PRM deadline passed - 1,200 carriages granted derogations!

[nightstar.train]

So the deadline has passed for all trains to be accessible to people of reduced mobility. Unsurprisingly a great many companies haven’t made the deadline due to late running deliveries of new stock/cascades, and/or DfT incompetence. I was surprised by the scale though, 1,200 vehicles granted a derogation. Full list here:

https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/non-prm-compliant-trains-get-last-minute-derogation/55433.article

 

Couple of surprises on there. Eurostar for the class 373, I still think of them as being new trains but I guess they’re 25 years + now. And Chiltern for their Mk3s. Do they still have a slam door set, or are their power door conversions not compliant somehow? 

The list also doesn’t include the permanent derogation granted to GWR for their Mk3 sleepers.  

[jim.snowdon]

And a real surprise, the idea that buses and coaches used for rail replacement services will have to comply with with the same PRM requirements as rail vehicles. That, I suspect, has nothing to do with the TSIs for railway interoperability but is an example of Whitehall embellishment of an EU directive. It is well over and above the requirements that are in place under the UK's Disability Discrimination Act, which is itself more prescriptive than the EU directive that it enables.

 

Jim

[JeffP]

As far as disabled access is concerned, since my wife became wheelchair bound 18 months ago, we have seen the good, the bad and the very bad.

The good has mostly been in the UK, the exception being french chain hotels which are at least, trying to do things right.

The bad is poor design meant for a disbaled person, but just having had little or no actual input from someone who would have to use it.

The very bad was also in the Uk, in a seaside town. The local councillor was not interested at all in our findings.

[woodenhead]

11 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

The list also doesn’t include the permanent derogation granted to GWR for their Mk3 sleepers.  

I guess it wont because they have a permanent derogation and this announcement was a temporary extension on that stock which had no derogation.

[Wickham Green]

4 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

And a real surprise, the idea that buses and coaches used for rail replacement services will have to comply with with the same PRM requirements as rail vehicles.

How many buses, coaches or - as mentioned - taxis have fully wheelchair-accessible bogs ??!?

 

..... and another question : when - as is so often the case round here - a train ( presumably otherwise compliant ) has "no accessible toilets" will the Minister insist that it doesn't run at all ! 

[mdvle]

15 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

Couple of surprises on there. Eurostar for the class 373, I still think of them as being new trains but I guess they’re 25 years + now. And Chiltern for their Mk3s. Do they still have a slam door set, or are their power door conversions not compliant somehow?

 

Perhaps it's the toilet that is Chiltern's problem?

 

5 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

And a real surprise, the idea that buses and coaches used for rail replacement services will have to comply with with the same PRM requirements as rail vehicles. That, I suspect, has nothing to do with the TSIs for railway interoperability but is an example of Whitehall embellishment of an EU directive.

 

Well, the article has the following to say - "Following complaints from disability groups, Heaton-Harris told operators that he would only grant a one-month extension for the use of non-compliant road vehicles."

 

So doesn't appear so much to be Whitehall as the alternatives provided by the TOCs not meeting the needs of the disabled - whether it be lack of staff around to order up the alternative, or lack of alternative availability, or perhaps even troubles when say a wheelchair person is traveling with 3 or so friends and being forced to split up.

 

4 hours ago, JeffP said:

As far as disabled access is concerned, since my wife became wheelchair bound 18 months ago, we have seen the good, the bad and the very bad.

The good has mostly been in the UK, the exception being french chain hotels which are at least, trying to do things right.

The bad is poor design meant for a disbaled person, but just having had little or no actual input from someone who would have to use it.

The very bad was also in the Uk, in a seaside town. The local councillor was not interested at all in our findings.

 

Yes, it is truly eye opening when you experience things either directly, or indirectly through a family member.  We often though how quickly things would change if the people in charge had to spend 2 to 4 weeks trying to do their daily life in a wheelchair...

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

How many buses, coaches or - as mentioned - taxis have fully wheelchair-accessible bogs ??!?

 

..... and another question : when - as is so often the case round here - a train ( presumably otherwise compliant ) has "no accessible toilets" will the Minister insist that it doesn't run at all ! 

 

Apparently yes based on this post (talking about the 143's on GWR, where they were/will be paired with compiiant units to make a "compliant train"), but later also noting that the toilet can be broken and have the train operate.

 

 

[John M Upton]

In the case of toilets on trains, there is no legal obligation to provide them, only that if they are provided, at least one has to be disabled accessible.  It doesn't say anything about it working though which after a Saturday night of the Great British Public they frequently aren't.

[caradoc]

This issue featured on BBC Breakfast the other day, and defective accessible toilets was raised by a disabled guest who had unfortunately experienced that problem first hand. What was not mentioned was whether the toilet concerned was the only one on the train, in which case all passengers were in the same boat (although it would be much easier of course for an able-bodied person to alight and use a station facility). In an ideal world toilets would not fail, or be made to fail, and every train would have more than one, however that would not really be feasible on a small train such as a 2 or 3 car DMU or EMU. It seems to me to be another example of an obvious problem with no easy or practical solution.

[adb968008]

1 minute ago, caradoc said:

This issue featured on BBC Breakfast the other day, and defective accessible toilets was raised by a disabled guest who had unfortunately experienced that problem first hand. What was not mentioned was whether the toilet concerned was the only one on the train, in which case all passengers were in the same boat (although it would be much easier of course for an able-bodied person to alight and use a station facility). In an ideal world toilets would not fail, or be made to fail, and every train would have more than one, however that would not really be feasible on a small train such as a 2 or 3 car DMU or EMU. It seems to me to be another example of an obvious problem with no easy or practical solution.

toilets on stations would solve much need, most journeys arent that long, and working toilets at every station would go a long way to solving the issues, whilst a different dog in another fight.. but I’d be in favour of DOO if it meant platform staff at every station too.

[Edge]

My friend from uni is confined to a wheelchair permanently and our experience has been that it is far far easier to get a wheelchair spot on a steam train than one on a mainline train. Weird that...

 

Additionally (and ironically enough), it seems the further out from the cities you go, the more helpful people are and we have been treated to some truly lovely service on local lines in the middle of nowhere, but given nothing but abuse in the cities.

 

should add that this is the personal experience of my friend and myself, just a disclaimer there folks

 

returning to the OP’s point, missing government mandated deadlines is something that the railways have done since the year dot. Whilst this is deplorable, it is sadly not too surprising.

[Dava]

So it gives a firm timescale for the East Midlands HST sets: the current Porterbook sets to 31.7.20 and the ex-LNER and Angel sets to 31.12.20. Which confirms what we knew, what happens then...?

 

Dava 

[John M Upton]

It will be a bit like Brexit, they will just grant more and more extensions until no one notices when the extension is amended to open ended...

[corneliuslundie]

There has been a considerable fuss about the proposal that the new light rail units for South Wales will not have toilets. TfW is proposing that late nigh trains should have toilet stops, but that assumes that the station toilets are in working order. Of course for most of the time there have been trains in the South Wales valleys none had toilets, nor did most suburban services around London. I rather suspect that if there is too much pressure on the matter the approach of the TOCs will be to eliminate toilets wherever possible. It gives more space for passengers, saves the cost of maintenance, emptying etc and avoids the accessibility issue. Cynical, me?

It is a difficult question: which is less bad: no train or a train without accessible toilets or doors? I have every sympathy with those who need the facilities, but sometimes it is the art of the possible, and with the way deliveries of new units have slipped, along with the dropping of electrification programmes which means that more diesel units are needed, the industry is in an impossible position.

Jonathan

[John M Upton]

One good thing about a train with no toilets, less hiding places for fare evaders.

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

toilets on stations would solve much need, most journeys arent that long, and working toilets at every station would go a long way to solving the issues, whilst a different dog in another fight.. but I’d be in favour of DOO if it meant platform staff at every station too.

Define platform staff?

Is it one person in the ticket office?

One platform person per station?

One platform person per platform?

Can one person do the ticket office and platform assistance?

What about the many stations which are currently unmanned?

What about the stations which only have ticket office staff?

What about stations which only have one train an hour or less?

What hours would they work, peak times only, AM only, from start of service to finish?

 

Its just wonderful that you would bin a whole grade with such a sweeping statement from a n obvious position of limited knowledge or understanding!

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, Edge said:

returning to the OP’s point, missing government mandated deadlines is something that the railways have done since the year dot. Whilst this is deplorable, it is sadly not too surprising.

Hardly surprising when its a Government Department which was responsible for the timescales of getting the trains PRM compliant or replaced and they did a diabolical job of it!

 

But I suppose thats the railways fault for being privatised the wrong way.

[roythebus]

Several points raised here. Buses have to be PSVAR compliant from 1st January 2020. It's not a new law, it was announced over 20 years ago so should have come as no surprise to any bus or coach operator. One effect will be that the familiar sight of RTs and rMs working "rail strike" and rail emergency days in London will no longer be permitted. so Londoners will have far less buses available on strike days because of this. Rather no bus than non-compliant bus? Similarly the use of super luxury coaches even if very new may not be permitted because they do not comply with PSVAR.

 

Yet again the world will run out of railway replacement buses at certain times. TOCs and service supervisors could face fines of up the £2500 for causing or permitting a non-compliant bus to run. On top of that we have the London ULEZ/LEZ to comply with!

 

Going onto the rails, when these laws were introduce, if a light or device to assist the disable was not working, the train would have t be withdrawn from service. It was then pointed out that lines such as York-Whitby had a single car every 4 hours. Disabled light fails=no train. the law was hastily changed. Train with light not working was deemed better than no train.

 

Going on to heritage lines, if a vehicle has been used within the last 20 years, it can claim exemption. If it hasn't, it has to be treated as a new vehicle and has to comply. Hence on the KESR for instance the recently restored SECR Birdcage brake has the restored toilet locked out of use because it deposits waste on the track. It had been out of service for many years and deemed a new vehicle for the purpose of the Act.

 

Heritage railways generally have more staff than the average TOC station, of an older age group than TOC staff and more sympathirtic to the needs of those who are less able-bodied.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, royaloak said:

Define platform staff?

Is it one person in the ticket office?

One platform person per station?

One platform person per platform?

Can one person do the ticket office and platform assistance?

What about the many stations which are currently unmanned?

What about the stations which only have ticket office staff?

What about stations which only have one train an hour or less?

What hours would they work, peak times only, AM only, from start of service to finish?

 

Its just wonderful that you would bin a whole grade with such a sweeping statement from a n obvious position of limited knowledge or understanding!

Platform staff, by nature would be visible on the platform.

 

its easy to have limited knowledge of someone you never see.

 

Trains around my way have been DOO for as long as I can remember.. people stopped slamming doors 16 years ago, CCTV is now high definition, most of the populace have smart phones and instant communication... the gap is a visible face on the platform.. when things go bump usually the first thing to disappear is the onboard staff... sorry thats just how my experience has been. 

 

customer facing staff, no I don't mean “Mr Perks at Oakworth”, but with first aid qualifications armed with technology for updating passengers and assisting people who need it, and responsible for despatching the train is to me in no way a bad thing... I like TFL rail.. its DOO and they put people back on many once abandoned stations ... it feels safer...At the end of the day theres more dangers and more need for passengers with assistance on a busy exposed platform than on a hermetically sealed, automated doors and air conditioned train... its not slam doors, opening windows & passengers who self manage any more... but I do agree DOO on unstaffed stations is a little too lonely, especially late at night in bad weather.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by adb968008

[royaloak]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I like TFL rail.. its DOO and they put people back on many once abandoned stations ... it feels safer...

How much subsidy does TFL rail receive?

How far apart are the TFL stations?

[adb968008]

Just now, royaloak said:

How much subsidy does TFL rail receive?

How far apart are the TFL stations?

Horses for courses.

 

i’m just saying what I see, and I think it works.. i’m the one buying the ticket.. but being a customer had never held that much weight with unions Ive found.

 

I have Southern DOO too, its fine... I grew up near Moses Gate near Bolton, when it had staff it felt safe.. today it feels like a no-go zone, especially when its lights dont work at night... having to wait for something to come, or being close to the platform waiting to be picked up when the guard waves good bye on his 142 is cold comfort.. on board that pacer it feels safe enough.. but you only see the guard to open / close the doors and if anything kicked off I doubt he would come to my rescue.. he's a train guard not a bodyguard.

 

 

[royaloak]

So because it works in your corner of the busy South East it should be rolled out Nationally, does that go for the trains every 5 minutes that you get as well?

Edited January 2, 2020 by royaloak

[adb968008]

19 minutes ago, royaloak said:

So because it works in your corner of the bust South East it should be rolled out Nationally, does that go for the trains every 5 minutes that you get as well?

Bolton saw plenty of Network South East stock in the 1990’s but its definitely not in the Network South East travelcard area. I’m guessing your living In the Orkneys with that statement..As NSE definitely reached Wick too.
 

You prefer unlit stations, with no staff ?

 

I wish my train was every five minutes, I might then get a seat, rather than subsidising someone else's seat outside the south east whilst crushed against a door.

 

Does everywhere have to have the same standard ?

my recent experience with a disabled person was a XC at Birmingham.. they got assistance with boarding in Bristol, guard went awol at New Street, but for my help, said person would have been going to Derby.. I didnt find a guard.. he was awol to me too, but the platform staff were the only ones able to help... at both Bristol and Birmingham...good job it was a long stop at New St.. dunno how it would have worked at an unstaffed station... guard nor driver would have known she wanted to get off... with a 30 second stop there wouldn't be enough time to walk through the train to find help, and i’m not risking detraining and losing my child looking for a driver or guard who decides to close doors and go on a hop.

 

platform staff are to me very important... they aren't running to a schedule, more people focussed and a visible security presence.

Edited January 3, 2020 by adb968008

[royaloak]

29 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Does everywhere have to have the same standard ?

According to you yes!

 

I said South East not Network South East, try reading what is actually written.

 

Platform Staff are very much running to a schedule, just as all staff responsible for train running and dispatch are.

Edited January 3, 2020 by royaloak

[LBRJ]

I am not sure how this thread has drifted onto the matter of DOO trains (which for anybody who has spent half an hour on non-commuter reading a book for ten minutes type trains is just beyond the realms of reason).

 

Also I am a bit confused as to where all these disabled /wheelchair bound people that need to be catered for actually are?

(ok, they are probably not anywhere near trains cos the access is crap ...)

 

In quite a reasonably long experience of the on train environment, the number of people in wheelchairs was astonishingly small, and most of those that were present were fully au fait with how to go about boarding the train etc They were also very aware that there was a limited amount of spaces at the best of times.

 

I am also, like most people aware of others needs; not all disabilities are immediately visible - and having spent the best part of six months on crutches I really am aware of this....."oh you just got a limp..." - No I cant walk, an Im not used to these tings either.