Prototype ratio of locos:coaches:wagons

[The Johnster]

I'm trying to get prototypical coaches; I'm doing fine with the locos, all Tondu shed in the period, and the regular coaching stock is doable with the aid of Comet kits.  My auto trailers are all prototypical numbers known to have worked on the Tondu branches.  Brake vans are all prototypical AFAIK as well  One has to be more restrained in the case of NPCCS, general merchandise, and minerals, as one can legitimately have over a million of these...

[Aire Head]

From my perspective you only need to be able to represent the traffic you are likely to see.

 

For example, you dont need an individual rake to represent every single coal train that would have moved through, 1 rake of rusty 16t minerals looks the same as the others so with 4 locos you can represent 4 different workings in just one direction.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

From my perspective you only need to be able to represent the traffic you are likely to see.

 

For example, you dont need an individual rake to represent every single coal train that would have moved through, 1 rake of rusty 16t minerals looks the same as the others so with 4 locos you can represent 4 different workings in just one direction.

 

One train of fulls, one of empties. Works best if you have a roundy-roundy!

[Aire Head]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One train of fulls, one of empties. Works best if you have a roundy-roundy!

Strangely this is exactly my plan 

 

1 8F, 2 4F and a Crab to give a 8 workings. Similar plan with Class H through workings which seems based on photo evidence to make up the majority of the freight passing through my desired area.

[DCB]

Its the number of wagon, coaches and locos visible in any one scene which matters more to me than actual numbers owned. 

The ratio may be numerically 3:1 for locos and carriages but along the South Devon coast on a summer Saturday afternoon in August 1960 it was nearer 9:1 Carriages to locos with no goods trains at all and probably a 20:1 ratio between Tender and Tank locos.

I do try to run a sort of day program on the layout, 6 am till 10pm.  The 8 hours from the departure of the Up sleeper to the arrival of the Down sleeper being quietly ignored.   That way the overnight Sleeper, Parcels, Newspapers spend most of their time in carriage sidings and I ignore the through freights which move through the night. However the long distance freight locos remain on shed on weekdays, a few freights run during daylight.  Like everything its a trade off, I buy coaches for about £3 each, Triang,/ Airfix/ Lima etc I paint the interiors, lower them, close couple them. some of you pay £40-£60 for a coach. 

Vast numbers of wagons lurked in marshalling yards which we don't model, so why worry as long as we have enough wagons for a train or two plus enough to fill our sidings.   Ringing the changes, half a dozen fitted wagons as a fitted head upgrades a train from slow to fast freight, while a few fitted in the middle screams Pick up freight.  Ratios probably aren't worth worrying about.  

[The Johnster]

On 02/01/2020 at 10:47, Compound2632 said:

One train of fulls, one of empties. Works best if you have a roundy-roundy!

Works pretty well on a BLT.  

[Steamport Southport]

So if I get the exact ratio correct, then buy another loco, do I need to buy extra coaches and wagons now the ratio is out?

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Works pretty well on a BLT.  

 

How do you manage that? What comes in loaded must go out empty (or vice-versa). Our club has had a couple of terminus layouts with a main and a branch line converging (or exchanging traffic) - they shared the same fiddle yard - full coal trains come in on the main and go of up the branch, empties come in on the branch and go out up the main, using a shared road in the fiddle yard.

 

21 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

So if I get the exact ratio correct, then buy another loco, do I need to buy extra coaches and wagons now the ratio is out?

 

So if I build another x wagons or y carriages, I have to fork out for another blasted engine?

[eastglosmog]

56 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

So if I get the exact ratio correct, then buy another loco, do I need to buy extra coaches and wagons now the ratio is out?

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Only if you are afraid of a visit from the Rivet Police!

[MR Chuffer]

FWIW, the L&YR Society provides an interesting set of figures if you're into pre-grouping goods trains.

 

Link here http://www.lyrs.org.uk/Wagons, as in:

 

"A Fleetwood to Blackpool goods train at Poulton in the early 20th century hauled by an 0-6-0ST converted by Aspinall from a Barton Wright tender engine. The train comprises: Dia 1 low goods, two Dia.3 covered goods, Dia. 1, Dia 15 3-plank dropside, Dia. 3, five private owner wagons, two unidentified open wagons and a Dia. 21 10 ton brake van (known as Tin Tabs - after cheap metal clad chapels of the time which were known as Tin Tabernacles)."

 

Precising - approximately 20 wagons in all of lower tare weights, then ~1910 larger wagons were coming on stream and the local trip goods would probably have still been the same number but a more powerful loco.

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

How do you manage that? What comes in loaded must go out empty (or vice-versa). Our club has had a couple of terminus layouts with a main and a branch line converging (or exchanging traffic) - they shared the same fiddle yard - full coal trains come in on the main and go of up the branch, empties come in on the branch and go out up the main, using a shared road in the fiddle yard.

 

 

So if I build another x wagons or y carriages, I have to fork out for another blasted engine?

Empty/loaded mineral traffic on BLT; scenario is that the colliery is off stage the other side of the scenic break and the exchange sidings are not actually modelled. Moreover, the connection ti them is assumed to be facing in the direction away from the terminus towards the junction.  
 

So, empty mineral trains must come up to the terminus, where the single line token is handed to the signalman who puts it in the instrument and clears the section.  Loco runs around and shunts the van, them gets the road to the exchange sidings, which are within station limits and protected by an outer home signal.  
 

Some time later, the same loco and brake van re-appear from the exchange sidings with a loaded train.  The run around and van shunt is repeated, and when a path to the junction becomes available, the driver collects the token from the signalman, and is right away Tondu (or wherever) when the inner loop starter clears.  
 

Alternatively, but I don’t have space, the empty mineral train passes beyond the passenger terminus, after observing the formalities with the token, to a colliery/quarry/whatever further up the valley, a very common situation in South Wales.  A loaded train reappears with the same loco and van a while later. 

 

Like the meerkat says, simples!  But it is a good way of complicating your timetable and increasing the number of movements if, like me, you’re into operating... 
 

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, MR Chuffer said:

FWIW, the L&YR Society provides an interesting set of figures if you're into pre-grouping goods trains.

 

Link here http://www.lyrs.org.uk/Wagons, as in:

 

"A Fleetwood to Blackpool goods train at Poulton in the early 20th century hauled by an 0-6-0ST converted by Aspinall from a Barton Wright tender engine. The train comprises: Dia 1 low goods, two Dia.3 covered goods, Dia. 1, Dia 15 3-plank dropside, Dia. 3, five private owner wagons, two unidentified open wagons and a Dia. 21 10 ton brake van (known as Tin Tabs - after cheap metal clad chapels of the time which were known as Tin Tabernacles)."

 

Precising - approximately 20 wagons in all of lower tare weights, then ~1910 larger wagons were coming on stream and the local trip goods would probably have still been the same number but a more powerful loco.

 

 

Clearly geography must be a big factor in this.

 

Britain from the Air has an Aerial photograph showing Guiseley in West Yorkshire in 1927. The Yard is being shunted by 2 0-6-0s (unsure if Deeleys/Kirkleys whatever as it's a bit early for me) presumably this is the pick up goods in action handling a much larger train?

 

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW017218

 

Here is the link now I've seen the image again it's very clearly two separate workings and my brain is clearly not remembering well and both locos look likely to be 3Fs.

 

Scuse me gent while I wipe this egg off my face!

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Aire Head

[kevinlms]

12 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

So if I get the exact ratio correct, then buy another loco, do I need to buy extra coaches and wagons now the ratio is out?

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Scrap an existing loco?

[adb968008]

On 30/12/2019 at 04:49, TonyMay said:

What was the prototypical ratio of locos:coaches:goods wagons historically, and how close to this ratio does any modeller actually get with the stock they own?

others quote actual railway numbers above, but nothing in terms of models..

 

i guess mine is a ratio of 1 loco :  0.5 coach : 0.75 wagons.. no where near prototypical. Ive a lot of locos, nearly double the size of my coaching stock fleet, but have many more wagons than coaches as I have many train load sets, a wagon is often 0.4x the length of a coach, meaning 2.5 wagons are often approx the length of 1 coach.

 

As a running rule on my layout:

1 coach for branch, 2 coaches for “busier” branches, 3/4 coaches for long distance slow trains, 5/6 coaches for long distance express or heavier commuter trains, I have run 7/8 for exceptions.. sleepers, motorail etc.

 

For freight it can be anything from 1 wagon, upto 25 for trainloads.

 

A longer distance train typically comprises of Brake+ 2nd/3rd + 2nd/3rd + 2nd/3rd + Catering + 1st, sometimes subbing a 2nd/3rd for a composite.

 

i dont use Mk1 BCKs specifically too often.. ive never quite figured out why / how these were used, but older BCKs I use on branches.

 

 

[MrWolf]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Empty/loaded mineral traffic on BLT; scenario is that the colliery is off stage the other side of the scenic break and the exchange sidings are not actually modelled. Moreover, the connection ti them is assumed to be facing in the direction away from the terminus towards the junction.  
 

So, empty mineral trains must come up to the terminus, where the single line token is handed to the signalman who puts it in the instrument and clears the section.  Loco runs around and shunts the van, them gets the road to the exchange sidings, which are within station limits and protected by an outer home signal.  
 

Some time later, the same loco and brake van re-appear from the exchange sidings with a loaded train.  The run around and van shunt is repeated, and when a path to the junction becomes available, the driver collects the token from the signalman, and is right away Tondu (or wherever) when the inner loop starter clears.  
 

Alternatively, but I don’t have space, the empty mineral train passes beyond the passenger terminus, after observing the formalities with the token, to a colliery/quarry/whatever further up the valley, a very common situation in South Wales.  A loaded train reappears with the same loco and van a while later. 

 

Like the meerkat says, simples!  But it is a good way of complicating your timetable and increasing the number of movements if, like me, you’re into operating... 
 

The Ynysybwl branch being a good example to research if you want an excuse to run loaded / empty freight past your normal traffic terminus. There would also be paddy trains ( good excuse to run outdated, ramshackle stock, as if I needed one!) and a good number of supply trains bringing up timber, spare parts and the occasional outsized loads of machinery. Of course you will need more locomotives and probably another one or two belonging to or assigned to the colliery / quarry. Any excuse. Just don't tell the domestic authorities. My friends wife thinks he has "about ten" vintage motorcycles. It took two of us a week to shift everything when he moved house.

[The Johnster]

Despite the fact that my layout represents one, there were almost no BLTs in the sense of the entire railway terminating in a set of buffers in South Wales.  Offhand, the only ones that comes to mind are Barry Pier, which was never regularly used and was to provide connection with excursion steamers, and Porthcawl, Merthyr Hight Street (a bit big to be called a BLT), and Dowlais Central (known locally as 'The Tip', built on an embankment of ironworks slag protruding from the hillside).  On the mining branches; the normal situation was either a line running past the terminus station to a colliery at the 'blaen', the very top end of the valley, which was very much the situation at Ynysybwl (un-iss-er-bull if you're having trouble with it) or, as at Dowlais Cae Harris or Ebbw Vale, a steelworks.  Abergwynfi, which is the inspiration for my layout Cwmdimbath, looks at first sight like a classic BLT but a colliery branch runs past behind it on a rising gradient.  

 

In many valleys, connecting lines carried on past the station through tunnels or up steep gradients to end on junctions with other railways; Aberdare (both stations), Rhymney (period spelling), Tredegar, Brynmawr, Blaenavon (period spelling) are examples.  Clarence Road in Cardiff's docklands looks like a terminus but a canal wharf railway carries on south past it.

 

Paddy trains are another matter.  There were many workman's services in the working timetable, but not the public one, and in some places platforms were provided at the colliery for them. such as at North Rhondda (actually not in the Rhondda Valley; South Wales is set up to deliberately confuse outsiders; it's named for the coal seam it worked), but these were passenger trains and had to be worked in accordance with regulations applying to passenger traffic, all coaches vacuum braked, a guard's compartment with a brake setter and a handbrake.  Stock was often older vehicles in the case of miner's trains in the days before pithead baths, with the upholstery removed so that they could be easily cleaned, but others, such as the Tremains ROF services, were normal passenger stock that would be used in public timetable service later in the day.  They often terminated at the passenger station, and the men walked the rest of the way to the pit.

 

Such trains are not paddy trains, though the Cwmmer Corrwg-North Rhondda miner's used the last GW 4 wheeled coaches until 1953 and the last clerestories until 1958, followed by the last GW 'Metropolitan' coaches, so they are a reason to include different types of stock.  A paddy train is something completely different and not allowed on a main railway's running lines.  It is used to transport miners or other workers around a colliery site entirely on NCB track, and may be old coaches or, as in the case of the Talywaun-Blaenserchan service, general merchandise vans with benches around the sides and ends.  They were loose coupled and unbraked

Edited January 5, 2020 by The Johnster

[Baby Deltic]

Who cares? You can never have enough stock so keep buying and happy modelling!

[The Johnster]

I care!  I'm a poor pensioner (cue the violins) on a limited budget and anything I buy has to work for it's living in the layout's working timetable, as well as being appropriate, or at least reasonably excusable, to the period and area that I model...

 

(This comment may be tongue in cheek, so keep buying and happy modelling!).

Edited January 5, 2020 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

11 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Scrap an existing loco?

 

Like that's going to happen.... 

 

Funnily enough since posting that I've found four locos I don't even remember buying whilst having a bit of clear up.  I can vaguely remember the Mainline J72 probably bought for spares as I already had a couple. Or as a project.

 

But why on earth did I buy two Hornby Class 90s and a Class 91 plus DVT? 

 

I had stopped modelling "modern image"/current well before they came out. Ah, the joys of bargain bins and eBay. 

 

 

 

Jason

[MrWolf]

Thanks for clearing that up, didn't think I was going daft. I lived over in west Wales for a while, near Ammanford and a lot of motorcycle trips involved tracing the remains of disused lines. A lot of the ex miners I knew used the term paddy train for anything that the miners rode in, including the underground trains that took men to the coal face, so you'll excuse me for that one! If it helps, I thought I only had five locomotives. Change that to seven.

[MrWolf]

Change that seven locomotives to eight as of ten minutes ago. Curse you eBay!!!

[The Johnster]

Change my roster to +1 as of yesterday pm.  Curse you Lord and Butler's old stock cabinet!!!

[MrWolf]

It happens. If it was any other sort of addiction, doubtless charities and the state would shower you with help (and cash) but our affliction remains unrecognized. I have been honest with my significant other from very early on. She even knows how many motorcycles I have (though possibly not how much I spend on them!) In my defence, just how many shoes she owns is one of the great mysteries of the world. She collects antique bayonets and military knives. Maybe I should be worried. I dunno... In reality, we only have to justify our hobbies to ourselves. If you like it and it isn't robbing food off your table to do so, buy it and run it. My layout can be run by two locomotives to be prototypical. There's no law about which two though!

[Nick Holliday]

In a lovely little book, Our Railway History by the wonderfully named Rixon Bucknall (I knew his brother Barry) there is an interesting table that I thought might be of relevance to this discussion, showing the situation at grouping.  The information came from The Railway Year Book.

 

[Compound2632]

So as a Midland modeller in 4 mm/ft scale, I should have 52 ft of route for every locomotive. It's a bit better on the wagon front: 15 inches per wagon...