track along the top of a cupboard, in an s-shaped end-to-end formation, and used crocodile clips to attach the controller to the track. Allowing for the croc clips using a minimum amount of track, that loco crawled the length of that track, without hesitation, in exactly 60 minutes give-or-take a couple of seconds. Stewart 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2020 I'm guessing Romford motor and wheels. I had a Westward 64xx which could have probably managed 45 or 50 minutes on your S track, with 40:1 Romford gears and a Terrier motor, quantum better than any RTR from those days! The mech eventually wore out and was replaced with a Bachmann loco, better detailed but never quite as good a runner! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2020 As a slight aside, there are some geared open frame motors on 'Bay at the moment,with what appears to be a very fine geartrain. Very, very early days yet, but they appear able to accommodate a Markits-style gear housing. The gears are quite low, at around 300 RPM. I've bought a couple to see what's what. Somewhere within the spares box, I have an Escap motor with a 200-1 planetary gear train. I have thought about putting a 60-1 gear set on a locomotive giving a ratio of approximately 1200-.1 That should get some skin off the rice pudding! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul 27 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) On 30/12/2019 at 10:49, atom3624 said: I only use a HM2000 - haven't 'gone DCC' yet nor have I a Gaugemaster ... Must admit to all, being a 'scientist' I started an experiment this morning, filming alongside a 1m ruler, but I was getting 'occasional temporary stalls' as were visible on 'adb's video, so I didn't see any advantage, so I aborted before I froze - 1.5'C outside and not much warmer inside the garage!! Might try again later! Al. Might have to try one of these, to replace my feedback ones also use DC. I presume it uses some form of feedback do you get any buzz noise from the motors , Edited January 2, 2020 by paul 27 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted January 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 2, 2020 13 hours ago, tomparryharry said: Somewhere within the spares box, I have an Escap motor with a 200-1 planetary gear train. I have thought about putting a 60-1 gear set on a locomotive giving a ratio of approximately 1200-.1 That should get some skin off the rice pudding! Sounds like the rice pudding skin will set faster...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2020 19 minutes ago, boxbrownie said: Sounds like the rice pudding skin will set faster...... Yep, entirely possible! I still have a Nu-cast 42xx kit about the place, and If I remember the completed thing weighs a ton. The yardstick for one of these is 60 10-ton wagons, so I'm under no illusion about what's required. The motors are on order, so let's see. If it does work out, I'll stock up for a few more. Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbox321 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 I've not done alot of experimenting. But I recall having a Hornby Class 08 (Modern Version), on a Gaugemaster Feedback (probably not recommended nowadays), and that moved really slowly, and didn't judder either. Think it were about 8-10 seconds sleeper to sleeper! Regards, C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classsix T Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 On 30/12/2019 at 11:20, Enterprisingwestern said: Personally, I prefer more realistic running. Mike. Slow and steady wins the race! C6T. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul 27 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) On 02/01/2020 at 22:37, dogbox321 said: I've not done alot of experimenting. But I recall having a Hornby Class 08 (Modern Version), on a Gaugemaster Feedback (probably not recommended nowadays), and that moved really slowly, and didn't judder either. Think it were about 8-10 seconds sleeper to sleeper! Regards, C. Yes certainly agree, still have these wanting to replace mine because of the motor noise issue, would not be an issue if you just run diesels they sound ok but steam is a different story, I am talking about slow running. Edited January 6, 2020 by paul 27 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Hornby’s 08 (modern version) has outside cranks and coupling rods, so apart from the difficulty caused by the need for daylight under the boiler, it faces the same problems as a steam loco. It’s a far cry from a big diesel with a central motor and twin flywheels. I’ve put Hatton’s decoders in Bachmann 08s and found them very smooth at low speed. The most extraordinary slow running I have ever come across was the original Dapol J94. I could see no movement at all when I cracked open the controller, so I stuck an ordinary pin vertically into the baseboard and touching a buffer. I wandered off for, I suppose, about 20 minutes and when I returned, the pin had been pushed over to about 30°. I’ve never come across anything to match it but, of course, nothing needs to be as slow as that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted January 16, 2020 Author Share Posted January 16, 2020 Just to add to the original 'slow running' thread. The TTS CotN is renowned for a few corners cut here and there; most notably the poorer quality motor cf the general impression of it being a higher grade Hornby locomotive. Many YT videos will show 'stock' locomotives have a problem pulling away initially. One of the first things I did upon receipt was to change the motor to a 5-pole. Initially I received what was supposed to be a X9108 King skew wound 5-pole, except it just didn't perform as I know the top spec Kings can. Smooth it is / was, but top end was as anaemic as the stock CotN 3-pole ... so I went 'browsing'. I noticed the 5-pole I'd been sent had a black can, but the brush /commutator end cap was mid-grey, not dark-grey/black as the best-performing 5-poles seem to be. There's no mention that X6199 should fit, but it looked right, and sure enough - as you see it is. Top end is way better as well - win, win as they say!! Al. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 17, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) On 07/01/2020 at 11:05, No Decorum said: I’ve never come across anything to match it but, of course, nothing needs to be as slow as that. In an ideal world, everything needs to be as slow as that. It means that smooth starting and stopping of a very high degree of realism can be achieved. Real steam and diesel-electric locos can be started completely smoothly with careful driving, and very high standards can be attained with electrics and diesel hydraulics, but a bit of a jerk is inevitable with mechanical transmissions and automatic clutches. I've seen a real 08 at Cardiff Tidal Sidings hauling a 3.000 ton drag of bogie bolsters loaded with steel rods from the Stonefield Jc direction, 3 trains' worth of them, taking an hour to complete 200 yards before the drag was split, a remarkable performance on full power. What sort of amps the traction motors were drawing is probably best not gone into too closely, but the little engine moved the drag well enough, albeit very slowly! Edited January 17, 2020 by The Johnster 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 7 hours ago, The Johnster said: In an ideal world, everything needs to be as slow as that. It means that smooth starting and stopping of a very high degree of realism can be achieved. Real steam and diesel-electric locos can be started completely smoothly with careful driving, and very high standards can be attained with electrics and diesel hydraulics, but a bit of a jerk is inevitable with mechanical transmissions and automatic clutches. I've seen a real 08 at Cardiff Tidal Sidings hauling a 3.000 ton drag of bogie bolsters loaded with steel rods from the Stonefield Jc direction, 3 trains' worth of them, taking an hour to complete 200 yards before the drag was split, a remarkable performance on full power. What sort of amps the traction motors were drawing is probably best not gone into too closely, but the little engine moved the drag well enough, albeit very slowly! I sort of agree. The 08 anecdote is fascinating but I meant that there is no need of a locomotive to be able to move a scale three inches or less in twenty minutes. It is relatively simple to design a model that will charge around a layout at speed but much more difficult to design and create one which runs smoothly at low speed. However detailed a model, the illusion of reality in miniature is ruined by a train setting off like a sports car and stopping dead in its tracks. With the obvious exception of a steam locomotive slipping, all trains should “flow” gently into motion. It is one of the advantages of train travel. Tea will not be spilt and wine glasses not toppled over; it is lovely to watch from outside and to experience from inside. How many of us (the unfortunate commuter excepted) watch the platform and announce, “We’re off?” Even A4s, Deltics, HSTs and 800s, however fast they go, start almost imperceptibly. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 Totally agreed, with the above comments. That 08 with 3k tons - very impressive. For modelling it only needs to be able to start off a little slowly / smoothly for a few inches, then start speeding up. The P2 was just to show how much better it is with a decent motor in it. Al. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted January 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, atom3624 said: Totally agreed, with the above comments. That 08 with 3k tons - very impressive. For modelling it only needs to be able to start off a little slowly / smoothly for a few inches, then start speeding up. The P2 was just to show how much better it is with a decent motor in it. Al. Were you shaving at the same time? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 Come on, it's not that bad!! Family's out this evening, so may have a static-placed shoot and present - may even run the Hattons' 66 which kicked this off to start with ... !! In reference to the earlier posting of the 8F, I tried with mine, and it was totally as expected - very smooth. Al. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted January 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2020 No seriously it is, if one of my Locos was making a noise like that I’d be seriously worried something was going wrong, nowadays DC motors should be silent using modern drivers (controllers). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 17, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2020 The old motors were pretty quiet, as you can prove by running an X04 out of the chassis; a bit of a whirr as the commutator spun around and slight whine from the bearings and that's it. An X04 is wonderful little thing, beautifully engineered and easily the highest quality part of any Triang loco... The noise comes from the transmission, worm and cog, or the 1980s spur drives with pancake motors. Hornby Dublo's ringfields, again driving worm and cog but vertically to the rear driven axle and blocking the cabs, were not that loud even with the transmission. I have retired a Silurian era Airfix large prairie about 18 months ago when it's slide bars became beyond supergluing back together for the umpteenth time; this was on it's original motor and gearbox and all that had ever been replaced were the carbon brushes; it was on it's 3rd or 4th set. The loco seemed indestructible, and slow running improved over time so that it was as good as my Baccy panniers at the end of it's life. This beast, of which I had become rather fond, made an awful racket when it was running, not unlike a class 37, and the nylon cog gear must have been close to it's wear limit, but it had certainly earned it's keep over the years and didn't owe me anything by the time of it's demise. It will eventually be replaced by the new Hornby version, but probably not this year. If a modern loco is noisy, though, something is not right somewhere. Noise means that motion energy created by the revolving of the motor is being diverted somewhere other than to the driving wheels via the gears, and is the result of friction. Friction is the enemy of good slow running and smooth starts and stops; it's how brakes work! I'd recommend returning the loco and getting a replacement if it's under warranty, and if it's not, strip if down, clean out any lube and crud, and re-assemble it making sure everything is fitting and sitting correctly, then re-lube as sparingly as you can get away with at all the points indicated in the service sheet, which can be downloaded as a PDF if you don't have one. I use non-mineral machine oil applied with a hypodermic syringe. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 On 30/12/2019 at 18:51, Colin_McLeod said: But with a density of 19.1 g/cm3 it will add great weight to the model. No need for lights either because the whole loco will be glowing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 I always find with 'super slow' operation that there's a distant 'buzzing - whether it's a Dapol 68, Bachmann 25 or 47, Hornby 56, 60 or 'Kettle'. I thought you were referring to my wobbly holding of the camera!! The buzzing wasn't as loud on the steam locomotives - which at normal speeds are as mentioned, near-silent - as I've noticed with Bachmann 3-poles and most diesels - those which are all-wheel-driven with central motor with dogbones in particular. It's always preferred NEVER to run very slowly with R/C vehicles, which generally have high current draw, high-powered, higher revving motors, but strangely using the 'prepare for the fumes of doom' caution normally associated with R/C, I just don't get that impression with the higher torque (relatively), lower performance locomotive motors. That P2 motor is actually particularly quiet, and with rotations >1 Hz, it really is quiet - as are my Royal Scot, DoS and Lizzie. Al. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 I've just re-run the video with the 'over-sensitive' sound settings of the works laptop - I see / hear what you mean - it sounds like a visit to the local barber's!! It really was nowhere near that loud, as similarly, I'm not that much of a heavy breather!! Must be the 'phone being very sensitive and compensating for the quiet of the garage!! Al. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted January 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 hours ago, atom3624 said: I always find with 'super slow' operation that there's a distant 'buzzing - whether it's a Dapol 68, Bachmann 25 or 47, Hornby 56, 60 or 'Kettle'. I thought you were referring to my wobbly holding of the camera!! The buzzing wasn't as loud on the steam locomotives - which at normal speeds are as mentioned, near-silent - as I've noticed with Bachmann 3-poles and most diesels - those which are all-wheel-driven with central motor with dogbones in particular. It's always preferred NEVER to run very slowly with R/C vehicles, which generally have high current draw, high-powered, higher revving motors, but strangely using the 'prepare for the fumes of doom' caution normally associated with R/C, I just don't get that impression with the higher torque (relatively), lower performance locomotive motors. That P2 motor is actually particularly quiet, and with rotations >1 Hz, it really is quiet - as are my Royal Scot, DoS and Lizzie. Al. Haha....no sorry.....not a comment upon your camera skills, just the what sounded like reaction of the motor to a half wave or some PWM controller it doesn’t like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 I didn't feel any overheating transmitted, not sense any smells ... here's 4 minutes' worth with 'more steady cam' ... even slower I think!! That's my lot now, for the same reasons you mentioned - I think I can call it a day!! Here's Hattons' Patriot as well!! Al. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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