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La Belle Sauvage (once again, Holborn Viaduct)


Lacathedrale
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Just been catching up with the new thread. Good to see so much progress already. This is going to be special!

 

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The unit is/would be scenically isolated from the station board as its own cameo, with a scene similar to this:

image.png.5496303d7b513a8e3b1dc97b1c41ff9e.png

 

I came across another photo of this scene on the Getty site - note SECR horsedrawn carriage: 

 

gettyimages-1129817141-2048x2048.jpg.2fbe24388ab65d2a14520ac940aa7008.jpg

 

Ludgate Hill, London 1904. Getty images, embedding permitted. 

 

Edited by Mikkel
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Dated before the Thameslink work:

New Bridge St Blackfriars

 

This scene is almost completely changed, other than the rightmost building (apparently this was the bridge featured in Oliver!)

 

image.png.89b1b736b59d12cedbc9fe32c9c4d607.png

 

I actually did a walking tour around this area at the weekend and it was surprising how much of 'old London' lives on behind these glittering facades in the city...

 

I didn't notice that horse drawn carriage, @Mikkel - you do like a horse-drawn carriage or two, don't you ? :)

 

The water tank is long gone, but the combination tower/shed is still in situ in what looks like blackened red brick, a stark contrast to the white retaining walls. The building behind the railfans is also now a sodden black, compared to the shining white of the 1905 shot I posted earlier.

501180 & 501152, Holborn Viaduct

 

Access to the loco shed seems to not be compatible with the platform layout, which is true - the  outer platforms were extended to take EMUs. Very interestingly, even after the extension of the platforms due to the congested throat and site layout, Platforms 2 and 3 were blocked if 1 or 4 held an eight car train. The only parallel working that was possible was a departure from 1 or 4 with an arrival into 5 - if you designed a model railway with that kind of issue, you'd be chastised I'm sure! The BR solution was to demolish platform 3&4, leaving only 1, 5 and 6 - even then, apparently the EMUs had to kiss the buffers to not block the throat.

 

Lastly, the signal box for HV (pictured in the 80's still in SR colours, it seems!) was straddling the Metropolitan extension down to Moorgate and Farringdon, but I can imagine pivoting this 180 degrees to sit over the exit tracks of the layout instead:

 

Holborn Viaduct signal box in 1971

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lacathedrale
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The Ludgate views take me back. I was involved in the original scheme discussions with Rosehaugh-Stanhope, in 1985/6, to the extent of making a joint presentation with them to the City Fathers on the advantages of putting the railway underground. The City Fathers' obsession with enabling commanding views of St Paul's Cathedral, which would be enhanced by taking down the bridge, helped the case. My successors got on with the detailed work of making it all happen. 

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On 29/12/2019 at 20:21, Lacathedrale said:

 

 

BHTOgTo.jpg

Not exactly the most practical of vans...

Mine’s a roadster so even less practical, especially for moving a 4mm mixed gauge layout ‘Nampara’ (when it’s finished).

 

Regarding building your own track - go for it.  It’s easier than you think.  My current foray into track building involved a mixed gauge diamond crossing and the requirement to make  gauges too.  (Never done mixed gauge before - it’s an interesting experience)

 

Its all in the gauges, you’ll need a couple (or more ) of triangular or 3 point gauges, a pair of check gauges (to set the check rails- don’t use a combined roller/check gauge) and a flange way gauge (a strip of metal the thickness of the flange way (1mm in EM). With these almost any formation is possible.  Perhaps the biggest decision is whether to use copper clad sleepers and solder it together or ply/plastic sleeper with chairs glued to them (use the exactoscale ones as they are excellent quality if working in 4mm)

 

I’m assuming 4mm but if ‘n’ there are kits available that can be modified.  If 2mm get the excellent book on track by the 2mm society.  

 

Anyway, it’s worth having a crack at it.

 

drduncan

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Thank you for the encouragement  @drduncan - I've built track in 2mmFS, TT, EM, O-MF and S7 so I'm fairly comfortable with the idea - to be honest however it's mostly the wiring that worries me! I think an intermediate goal will be to use Peco Bullhead for the standard turnouts and double slip, and Peco Streamline for the crossing and threeway fitted as a temporary measure, then at a later date build and re-lay those two by hand and retro-fit after initial testing is complete.

 

So here's a question for the thread - the geometry in my XtrkCAD plan is put together roughly from the correct parts, and the physical equivalent has been derived from the actual templates - so there is a little variance. As such, I'm not transposing the plan identically onto the boards. I have extended the curve from the throat to the edge of the baseboard, and laid a steel rule on my original alignment. The modified version in the previous post (where I swap the pilot siding for a pilot shed) splits the difference by essentially moving the rule forward  a couple of inches to smooth out the corner.

 

Either way, here is today's progress - both boards structurally complete. There are far fewer cutouts on the platform board, since all the track is plain. I am planning on adding isolating sections onto the tips of each platform road (default: on) so in future I could convert the layout to DC operation without much fuss. That seems doubtful, given the modern locos and all the DCC chips I've got - but it'll be nice to build it in ahead of time

 

UUEIfzg.png

Platform board construction complete, reviewing lines of the viaduct front.

 

 

 

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And to reassure all it's not all just carpentry:

 

suIcNMp.png

SE&CR 751 hauling a dark lake birdcage set.

 

Idiosyncractic, but I don't much mind. A P-Class would be much more appropriate, this one (with the help of some Roxey Mouldings kits) will hopefully form part of the Greenwich Park 'sandwich' set:

 

XPnilAq.png

SE&CR 753 P-Class - the Chatham's wrong-footed attempt to copy the Brighton's Terrier.

 

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Very pretty.

 

I am very concerned for your P though. I stoved the roof in on my tinplate USA tank doing things like that ...... it came off the end, and fell onto a chair standing below, while I was using it to test a FY deck that I was building.

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Not to worry, I only pivoted the plank to get a shot - it's my window-sill and shooting into the light from a relatively dark office wouldn't have gone well. Now safely ensconced.

 

Left hand viaduct board is now carpentry-complete:

2LBRXH5.png

 

I used this opportunity to sketch out the platforms and platform roads, here's a helicopter view showing the skew approach - I want to reduce parallel lines as much as possible, but decided that the train-shed should probably be square-on to make what will already be my largest structural scratchbuild ever, slightly more achievable:

 

fexLMRI.png

 

This is a plan view of the end of the board. I'm pretty sure platform 1 should be right/north - but overall gives an idea of how I'm looking to break this section up- the concourse alignment was when I was thinking of a skew, but I think now I'll knock it back to a straight line. The train shed covers the whole area down to the horizontal lines, after which platform canopies continue, before petering out to the platform ends with signals, water towers and such - this should visually break the layout into thirds. The  water tank/pilot shed building against the backscene and little forward of the canopy ends - I resisted the urge to add more pointwork and complexity here:

 

2OeFPRn.png

 

I would really appreciate if anyone could point out any radical flaws - I'm going to let this sit for a few days before doing anything else.

 

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Best of luck, looking forward to seeing this layout progress! My only criticism is the track layout looks too reasonable, some of the formations in that time were ridiculous, Euston looked as if it had been blindly thrown together https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.5295&lon=-0.1372&layers=163&b=1  and the platforms from Ludgate Hill are a stones throw from Holborn Viaduct and Blackfriars https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.5132&lon=-0.1030&layers=163&b=1 

 

Best of Luck

 

Matthew

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That looks a really nice well balanced design and the shed/tank at the rear does add a building of real character.

 

I think my only query would be why, on the real thing, would the main lines diverge and then come back together again?

 

I wondered if perhaps a signal could be placed between the lines (between the double slip and the point) but then I like the ones on the platform ends.

 

If you have an underpass or roadway under there, perhaps you could use the gap for a central supporting girder or something like that.

 

Other than that, the home made pointwork option could become useful in reducing the gap if you prefer that option.

 

Then again, I am my own worst enemy at getting a plan to a good stage and then trying to improve it further when it really doesn't need it.

 

I am really looking forward to seeing your progress and I only wish I got on with layout projects as quickly as you have on this one! 

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I'm also looking forward to seeing how this develops. I know that William will be aware of these photos, but I thought I'd post them to give more ideas of what he's aiming for. As there are going to be occupation arched along the front of the station this is an old photo of Spa Road station that has appeared in various books and is on the Disused Stations website.

 

750780383_SpaRoad.jpg.109b9ce5f0d2a66e18b8049d31793d9d.jpg

 

Of course, these still exist on the approaches to London Bridge station.

 

The second photo is of Charing Cross in 1919. A great array of signals and wooden platforms.

 

Charing_Cross.jpg.fe82fe2d2ba8805dcc724577bd03faa2.jpg

 

Cheers,

 

Terry

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My work situation means that at the moment I'm only home 2-3 days per week, so this flurry of progress will no doubt ebb until the next break. Not only am I now waiting on the Peco double slip to be available (though I've thought about temporarily fitting a code 75 streamline slip in its stead as an interim measure) - but I won't be home to even recieve a delivery of the remaining trackwork until the weekend after next, let alone do anything. Hopefully the progress so far has shown it is not the lack of will which would see a slowdown in the coming month.

 

@t-b-g there is a void in the viaduct wall just where the tracks separate, so yes I think a girder or equivalent there would be sufficient justification. Ultimately it is required to bring the platform roads closer together and maintain plausible platform width. The helicopter view no doubt accentuates this compromise but I hope and assume that from normal viewing distances the compromise will be less egregious.

 

@TJ52 - loving that shot of Charing cross. I think I'm going to need to go with wooden platforms - given both Blackfriars and Charing Cross had them :) I really like the signal box gantry too - I think this would be an effective view break over the exit, although either way I'm going to need to put a large building on that side to balance the scene (given the large train shed on the left side). It's right on the tip of my tongue, why there are discs on the lower signals - any helpful reminders? (also, is that the ghost of the Oxo tower behind the leftmost braket?)

 

I wonder if it might be appropriate to have a road level entrance similar to Spa Road station along the front of the layout, while the main station and forecourt is off scene left? It would help ground the layout in space and time very easily.  I am DEFINITELY going to include the 'South Eastern Railway ARCHES xxxxxx SHOP FRONTS TO BE LET' sign adjacent what looks like an open-sided cafe of sorts. It would be lovely to reproduce this view at some point in future - I've got a Hattons Genesis 6w full brake on order, gosh knows why the train picture has two.

Edited by Lacathedrale
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I'm struggling a bit with those ringed-arm signals.

 

On railways that came to form part of the Southern they would usually be signals applying to a 'running' (not shunting) move between a line compliant with all the requirements relating to passenger trains, and a line not for use by passenger trains. They were typically used for moves to/from goods or ECS roads, and when cleared could not be passed by passenger trains. Ringed arms meant different things on some other railways.

 

In this case, looking at old maps to get some idea of the track layout, I think they cover what might be called "long distance shunts", to authorise light engines to go out to just clear of certain crossovers, some of the moves being "bang road", in order to cross back to an engine layby in the middle of the layout over Hungerford Bridge. They are probably ringed to indicate two things: that they can't be accepted by passenger trains; and, that they don't authorise a move all the way to the fixed stop signal in advance. BUT, I am not totally sure!

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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1 hour ago, TJ52 said:

I'm also looking forward to seeing how this develops. I know that William will be aware of these photos, but I thought I'd post them to give more ideas of what he's aiming for. As there are going to be occupation arched along the front of the station this is an old photo of Spa Road station that has appeared in various books and is on the Disused Stations website.

 

750780383_SpaRoad.jpg.109b9ce5f0d2a66e18b8049d31793d9d.jpg

 

Of course, these still exist on the approaches to London Bridge station.

 

The second photo is of Charing Cross in 1919. A great array of signals and wooden platforms.

 

Charing_Cross.jpg.fe82fe2d2ba8805dcc724577bd03faa2.jpg

 

Cheers,

 

Terry

 

That double bracket on top of a bracket is spectacular! No modeller would ever be daft enough to invent it.

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Nearholmer - I'm sure you are much more well-informed about signalling that I am. I've no doubt that the function of the ringed signals is much as you have suggested. I've had a quick look in Pryor and he refers to a SECR ring-armed signal as a shunting signal. Doesn't mean you are wrong though!

 

1391942485_Shuntimgsignal.jpg.acac14a0dc5aae038e96f400ac5bc63a.jpg

 

All the best,

 

Terry

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Yes, I noticed recently that he does that, and I think he's using the term wrongly, and the Westerham case is a good one to illustrate the point.

 

Assuming the driver to be in possession of the token, that signal authorised a goods train to start (so its a Starting signal) from the goods road, proceed into section, and chuff-off to the next station. That is not a shunt; it is a running move.
 

A shunting signal, on its own, can't give authority to enter section and run as far as the next station's home signal; it can only give authority to move within defined shunting limits.

 

Goods trains could start from yards not equipped with Starting signals, but they didn't do so under the authority of shunting signals ....... if there was an advanced starter, they drew forward to that, which then controlled entry to section, and if there wasn't, they had to be "flagged in" by the signalman.

 

(I do feel a bit wary sticking my neck out to argue with Mr Pryor, though, because I think he is/was a signalling engineer, which I'm not. Experts please comment.)

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9 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

(also, is that the ghost of the Oxo tower behind the leftmost bracket?)

 

The OXO Tower is about 10 years later than the photo, what we see is the outline of the Shot Tower at Walker's Lead Works between Waterloo Bridge & the Lion Brewery next to Hungerford Bridge.

 

Lambeth00020-1024x546.jpg

 

More photos: https://boroughphotos.org/lambeth/search-results/?fAreas&fThemes&fYear&fPeople&fCollection&fTypeOfImage&fRefNum&fSearcherTitle&fSearcherDesc=shot+tower

Strand Magazine article from 1891: https://archive.org/stream/TheStrandMagazineAnIllustratedMonthly/TheStrandMagazine1891bVol.IiJul-dec#page/n216/mode/1up

 

Pete.

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OK. While we are waiting for a signalling expert to advise on the ringed signals and William to get through his work schedules how about another photo? This time it's Victoria in 1910. Looks like there will be a need for several horse drawn (hansom?) cabs and just, maybe, a B type bus.

 

2032816034_Victoria1910.jpg.32baab8e1c50da01d763a3f801cd5ab5.jpg

 

Al the best,

 

Terry

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On 03/01/2020 at 08:27, Lacathedrale said:

 

 

I wonder if it might be appropriate to have a road level entrance similar to Spa Road station along the front of the layout, while the main station and forecourt is off scene left? It would help ground the layout in space and time very easily.  

Spa Road (and Hoxton on the modern Overground) inspired me to go for an arch entrance to the station - in N, albeit using HO arches. Lighting on the inside etc.... uses those cheap PP3 battery LED strips.

79361696_10157871765481613_8893489085046325248_o.jpg

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