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Train Identification


St. Simon
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15 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Hi Simon,

I haven’t read all the posts (sorry!), but I thought I would float a ‘simple’ system if it meets the way you operate.

Are your cassettes dedicated to a train or do you swap trains around? If not dedicated, stop here!  Otherwise read on.

Could you include a D connector on the end of the cassette that makes up when the cassette is pushed up against the departure track?  If so, then just strap a code on the the cassette connector to identify the train. (9 way D = 8 bits plus common.)

Paul.

 

Hi Paul,

 

That sounds like a very SSI / TFM way of accomplishing it!

 

I'd rather not dedicate cassettes to trains as then I would have to have a lot of cassettes in total than I would do normally (circa 20 at each fiddle yard) where as I could probably get away with 20 in total).

 

Simon

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5 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi Paul,

 

That sounds like a very SSI / TFM way of accomplishing it!

 

I'd rather not dedicate cassettes to trains as then I would have to have a lot of cassettes in total than I would do normally (circa 20 at each fiddle yard) where as I could probably get away with 20 in total).

 

Simon

I guess there's also the risk of someone storing a train onto the "wrong" cassette and thereby confusing the system.  But as I suggested above, this system would also work if each cassette just had a unique identity and the system tracked the trains off the layout into the cassettes and then updated a register of which train was on which cassette.  

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8 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi Paul,

 

That sounds like a very SSI / TFM way of accomplishing it!

 

I'd rather not dedicate cassettes to trains as then I would have to have a lot of cassettes in total than I would do normally (circa 20 at each fiddle yard) where as I could probably get away with 20 in total).

 

Simon

 

The simple answer to that is you make the coded D connectors detachable. You then have lots of connectors as opposed to lots of cassettes which are far lighter and easier to deal with.

 

As you observe this sort of approach is extensively used on the real railways - At Three Bridges we have many GETS TDM systems and most of the cards can be swapped at will. Its only the processor cards which are unique - and even then thats down to the software chip installed on them rather than anything else.

 

 

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2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The simple answer to that is you make the coded D connectors detachable.

Then from an operational point of view they are no different from the ideas I proposed earlier for a card with a barcode that could be attached to a cassette or setting a DIP switch to a code. And soldering wires to 20 or 30 D connectors would be a real PITA.

 

...R

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19 hours ago, St. Simon said:

That sounds like a very SSI / TFM way of accomplishing it!

That is indeed where the idea came from!

Happy New Year too.

Paul.

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Hi Simon,

 

If you can accept manual input to select the train ID and you have a Wifi enabled Raspberry Pi and a smartphone then maybe you could set up a JMRI panel to be viewed via a web browser with sensor icons on the screen which you touch to select which train for the train info system.

 

If you have the above hardware then that might be the cheapest way to select the train and address your requirement of expandability.

If you don't have a Wifi Pi or a smartphone then a 7" HDMI touchscreen connected to the Pi might do (start at £24 on AliExpress).

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

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41 minutes ago, NIK said:

If you can accept manual input to select the train ID

Just like a TD fringe unit. Can’t get more prototypical than that.

:-)

Paul.

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40 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Just like a TD fringe unit. Can’t get more prototypical than that.

:-)

Paul.

Hi Paul,

 

I bow to your superior knowledge.

 

I have ideas for a long term project that uses Augmented Reality to overlay the DCC addresses of locos/multiple units on the screen of a smartphone pointed at a model railway layout.

image.png.14ca29384d8ff1334ac514bd939a9fe2.png

It could be extended so that once the train had been consisted a train menu came up on the screen and the train description selected by touch.

 

 

Happy New Year.

 

Nick

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Hi,

 

Having reviewed all the replies on here (some very interesting concepts, I do like idea of AR on the layout!), I think the best option is to use RFID Tags and 'condition' out multiple tags using a 'transmit' button.

 

I'll let you guys know how it all works out!

 

Regards,

 

Simon

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6 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Have you thought about using Railcom? That provides the unique ID for each loco and works extremely well :)

 


Railcom?

 

I haven’t heard about that, more information would be greatfully  received.

 

How might it be applied in JMRI?

 

Simon

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2 hours ago, St. Simon said:


Railcom?

 

I haven’t heard about that, more information would be greatfully  received.

 

How might it be applied in JMRI?

 

Simon

Railcom is part of the DCC specification. It was, (as also the DCC system itself) developed by Lenz.

JMRI supports it.

It is only an option and DCC equipment manufacturers don't have to include it.

When used with compatible systems each loco can report it's ID.

If a loco/train is placed in a occupancy detected block it will instantly show up with it's ID, no manual intervention is required to assign a particular train to a block, as would be the case without Railcom.

 

EDIT many decoder manufacturers now include it, if not you can add e.g.

https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/15105-RailCom-Transmitter-Module-5-pack/

However these decoders (as do many others) include as standard:

https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/digital-and-analogue-control/lenz-10231-02-standard-plus-locomotive-decoder-v2/

Edited by melmerby
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To expand on what Keith says most (all?) European decoder manufactures have Railcom available in the decoders but not the American manufactures. If you have adeocded without Railcom then you can get a 'piggy back' chip that will provide the Railcom.

 

There are several ways to read and use the Railcom ID using either an occupancy detector that will provide the ID over a bus to a computer or dedicated readers that display the ID on a LCD panel - or you can roll your own :)

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Mention is made of RFID. In my opinion having reviewed all the work done in MERG, is it’s not ready for “ prime time “ 

 

ive used Railcom , there are a couple of issues in that many dcc accessories don’t work correctly with it. 
 

the other issue is multiple Railcom encoders in one track section is only resolved for those locos receiving active dcc addressing 

 

the issue of combing IDs for multiple units , etc. Is not resolved with Railcom either and would have to be resolved in external software 

 

it is however abut the only system that’s mission capable 

Edited by Junctionmad
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On ‎31‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 13:10, Junctionmad said:

Mention is made of RFID. In my opinion having reviewed all the work done in MERG, is it’s not ready for “ prime time “ 

 

ive used Railcom , there are a couple of issues in that many dcc accessories don’t work correctly with it. 
 

the other issue is multiple Railcom encoders in one track section is only resolved for those locos receiving active dcc addressing 

 

the issue of combing IDs for multiple units , etc. Is not resolved with Railcom either and would have to be resolved in external software 

 

it is however abut the only system that’s mission capable 

 

Hi,

 

I've seen RFID used on a large complex exhibition layout for a few years for train identification (albeit for different purposes than I want) and it seems to work quite well.

 

RFID is used by the real railways for safety critical signalling functions, so I think it is more than suitable for model railway use, 

 

I'm satisfied that I can make it work, where as Railcom means I have to integrate the DCC with the signalling, something which I'm really not willing to do.

 

Simon

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36 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

I've seen RFID used on a large complex exhibition layout for a few years for train identification (albeit for different purposes than I want) and it seems to work quite well.

 

RFID is used by the real railways for safety critical signalling functions, so I think it is more than suitable for model railway use, 

 

I'm satisfied that I can make it work, where as Railcom means I have to integrate the DCC with the signalling, something which I'm really not willing to do.

 

Simon

Hi Simon,

 

If you go for RFID you might want to avoid the low cost 13.56MHz NFC RC522 based reader writer modules.

There are reports on the internet that most of the RC522 modules from China are now using cloned Integrated Circuits. These don't meet the RC522 datasheet and may not be suitable for model railway use.

 

If you go for 125kHz RFID I can supply some info that should improve the reliability.

 

Regards

 

Nick

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RFID on real railways has simply no comparison with rfid on a model railways , everything is different , from budgets , antennas , distance , space etc. But hey knock yourself out. We are all interested in seeing someone  crack the solution comprehensively 
 

It’s equivalent to saying Diesel engines would be good as OO traction because they work in full size railways. 
 

 

Quote

 


 

I'm satisfied that I can make it work, where as Railcom means I have to integrate the DCC with the signalling, something which I'm really not willing to do.

 
 

 


 

there always seems to be a lot of confusion around over Railcom 

 

Railcom uses a “ slot “ of time in the middle of the dcc signal to send back information 

 

other then that it has nothing to do with dcc traction control and the signalling system which can be controlled by any means ( layout busses , jmri , switches and buttons ) etc. 

Edited by Junctionmad
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2 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

RFID on real railways has simply no comparison with rfid on a model railways , everything is different , from budgets , antennas , distance , space etc. But hey knock yourself out.

IIRC St Simon works for the real railway.

 

...R

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On ‎01‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 17:51, Junctionmad said:

RFID on real railways has simply no comparison with rfid on a model railways , everything is different , from budgets , antennas , distance , space etc. But hey knock yourself out. We are all interested in seeing someone  crack the solution comprehensively 
 

It’s equivalent to saying Diesel engines would be good as OO traction because they work in full size railways.

 

Hi,

 

Sorry, what I meant by that comment was that if they can make it work for such a complex system as the real railways, we can make it work for a simple model railway, the concept of RFID is roughly the same.

 

On ‎01‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 17:51, Junctionmad said:

other then that it has nothing to do with dcc traction control and the signalling system which can be controlled by any means ( layout busses , jmri , switches and buttons ) etc. 

 

Yes, but I will still need a way of passing information between the DCC system and the signalling system in some manner and I'd rather completely separate them and make them completely independent from each other.

 

Simon

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7 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

Sorry, what I meant by that comment was that if they can make it work for such a complex system as the real railways, we can make it work for a simple model railway, the concept of RFID is roughly the same.

 

 

Yes, but I will still need a way of passing information between the DCC system and the signalling system in some manner and I'd rather completely separate them and make them completely independent from each other.

 

Simon

RFID is complicated in  model railways by two factors , (a) the need to be inexpensive and (b) the whole issue of space constraints. unfortunately the physics don’t scale down by 1:78 ! , it’s further complicated by the lack of dedicated tags and readers , we have to roll our own. 

 

For example constraining the reader to not detect adjacent trains on a OO track isn’t easy , equally , ensuring reliable read rates at speed , can be tricky. 

 

And you still have the issue of the “ back end systems “ that receive the train ID and logically associate the info with other parameters. 

 

As to your second point 

 

there is no connection per se, between railcom and dcc , the information from a railcom decoder arrives in exactly the same way as the rfid , ie a number , the back end is essentially the same from that point on. The system IS completely separate ( doc traction & railcom ) other then both use the same dcc ID 

 

The advantage of railcom is that there are off the shelf modules , ie Digijeiks etc. These convert the railcom data into loconet and this can be fed to jmri or used by other computers connected into the locomotive bus. 

 

The alternative, rfid , is almost complete roll your own  , from sourcing readers and tags to developing reader electronics and a method of getting the data to something ( via canbus , i2C or something similar ) 

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On 03/02/2020 at 15:01, Junctionmad said:

RFID is complicated in  model railways by two factors , (a) the need to be inexpensive and (b) the whole issue of space constraints. unfortunately the physics don’t scale down by 1:78 ! , it’s further complicated by the lack of dedicated tags and readers , we have to roll our own. 

 

a) MFRC522 - you get 5 for under $13.

b) You can buy RFID stickers that will fit on the underside of a loco, right down to sub-4mm diameter. Work out to be less than 20p each.

 

On 03/02/2020 at 15:01, Junctionmad said:

 

For example constraining the reader to not detect adjacent trains on a OO track isn’t easy , equally , ensuring reliable read rates at speed , can be tricky. 

 

This is rubbish, RFID signals cannot work through copper tape (the kind you use for RFID-proofing things), sometimes called faraday tape (google search TitanRF), its simple to constrain the reader to the track with it! :)

 

Reliable read rates are easy enough to achieve, you need to make sure the RC522 maintains maximum gain, here is some sample code, just throw it in loop() and execute it every 30-40 seconds or so, you can increase or decrease the gap depending on how your RFID system performs. It'll vary based on your environment and equipment being used.

 

    Serial.print("Health Check... ");
    Serial.print(mfrc522.PCD_GetAntennaGain());
    Serial.println("");
    if ((mfrc522.PCD_GetAntennaGain()) < mfrc522.RxGain_max) {
      mfrc522.PCD_SetAntennaGain(mfrc522.RxGain_max);
      Serial.print("Reset gain... ");
      Serial.print(mfrc522.PCD_GetAntennaGain());
      Serial.println("");
    }

To reliable read at high speed rates, you need to optimize the way you write and store data on the RFID stickers. The test loco that I use for the RFID system is a Hornby GWR HST (the expensive one not the railroad model), it has a rectangular RFID tag on the base of the dummy power car, each of the coaches (its configured in GWR's 'castle' formation) and the powered power car has a special RFID tag for application on metal (costs about 50p). At full speed, I can read all the RFID tags. The trick is to store the data you need in the first usable sector and one of the last sectors, I typically use the first sector and sector 14. You most likely don't need all 1K for pulling identification information, you probably only new a block or two. If you duplicate the same data on the first and a latter sector, then program the microcontroller to pull just those sectors, you can then verify the data is correct by comparing the two. 

 

If you don't want to write your own code, my code will be in the 1.1.0 release of the oorail-system, which will be released on Tuesday March 3rd 2020. You can find it at https://github.com/oorail/oorail-system just check back on the 3rd. It will be in the modules/ directory.

 

On 03/02/2020 at 15:01, Junctionmad said:

And you still have the issue of the “ back end systems “ that receive the train ID and logically associate the info with other parameters. 

 

Oddly enough that digital dc system you were ripping on for not offering any other functionality actually does this! :-D

 

 

On 03/02/2020 at 15:01, Junctionmad said:

The alternative, rfid , is almost complete roll your own  , from sourcing readers and tags to developing reader electronics and a method of getting the data to something ( via canbus , i2C or something similar ) 

 

And now there is an open source project that provides this for him. What was that about looking for a problem to solve? :)

 

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1 hour ago, oorail said:

 

a) MFRC522 - you get 5 for under $13.

b) You can buy RFID stickers that will fit on the underside of a loco, right down to sub-4mm diameter. Work out to be less than 20p each.

 

 

This is rubbish, RFID signals cannot work through copper tape (the kind you use for RFID-proofing things), sometimes called faraday tape (google search TitanRF), its simple to constrain the reader to the track with it! :)

 

Reliable read rates are easy enough to achieve, you need to make sure the RC522 maintains maximum gain, here is some sample code, just throw it in loop() and execute it every 30-40 seconds or so, you can increase or decrease the gap depending on how your RFID system performs. It'll vary based on your environment and equipment being used.

 


    Serial.print("Health Check... ");
    Serial.print(mfrc522.PCD_GetAntennaGain());
    Serial.println("");
    if ((mfrc522.PCD_GetAntennaGain()) < mfrc522.RxGain_max) {
      mfrc522.PCD_SetAntennaGain(mfrc522.RxGain_max);
      Serial.print("Reset gain... ");
      Serial.print(mfrc522.PCD_GetAntennaGain());
      Serial.println("");
    }

To reliable read at high speed rates, you need to optimize the way you write and store data on the RFID stickers. The test loco that I use for the RFID system is a Hornby GWR HST (the expensive one not the railroad model), it has a rectangular RFID tag on the base of the dummy power car, each of the coaches (its configured in GWR's 'castle' formation) and the powered power car has a special RFID tag for application on metal (costs about 50p). At full speed, I can read all the RFID tags. The trick is to store the data you need in the first usable sector and one of the last sectors, I typically use the first sector and sector 14. You most likely don't need all 1K for pulling identification information, you probably only new a block or two. If you duplicate the same data on the first and a latter sector, then program the microcontroller to pull just those sectors, you can then verify the data is correct by comparing the two. 

 

If you don't want to write your own code, my code will be in the 1.1.0 release of the oorail-system, which will be released on Tuesday March 3rd 2020. You can find it at https://github.com/oorail/oorail-system just check back on the 3rd. It will be in the modules/ directory.

 

 

Oddly enough that digital dc system you were ripping on for not offering any other functionality actually does this! :-D

 

 

 

And now there is an open source project that provides this for him. What was that about looking for a problem to solve? :)

 

 

This OP's project is DCC I believe.

 

Andy

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On ‎03‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 20:01, Junctionmad said:

there is no connection per se, between railcom and dcc , the information from a railcom decoder arrives in exactly the same way as the rfid , ie a number , the back end is essentially the same from that point on. The system IS completely separate ( doc traction & railcom ) other then both use the same dcc ID 

 

The advantage of railcom is that there are off the shelf modules , ie Digijeiks etc. These convert the railcom data into loconet and this can be fed to jmri or used by other computers connected into the locomotive bus. 

 

Hi,

 

But Railcom still uses the same physical feed wires according to your last statement (my bold), I want to physically separate the two systems as well as separate them in software / data.

 

On ‎11‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 16:56, Andy Reichert said:

 

This OP's project is DCC I believe.

 

Andy

 

Yes, Digitrax's for the DCC Traction.

 

Simon

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