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PRM deadline passed - 1,200 carriages granted derogations!


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1 hour ago, LBRJ said:

Also I am a bit confused as to where all these disabled /wheelchair bound people that need to be catered for actually are?

(ok, they are probably not anywhere near trains cos the access is crap ...)

 

As you say, the system has to generally meet a certain threshold of accessibility for it to be a viable option for the people who need the accessibility.  And the only way to get to that state is to force change, even if some of the infrastructure will take decades to get there.

 

But if you can (perhaps by the end of 2020) finally say that every train is now wheelchair/disabled accessible (and any substitutions) then those sort of people will be more likely to see if they can arrange a trip using accessible stations, a process that is pointless if you can't guarantee that the train that shows up is accessible.

 

Then of course there is the fact that most of the stuff makes life easier for a lot of people who aren't disabled, like parents with young children or even people who are otherwise mobile but can't deal with large elevation changes (yes, not necessarily relevant to the topic at hand of disabled toilets, but applies to the laws in general).

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, royaloak said:

According to you yes!

 

I said South East not Network South East, try reading what is actually written.

 

Platform Staff are very much running to a schedule, just as all staff responsible for train running and dispatch are.

That makes it two post you didnt read before seeing red then.

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The battle against the principle of DOO was surely lost in 1983 when BR first introduced it ! My local line has been DOO for over 30 years and I do not have the slightest qualm about travelling on it, in fact I will be on DOO trains later today. However, should every train be DOO - Absolutely not, there are plenty of services on which DOO has not been, and should not be, ever contemplated. However if there is a second staff member booked on every train, and that member is relieved of the duty of opening and closing the doors, does that not give them much more time to be of assistance and re-assurance to passengers - One of the very reasons the RMT insists Guards must be retained !

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As someone who doesn't drive, with a partner who's a wheelchair user, the train is really the only option for long-distance travel within the UK for us. Airlines have a bad habit of damaging wheelchairs (which they often treat as luggage, expecting the passenger to use a non-adapted airport wheelchair unless absolutely impossible), and as any wheelchair user will tell you, it's not just the loss of a several-thousand-pound piece of equipment, that's effectively the loss of your legs for as long as it takes to get it repaired (assuming you can get the airline to pay out from their insurance for the repair, which can take weeks (the repair) and months (getting the airline to pay out)). US domestic airlines (I don't have the figures for UK ones) damage an average of 29 wheelchairs *a day*. 

Meanwhile, to travel by train with a chair in the UK, you have to book assistance 24 hours in advance of travel, and as has been mentioned that's not a guarantee that someone will show up. "Assistance" can vary from someone to push the wheelchair, give advice on where the connecting train will be, help with luggage etc through to slamming a ramp down with a surly grunt. Oh yes, I as a member of the public can't get the ramp myself to help my partner down - they're kept under lock and key. Perhaps a RADAR key-type thing could work for these, similar to those used for getting into (non-train-mounted) accessible toilets?

We've also had journeys where we've phoned ahead, booked a wheelchair space on a train (the Caledonian Sleeper, no less), only to have the train cancelled on the morning of the day of travel and to be told that a replacement coach/bus was being provided. On asking whether the coach was accessible, an embarrassed "um, no..." was the response. Under normal circumstances that wouldn't have been enough time to organise assistance. Fortunately the customer service rep I talked to was extremely helpful and pulled a few strings but it's easy to see how we could have been trapped hundreds of miles from home.



To cut a long story short, accessible trains will make our travelling much easier, but we still can't spontaneously go on a train journey due to the requirement to book assistance 24 hours in advance. Still, small steps (no pun intended) are appreciated. I look forward to the day that trains can be accessed by wheelchair users without needing to rely on someone else being there.

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17 hours ago, Edge said:

Additionally (and ironically enough), it seems the further out from the cities you go, the more helpful people are and we have been treated to some truly lovely service on local lines in the middle of nowhere, but given nothing but abuse in the cities.

 

Why is that ironic? In my experience it is almost invariably the case that people are friendlier and more helpful the further you get from large cities.

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3 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:


To cut a long story short, accessible trains will make our travelling much easier, but we still can't spontaneously go on a train journey due to the requirement to book assistance 24 hours in advance. Still, small steps (no pun intended) are appreciated. I look forward to the day that trains can be accessed by wheelchair users without needing to rely on someone else being there.

Nor, can you do so on main line trains anywhere else in Europe. The PRM TSI is addressed at improving mobility for all, not just the disabled, and from what I understand of it, takes a more pragmatic approach whereas the UK's approach is heavily slanted in favour of the wheelchair bound, partly, if not largely, as a result of specific disability lobby groups.

 

Jim

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9 hours ago, caradoc said:

The battle against the principle of DOO was surely lost in 1983 when BR first introduced it ! My local line has been DOO for over 30 years and I do not have the slightest qualm about travelling on it, in fact I will be on DOO trains later today. However, should every train be DOO - Absolutely not, there are plenty of services on which DOO has not been, and should not be, ever contemplated. However if there is a second staff member booked on every train, and that member is relieved of the duty of opening and closing the doors, does that not give them much more time to be of assistance and re-assurance to passengers - One of the very reasons the RMT insists Guards must be retained !

Even the bloke who was responsible for introducing DOO says it was the wrong thing to do and they were only looking from an operational point of view, not a passenger point of view.

 

How many DOO schemes still have the second person on board doing customer service, Bed-Pan, Gatwick Express etc, the answer is none (give Southern 2 years and they will be gone and everything will be done by the man in the van) simply because once you take the safety critical stuff away from a grade you make them optional, once they are optional they are done away with in the race to save a few quid.

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28 minutes ago, royaloak said:

How many DOO schemes still have the second person on board doing customer service, Bed-Pan, Gatwick Express etc, the answer is none (give Southern 2 years and they will be gone and everything will be done by the man in the van) simply because once you take the safety critical stuff away from a grade you make them optional, once they are optional they are done away with in the race to save a few quid.

 

I travel on Southern at least four days every week for at least six or seven years (before and after the move from "guards" to "On Board Supervisors"), and I can count on my hands the number of times I've actually seen either a guard or OBS do anything other than hide in a spare cab. The only exceptions are when I've been down the Uckfield Line, or down onto Coastway.

 

When things go wrong, I'd say I more often hear announcements from the drivers on DOO Thameslink services than I do from guards or OBSs on Southern. In fact several times when I have actually heard a Southern OBS make an announcement, the driver has then done another announcement to clarify because they'd got it wrong.

 

If the presence or not of an OBS makes no difference to passengers, because they don't actually do any on-board supervising when they are there, its easy to see why people won't care when they're gone!

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21 hours ago, royaloak said:

How much subsidy does TFL rail receive?

 

NONE!

 

Its been mentioned before on here that the previous Cameron and May led Governments axed any form of revenue support to TfL on the basis that 'the capital was rich enough to pay for its self'

 

That means fares from the tube network (which does generate a profit) has to pay for ROAD REPAIRS to the likes of the A40, A12, etc!

 

NO OTHER CAPITAL CITY IN THE WORLD RECEIVES ZERO MONEY TOWARDS ITS DAY TO DAY TRANSPORT NEEDS FROM THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT

 

Since this change (which Boris cynically agreed to before announcing he wasn't running for a 3rd Mayoral term) TfLs fiances have been under severe pressure - mainly due to Mayor Kahn's fare freeze and Crossrails woes (TfLs entire financial budgeting is based on Crossrail returning substantial profits - hence why they were so desperate to get a slice of the Reading fares receipts even if opening of it was being delayed).

 

Recent cost saving issues have included:-

 

Continued cuts to bus services even though many of them were justified on the basis of Crossrail being open by now.

A halt on all road repairs / resurfacing unless there is a danger to life issue

The sale and leaseback of the Crossrail trains to give them enough money to replace the Piccadilly line trains.

All further tube train renewal plans put on hold.

 

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1 hour ago, royaloak said:

Even the bloke who was responsible for introducing DOO says it was the wrong thing to do and they were only looking from an operational point of view, not a passenger point of view.

 

How many DOO schemes still have the second person on board doing customer service, Bed-Pan, Gatwick Express etc, the answer is none (give Southern 2 years and they will be gone and everything will be done by the man in the van) simply because once you take the safety critical stuff away from a grade you make them optional, once they are optional they are done away with in the race to save a few quid.

 

I agree, there is a risk that running trains without the second member of staff, whatever their grade or title might be, becomes normalised; IMHO when DOO is agreed, it should be a franchise commitment to roster the second staff member for every train, and each failure to actually provide that person should be recorded and form part of that TOC's Performance Regime. 

 

From personal experience in Scotland it is actually quite rare not to have the second person on DOO trains, although here they are ATEs. However we now have the strange situation where trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh via Bathgate run all day long DOO, whereas similar trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh via Falkirk High, or Shotts, must have a Guard. And, again from personal experience, I have seen no discernible difference in customer service between the two staffing modes.

 

 

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21 hours ago, royaloak said:

How much subsidy does TFL rail receive?

How far apart are the TFL stations?

 

20 hours ago, royaloak said:

So because it works in your corner of the busy South East it should be rolled out Nationally, does that go for the trains every 5 minutes that you get as well?

 

The point is not so much that DOO should be rolled out everywhere - its that it IS a sensible option for SOME service groups.

 

In that respect the DfT mandarins and the RMT are just as bad as each other - neither is willing to compromise when ultimately given the diversity of our rail network a 'one size fits all' approach is unsuitable regardless of whether we are talking about operational matters or indeed physical things like train lengths / layouts / top speeds / acceleration rates / etc.

 

In inner London the staffing over every London Overground station is in my view a far superior use of money than Guards on every train. However staffing every station in Cornwall is quite clearly not sensible - particularly on the branch lines and so services in that part of England would probably be better being run with a Guard instead.

 

Similarly while Leeds to Skipton is OK as DOO I would totally reject the notion that the section from Skipton to Carlisle is suitable for DOO due to the sparse (and sometimes unstable) terrain the line passes through.

 

 

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On 02/01/2020 at 20:43, Edge said:

 

Additionally (and ironically enough), it seems the further out from the cities you go, the more helpful people are and we have been treated to some truly lovely service on local lines in the middle of nowhere, but given nothing but abuse in the cities.

 

Doing the Cumbria Round Robin tour in 2018, I noticed the Northern Rail Conductor(ess) struggling to deploy the wheelchair ramp at Maryport Station, so that a wheelchair user could alight.

The driver (a DRS employee) got down out of his cab and helped with the ramp. Can't see that happening in many places.

(This was with the DRS hauled stock and a 68 each end)

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