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La Belle Sauvage (once again, Holborn Viaduct)


Lacathedrale
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No picture for this update, as it's very much more of the same, visually - but all dropper wires are now fitted. When folding it up, I realised the two baseboards weren't closing squarely, so had to re-fit the hinges - and now it's looking nice and square, I just need to establish a method for holding the boards in place. My gut feeling is a pair of carriage bolts should do it.

 

I've also renamed the topic to better reflect the more direct inspiration and theming of the layout.

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I can confirm that butanone does stick plastic chairs to limewood sleepers. I have done exactly the same having looked at the cost of model railway timber sleepers and then seen what is available in the model boat world.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thnaks @t-b-g :) good to know I'm barking up the right tree.

 

Invicta 94 (the SECR society magazine) has some wonderful details about passenger and freight traffic on the Widened Lines - LSWR traffic used the 'Main Line' (i.e. route into Holborn Viaduct) to runaround services from Richmond to Ludgate Hill, and there are pictures of the services with an Adams Radial Tank on there - so that's quite a cute little inclusion for a non-stopping 'colour' service on the Holborn Viaduct layout. There is a section dealing with freight, and notes that the Midland has a scheduled service of a tank loco and brake van which heads up the Widened Lines, reverses at Ludgate Hill into HV and then a subsequent goods train departure from Holborn Viaduct station itself.

 

There are also some lovely shots of the Ludgate Hill bridge, showing the early versions with very fine latticework and a pair of multi-storey signal gantries, and the later concrete encased version. Either way, it does give (real) justification for the complex and congested pointwork at the real Holborn Viaduct and Ludgate Hill - a minimum clearance was required over the road leading to St. Pauls, which mean that only plain track with no pointwork was permitted - so everything had to be squeezed in either side in order to maintain the alignment and original station locations.

 

Nothing has happened since the above, other than storing the layout boards while I reorganise the workshop. The Peco double-slip is still not available :(

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I had missed this so far. Congratulations on attempting this fascinating location.

 

You surprise me with that comment about LSWR trains running into Holborn Viaduct to reverse. That was the purpose of the siding just north of the low level station, used until quite recently. 

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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11 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I had missed this so far. Congratulations on attempting this fascinating location.

 

You surprise me with that comment about LSWR trains running into Holborn Viaduct to reverse. That was the purpose of the siding just north of the low level station, used until quite recently. 

Ah, you could be right, the context of the discussion was prior to the construction of HV but after the metropolitan extension was completed. It is/was my understanding there was no low level station, and that HV was just a pair of sidings  used by the LSWR trains.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Ah, you could be right, the context of the discussion was prior to the construction of HV but after the metropolitan extension was completed. It is/was my understanding there was no low level station, and that HV was just a pair of sidings  used by the LSWR trains.

 

 

 

There was a low level station at the bottom of the incline. Sometimes known as Holborn Viaduct Low Level but also as Snow Hill. A murky place, I don't think that many photographs exist.

 

London's Termini (first published in the 60s, Allen Jackson, Ian Allan) and a Middleton book would both be useful to you.

 

As to station name, HV is close to what was Newgate Prison, now Old Bailey.

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Sorry, I mean - at the time that the metropolitan extension there were no level platform/station (opened 1874) in the tunnel (opened 1866). It of course a complete fabrication that when Holborn Viaduct existed that the trains would have used it - but I didn't realise there was a dedicated extra siding for them to use in the tunnel. (Seems a bit strange they wouldn't use the runarounds in Ludgate Hill, I guess).

 

 

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I think, but don’t quote me on it, that at/about your 1905 date, the LSWR trains were ‘push-pull’, using suitably equipped Adam’s Radial tanks.

 

Logical, because the runround facility in the tunnel sidings was almost certainly a bit of a fag to use, and running round ‘up top’ would have been highly disruptive/obstructive.

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6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I think, but don’t quote me on it, that at/about your 1905 date, the LSWR trains were ‘push-pull’, using suitably equipped Adam’s Radial tanks.

 

Logical, because the runround facility in the tunnel sidings was almost certainly a bit of a fag to use, and running round ‘up top’ would have been highly disruptive/obstructive.

I know you say "don't quote me" but I have to keep things in context.

The Adams' Radials were not fitted with 'pull-push' equipment until, according to Bradley, 1913, when the first four were fitted with the wire and pulley control system, probably to replace the hopeless Drummond four wheeled tanks in the West Country. More were adapted in 1915/16 as part of the electrification scheme, for use in the London area, and the service from Claygate, where the third rail stopped, to Guildford. Bradley makes no mention of any service to Ludgate or Snow Hill.

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I will have to ferret back to find out where the idea that the service in question went PP came from ....... it was someone on RMWeb, citing a respectable source, and it really surprised me at the time.

 

The date wasn’t cited, so could easily be later than 1905, if it is correct at all.

 

i will hunt for the reference.

 

PS: I’ve remembered that it was Northroader who mentioned it, and I thought he cited Bradley ..... as I say, will attempt to check.

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Found it: Northroader citing Bradley, but the date is a lot later:

 

”What was left by SR days were on country branch line workings, but there is a reference to Nine Elms having some for a Wimbledon - Ludgate Hill push pull service, ....... “

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These would have been services via the Merton loop line, which ceased in 1929. The Middleton Press book Lines around Wimbledon has photos of such trains with an Adams Radial (1926), an M7 0-4-4 (1927) and an H 0-4-4 (1929) all in push-pull mode.

 

Far more relevant for the Edwardian period it also has a T1 0-4-4 in 1906 but not push-pull.

 

Terry

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Of course I should have added that there were other LSWR services from Richmond via the West London line.

 

And of course the Disused Stations site has an Edwardian Adams Radial at Ludgate Hill but impossible to say if in push-pull mode! 

 

Terry

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Working through the 1921 WTT for parcels and freight, there are some wonderfully anachronistic freight trains involving Holborn Viaduct:

  • At midnight, a train of cattle from the GER from Norwich via the GE Mainline, East London Railway, New Cross, to Hither Green and then back up to Holborn Viaduct - vans attached to the early morning newspaper trains as neccesary (expectation: 12 vans). Except vans for Westerham, which were sent to Cannon Street. And then to Charing Cross. And then attached to the first train to Westerham at around 9am the following morning.
  • Some shuttling of vans between HV and Blackfriars Goods was required in the early hours of the morning
  • Around 5am, the aforementioned Newspapers + Vans + potentially Cattle to both Ramsgate and Dover depart. Anything for the Crystal Palace branch is delayed until the 9am train in that direction.
  • No parcel workings are permitted during the morning, lunchtime, or evening rush.
  • At 2:45pm, the Holborn Pilot has to rush out and attach any vans bound for Cannon street onto the back of a GNR train that's come up the Metropolitan extension and is simmmering away over in Ludgate Hill. The return journey is at 3:45pm, and pulls all the way into Holborn Viaduct, for the Holborn pilot to add any extra vans onto the back - and then is piloted back out to Ludgate to resume its journey to points north.
  • At 4:45pm, an LNWR train arrives and is shunted and goes on to points north via Loughboro Junction and Battersea Bridge, the reverse happens at 10pm.
  • At 9pm, a transfer from Clapham Junction occurs for parcels and luggage for the GNR

 

Very stern words are used about the use of Fish Vans as parcels and luggage trucks - they must be immediately emptied and trans-shipped at Holborn Viaduct - as well as anything that's less than a full 30cwt van-load, or consists of multiple destinations in a single van.

 

Edited by Lacathedrale
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Digging through the working timetables is quite fun - the SECR Society has dozens. Having a chance to pore through the Passenger Timetable for 1903, the following tidbits are germane to the discussion here:

  • A shuttle service to Victoria operated all day
  • Trains to the East Kent route, Catford Loop,  and Bromley South alternated every hour, with occasional services to Crystal Palace HL, Kent House and Beckenham dotted around
  • Main line expresses to the continent and the coast departed and arrived throughout the day, as detailed previously they woud split at Herne Hill for division between HV and Victoria, so the trains would be much truncated on their arrival

Formation wise, some pretty standard (I imagine) rules:

  • There must be a brake end/van adjacent the engine, with firsts centremost in the train, then seconds and thirds
  • LNWR trains must have a brake at each end, their trains would be worked by LNWR locos throughout
  • LSWR through vehicles must be marshalled at the front of the train
  • Boat trains and expresses:
    • Should have no 4w coaches under any circumstance
    • Any vans marshalled as close to the engine as possible
  • Regular stopping services:
    • Should have any 4w stock marshalled behind or ahead of any bogie stock

Some rather strange emphasis on:

  • Passenger brakes should never be used on Grand Vitesse services
  • SER CCT vans cannot work over the Metropolitan extension
  • All spare brake vans should be worked up to Holborn Viaduct

It does not appear that any passenger services from the MR/LSWR/GNR/LNWR actually called at HV, the vast majority cutting straight through at Ludgate Hill. However, this may not factor in the shunting/piloting actioned by HV on those trains - after all, even after the SE&CR was formed there were draconian rules in place about which stations passengers could leave trains depending on which company their service originated from, on what was MEANT to be a single route.

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25 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

  • SER CCT vans cannot work over the Metropolitan extension

I would expect that to be due to possible clearance issues with those specific vehicles 

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@Lacathedrale Hi, excuse me for being very late to your party - fascinating stuff and an incisive dissection of the possibilities and reasons for your station - bravo.

 

A question if I may? Right at the beginning of your thread, you show a 3D mock-up of your proposed layout, did you use SketchUp by any chance? If so, I need to learn some more.

 

Cheers and good luck,

 

Philip

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58 minutes ago, Philou said:

@Lacathedrale Hi, excuse me for being very late to your party - fascinating stuff and an incisive dissection of the possibilities and reasons for your station - bravo.

 

A question if I may? Right at the beginning of your thread, you show a 3D mock-up of your proposed layout, did you use SketchUp by any chance? If so, I need to learn some more.

 

Cheers and good luck,

 

Philip

Rant deleted  Sketchup used to be great. Now the product range is a mess and it costs $299 per anum to even get it on your desktop! Shame.

 

 

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Well I do have SketchUp 2017, the non-pro version, as it's free-to-use (still). I don't know unfortunately if the free version is still available. I use it for doing very simple room designs - such as the setting out of the timberwork for my proposed railway room in the barn ( @Harlequin, yeah, still not there yet, Phil!). I was curious regarding the 3D design at the start of the thread and I can understand your annoyance at someone wanting to monetise on something that was essentially free (even Scarm has gone that way too).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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Some jottings on the LSWR services.  The LSWR bought into the London Extension which gave (us) running powers as far as Ludgate Hill.  We originally had two services to LH.  The first ran from Kingston via Wimbledon and Herne Hill.  The main line was quadrupled between Coombe & Malden and Wimbledon with the southern pair dedicated to the LH service.  When the main line was quadrupled, the LH service was cut back to Wimbledon.  The second service ran from Richmond via Addison Road and Factory Junction.  I think it was decimated by the growth of the tramway, cut back to Addison Road and/or Clapham Junction, although the LSWR 1911 WTT also has a train into Waterloo.

 

The Wimbledon - LH push pull service may have a short lived affair, using bogie block vehicles not included in the electric sets.

 

bill

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@bbishop thanks for the tidbit - as mentioned I'm happy to fill in the gaps where there is no evidence either way (such as the reverse working of the GNR and LNWR trains into HV for goods, rather than having them attached at LH) - it would be a time consuming and expensive diversion to build or buy an Adam radial tank and some bogie coaches just for them to peek out onto the layout to be immediately runaround and pulled back off!

 

Back to the mundane and material, progress on the station throat:

K7X5cpN.png

 

As you can see, we have finally dispensed with the Peco track planning printouts and got down to brass tacks - the templot printouts of the diamond and threeway are in-situ with the relevant limewood sleepers in place. I've used evostik for both the paper and the turnouts - my thoughts are that it will be slightly easier to remove if I mess anything up, and if not then ballasting will securely fix it all in place. I needed to cut back the endmost timbers of the peco bullhead pointwork. I know, I know - you're already saying to yourself 'William, equalised timbers were not used on the SECR" and to that I say - you're right and it's annoying me. It is yet to be seen if it annoys me enough to hand lay them.

 

Timbers over the diamond were cut in a jig:

MHTEA4A.png

 

So far, so good! Having laid neither a diamond or a threeway, I wonder if this is playing with fire a little bit to do both in situ - but I guess, nothing ventured - nothing gained.

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2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

"equalised timbers were not used on the SECR"

 

Hi William,

 

Are you sure? The choice of equalised or square-on timbering style is mostly determined by the site layout and traffic densities, not prototype company.

 

Don't be misled by a SECR drawing (if you have one) showing square-on timbering. Company standard pointwork drawings are "typical", for the actual timbering layout at any given location you need the specific design layout drawings for that site. In junctions and station throats having many slips and diamonds (which always have equalised timbering), most of the turnouts will be equalised too. On the other hand, use square-on timbering for running-line crossovers away from junctions, especially if in curved track.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

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Thanks @martin_wynne - a good point! I can ask your advice, would prototype practise be to extend the check/wing-rails of the threeway's left hand route into the check-rails and wing rails of that corner of the diamond?

 

I realise the previous show didn't really illustrate the timbers well, so here we go again. The peco points aren't fixed down at all - obviously I'm going to need to address that before anything else goes down:

image.png.39296e7ba15a00d540397daf8b96aca4.png

 

The standards are OO-SF :)

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