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Posted (edited)

Thirty years before my era, but no wonder the sub-surface and tube lines were so successful (at least with patronage, if not fiscally)!

 

image.png.e6bfd0f640347caa948554ec2e211121.png

Engraving of Ludgate Hill by Gustav Dore published 1872

 

The following is a cropping of a photo from the latest issue of Backtrack Jan 2020 credit to the author's collection - which shows the water tank in situ above the engine shed, whose doors appear to have been removed when it was cut off from the running lines by the extension of  platform 1. 

 

The glazed brick building to the right of the engine shed, behind the the platform awning appears to be original but the buildings in-front created during the extension when the pilot road was filled in. I must admit, I prefer the feathered edges to the original canopy compared to this rather more austere cut-away version.

 

It does highlight just how narrow platform 1 would have been, if you imagine that platform 1 awning non existing and a running line behind - probably not much more than eight feet.  The leftmost 'platform' is actually a wooden gangway off the end of Platform 6, that led out from the station to the signal box  pictured earlier in this thread.

 

image.png.542146762dc9de6ec88b02a7de374390.png

Holborn viaduct some time after electrification and conversion to colour-light signals

 

While we're on the more theoretical than practical matters, as per @TJ52's prompting it may be time to start thinking about a name - I am very much open to ideas. Being themed so heavily around the Blackfriars/St. Pauls/Ludgate Hill/Holborn Viaduct it would seem as though a moniker or portmanteau may be appropriate. Roads in the Ludgate Hill/Holborn Viaduct area also provide rich pickings: 'St George's', 'Bishops Court',  and 'Fleet Lane' , as do the churches of  St Sepulchre's, St Bartholomew's, and St Martin's. Any suggestion gladly taken, tho I could imagine the layout still being named 'A Slice of Edwardian London' even if the station gets a name :)

 

All the best,

Edited by Lacathedrale
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“Shoe Lane”

Runs N/S through area and a well known road, places the layout ‘in’ that area for people who have a knowledge of that sector of the city. I think a suffix of Lane or Street would work well again placing the station in typical names for the area. There might be mileage in looking at pre war maps to see if there’s any corkers no longer extant.

 

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This looks like being a good pastime. I had thought of Southwark St. A couple of others might be Nelson Square or Mitre St. Of course, I'm looking at just south of the river and as William has pointed out there's loads of possibilities once you get towards Holborn and Smithfield.

 

I shall look forward to more suggestions - this one could run and run!

 

Terry

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Are we actually in The City, north of the river, or in the tangle just south of it in the Southwark/Bankside area?

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Good question. The title of the thread says south London which I take to be south of the river. However, we all know that the back story of a layout can change as it evolves. 

 

Terry

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Well, certainly the original idea was to site it somewhere off the LCDR city line south of the river, north of Borough Road. The SER built a curve (now used by Thameslink) to connect their mainline from Cannon Street and London Bridge onto the Chatham's city line.  The LCDR also proposed a spur at this point (and no further information appears to be forthcoming) - so my original theory was that this would lead to a station out of the river.

 

The more I think about it - the station canopy, the operational patterns, the use of a Ludgate Hill-like scene as a cameo leads me to think about citing it north of the river, if not as a direct depiction of then at least heavily influenced by and themed as a hybrid of Ludgate Hill and Holborn Viaduct. If not verbatim, maybe oriented eastward between the Old Bailey and  St Pauls? This would still support LSWR and MR terminating services, as well as a high level of parcels/newspaper traffic by proximity to General Post Office, and high profile trains from the city into the Kent Coast.

Paternoster Square
Warwick Square

St Martin's

Fleet Lane

 

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That's fair enough. I quite like Paternoster Square. I'll put forward Queen Victoria Street and then retire gracefully!

 

Terry

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Wardrobe Place, on the assumption that it lives in a spare room, in a place that might otherwise be occupied by a wardrobe.

 

Mornington Crescent!

 

Oh, no, sorry, that's already taken.

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Nearholmer are you taking advice from Mrs Trellis of North Wales by any chance.

 

Keith

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Posted (edited)

So, obviously no progress on the layout while I've been away for work - but my evenings spent  in a hotel in Leicester have not been idly wasted.

 

The first task was to figure out if I'm going to use the asymmetric 3-way and short crossing from Peco, or hand-lay my own. Realistically, hand-laying was the only choice. I have replicated the Peco 3-way below, and a 'standard turnout' above. In my specific case I can spare the extra three inches on the right, and the upper road can diverge at a fairly shallow angle, since it's set further back. This results in a 32" and 27" radius tandem, instead of a 23" and 17"(!) in the Peco (that said, I'm sure I could tweak the peco with curviform vees, etc. to lessen the effective minimum radius).

I know the tandem in the below screenshot needed cleaning up - I decided and deleted the 3-way before doing that, so this is the only picture I have of them both in one comparative diagram. It seems an obvious choice which to go for:

 

image.png.b6a4df3dd84de78882758a49a2f2d842.png

Peco 3-way (bottom) vs Tandem double-sided B6 (top)

 

Additionally, I went on a little bit of a spree on abe-books.co.uk and bought some more reference material for a few pounds each:

  • Locomotives of the South Eastern & Chatham Railway, D L Bradley
  • Wainwright and His Locomotives, K Marx (!)
  • South Eastern and Chatham Railway Album, P K Jones
  • Bradshaw's Guide: LCDR by S Jeffs
  •  Illustrated Guide to the South Eastern Railway 1866 by G Measom

 

Lastly, as something of a birthday treat, I've grabbed a 6-pin decoder for my Terrier, and what off the shelf pointwork I am going to use. I've got myself a curved turnout as described in this thread for the FY up to down headshunt - but may end up hand-laying this one regardless.

 

 

Edited by Lacathedrale
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Looking forward to this. 

 

Sounds the sort of place (and era!) that is calling out for a colonial war-type name; Atbara Square, or Sevastopol Road, something like that.

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G'day Folks

 

Balaclava Barracks (High Level)

 

manna

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On 05/01/2020 at 16:16, lezz01 said:

I would say the road surface is a cinder one, it was quite common back then.

Regards Lez.

Covered in horse muck no doubt

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My track orders arrived this morning so there are gratuitous shots of peco-on-wood included shortly, but still no hide nor hair of the C&L gauges for 00-SF that I ordered at the start of December.

 

 

6qP8OFr.png

Station throat laid roughly in place

 

The double slip is code 75 streamline and for illustration purposes only - its real location is on the fiddle yard. The below view highlighted to me that it might be neat to have at least partial viewing through the side of the station canopy onto the platforms - maybe either perspex or representative arches in silhouette for the near-side wall?

 

UKIfb0M.png

Simulated cameo view through to the station platforms

 

The FY boards need to be raised by 74mm so that the surface of the board is level with the surface of the viaduct. The throat and optional curve need to be cross compatible so it means the legwork needs to occur on the FY1 board.  My solution is as follows:

 

i5LZuwz.png

Mock-up  adapter plate to validate alignment and clearances

 

8ZeRWSI.png

Adapter plate glued and pinned together

 

In the latter picture, you can see how I have duplicated the TH approach of recessing the steel dowel surround in one layer of wood, while it's screwed to the next. In this particular shot they're just shown for effect, and the bolts adjacent are tightened just enough to hold the plate together while it dries. I'll probably end up screwing this to the FY board end, rather than making trouble for myself with something removable.

 

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My C&L 00-SF gauges arrived on Saturday, so I can shortly get started on laying out the pointwork. The next step is to lay the throat of the FY which should be fairly easy - and in the meantime I'm mulling over ideas for the corner piece - I've realised I need to ensure that one side only has a 6" projection in order to not block a window, so the view gets fairly narrowly focused quite quickly:

 

image.png.83d8bea99f33955db992a57365faf9be.png

 

This is just about the size of the visible section - there is about another foot of railway either side of this visible slice but due to the nature of the footprint (see below) it's hidden in the wings. For example, the crossover from the rear to front track is entirely hidden by the right-hand building, and I imagine we have our Ludgate Circus-style cameo in the middle.

 

image.png.7e7f4ca59d33f063592078c545128ce7.png

 

In the above section, the purple line represents where the scenic back-scene must end, in order to not block a window behind - and flat to the baseboard surface. As you can see from the plan view, it's almost like a shadow-box. Given the fairly limited opportunity to appreciate visuals in this location, I am considering how I might 'knock through ' the station throat board into this, removing the vertical support and unifying the scene - without compromising the layout when arranged with only the FY in-situ. Something to figure out on my trip back to leicester in a few days.

 

For now I think it's time to sort the FY out!

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This could turn out to be an act of genius!

 

Have you got room to curve the back-scene all the way round (different radii)?

 

I can imagine this becoming a stand-alone diorama, as well as part of a layout, in the Jack Nelson(?) style, to be shown alongside Dore’s drawing, and some photos.

 

A London hurly-burly soundscape of clattering hooves etc? 

Edited by Nearholmer
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It could - but I think as-is it will definitely be something I tackle after the rest of the layout is complete :)

 

Not the most exciting of jobs admittedly, but rail being laid in the FY:

yA59dJN.png

 

The two FY boards will be connected with offset strap hinges - lots of space at the throat end in evidence makes a good spot for a mug of tea and a programming track, I think!

Edited by Lacathedrale
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Following this with much interest.  Like Nearholmer I do like the way it's developing.

 

I often come up with grand schemes for how my  layouts could be joined together, and how new ones could fit the existing ones. The trouble is that it tends to become quite restrictive and reduces the design choices on each individual layout (because trackplans, structures, backscenes etc have to be aligned with other past and future layouts). So as you say, dealing with the layout as an individal project and then seeing what transpires later is probably a wise approach in practice.

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Hi William,

Really like your ideas with this, a fascinating take on a different era - and I do like that old bridge shot at Ludgate Circus. So much atmosphere - its pictures like that that make me thing the past was a better place in some respects! No mobile phones, no internet, steam tank engines ... I really must go wake up :)

 

Good luck with what you're doing.


Rich

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Yes, take away the dire poverty, the infant mortality rates, lack of rights for the working classes and women, the pollution and the spectre of the Great War in a couple of years and it was paradise! What did the Romans ever do for us?

 

I'm thoroughly enjoying this too.

 

Terry

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Thanks chaps, I'll do my best to try and live up to these high expectations :) @Mikkel you're quite right that trying to plan too much flexibility is a little fatiguing (although i would take umbrage with the idea that your layouts 'dont fit together' - it seems quite the opposite) - the bare faced fact is however, that I do need some kind of corner piece, so in the meantime I will have to rig SOMETHING up, even if it's just a curved plank of wood with setrack stuck to it with tape.  Missing this piece won't preclude the completion of the layout, or of running of it operationally, but would cause by neccesity it to be set up in the garage/on the patio/inside the livingroom rather than in a permanent location. On that note, I've ordered the second FY board from Tim H. and the hinges for it - and should be in a good position to finish the FY itself fairly soon.

 

@TJ52 @MarshLane I listened to a lecture-course on Victorian britain which did much to highlight the wonders of the era, but it also did highlight the meagre plight of so many. That said, my world is much like O.S.Nock quotes (paraphrased) in 'South East and Chatham Railway' - suspended as if on thin air above the chimney pots of <the City>', and a world of polished brass, steam oil and varnished teak.

 

 

 

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Careful now! You're starting to sound like a "SteamPunk"...

:jester:

Edited by Harlequin
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Well, not a huge amount done - spent most of the day sitting on my hands waiting for a delivery, finally able to get to the workshop and then I realise I'm out of insulated rail joiners and etched PCB sleepers:

 

3938pqR.png

 

Tracks extend off the board on the right because they'll extend onto the next FY baseboard, the join will be reinforced with aforementioned etched PCB sleepers and then the slice made in situ.

 

In my research I came across an only tangentially related photograph, that of the ex-SER/Croydon line's Bricklayer's Arms while it was still recognisable as the 1860's passenger terminus. Interestingly William Cubitt (of Euston fame) designed the portico.

XdATNbH.png

 

 

Does anyone think that the artist might have been exaggerating in this period print?

8KjoOVB.png

 

 

Edited by Lacathedrale
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Here's the templot plan for my 24 degree diamond and asymmetric three-way laid in place onto the plan:

 

697d44b5-9597-4fb7-b049-c0ccd8493ac7.jpeg.ac07307d5a9671fa6b91caee480e5d5d.jpeg

 

I gather that the timbers for the diamond will have to extend to support the parallel tracks either side, so as to avoid an interlacing nightmare?

 

Not sure whether to bring the whole viaduct into my workshop and lay all the track in one go, or to lay the crossing/turnout individually and slot them into place when complete - any ideas?

 

Edited by Lacathedrale
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When I either build or lay pointwork i do it on a section of the trackbed (including underlay if applicable). This allows me to work around and underneath it with the minimum of problems. Once track is laid and feeds wired, the track bed section is added to the layout ‘chassis’. If you can’t do that with your board construction, I’d take whatever route gives you the most accessibility to that set of track work.

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