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Peco points mystery


MikeHunter
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Hi Everyone. I'm just setting my layout up after a couple of months in storage following a house move. Started track testing, and three Peco insulfrog points which all worked fine before are completely dead. Its got me foxed. My first thought was that the rails were dirty, but extensive cleaning doesn't seem to be fixing the problem. I've tried both a track rubber and cleaning with isopropyl. The layout is a shunting plank, DCC controlled with an NCE power cab. All the wiring appears to be in tact, and the rest of the track and points run fine. Any ideas?

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Do the points have separate feeds or are you feeding them through fish plates.  They could be something to check.  A house move suggests something may have been shaken or dislodged. Wiring can look fine but may not be making a good connection.  Do you have any sort of meter you can use to check for continuity?

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Probably dirt under the rails where the little connecting tabs at the bottom of the point blades make contact or where the sides of the blades make contact on certain (useless) batches of points.  The tags can't cope with shorts or loads much over 1 amp.  You really need separate switching rather than rely on the blades with out of the box DCC unless you add some protection such as 1/2 amp poly switches.    Outdoors with DC  I use really cheap as in 10 for £1 microswitches in parallel with the point blade switching.

Edited by DavidCBroad
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3 hours ago, MikeHunter said:

...three Peco insulfrog points which all worked fine before are completely dead. ...the rest of the track and points run fine. Any ideas?

One thought that does occur is that not all Peco points are equal. The design has altered over the years and the one time 'tab' on the point blade that went under the stock rail to make a wiping contact (mentioned above) has been discontinued.

 

And as 'Meil' above, a multimeter, or failing that a low voltage supply and matching light bulb will aid in tracking down exactly where the loss of continuity occurs.

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I had a stored layout ‘die’ with similar symptoms, and the problem was down to poor/absent contact between switch rails and stock rails, and in the fishplates that’s formed the flex-point for the switch-rails, due to some sort of tarnishing. Given that NS oxide is supposed to be conductive, goodness knows how the tarnish formed, but it was over every part of the rails, and made the NS look entirely dull and very, very slightly rough to the touch. I wonder if it was an acidic effect.

 

The points were teeny-weeny little 009 things, 150mm radius with Code 40 rail, and I found it impossible to clean everything well enough to resuscitate them, so the layout went to the skip.

 

i think the storage conditions were the problem: in the eaves of a garage, exposed to significant temperature cycling and ambient humidity variation, for five years. Prior to that it had lived indoors in a cupboard for 20+ years without any problems arising.

 

If the removal storage was un-heated/not dehumidified, and your tails look dull, suspect similar.

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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26 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I had a stored layout ‘die’ with similar symptoms, and the problem was down to poor/absent contact between switch rails and stock rails, and in the fishplates that’s formed the flex-point for the switch-rails, due to some sort of tarnishing. Given that NS oxide is supposed to be conductive, goodness knows how the tarnish formed, but it was over every part of the rails, and made the NS look entirely dull and very, very slightly rough to the touch. I wonder if it was an acidic effect.

 

The points were teeny-weeny little 009 things, 150mm radius with Code 40 rail, and I found it impossible to clean everything well enough to resuscitate them, so the layout went to the skip.

 

i think the storage conditions were the problem: in the eaves of a garage, exposed to significant temperature cycling and ambient humidity variation, for five years. Prior to that it had lived indoors in a cupboard for 20+ years without any problems arising.

 

If the removal storage was un-heated/not dehumidified, and your tails look dull, suspect similar.

 

 

 

I suspect similar, but not as pronounced, as the layout hasn't been stored long, and is now in a converted and well insulated garage. The plain track runs well, after only a superficial clean. Multimetre has lost its leads in the move, as soon as I locate them, will use it to test. If I haven't solved the mystery first. It seems to be the whole of the point - ie. from the fishplates at the toe end, so it may be the electrical connection via the fishplates. I bought the layout already operational, so don't think they have dropper wires. Next stage is to hard wire the toe of the point into the power bus with new dropper wires to see if that cures it.

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If its fish plates not making contact then wiring to the bus is a good option.   My experience with fishplates outside in the damp is once fishplates give trouble they need to be replaced. We have oiled them, wriggled them, cleaned them, but its only a temporary cure.  Once they have lost the springiness its best to bin them. Obviously the outside branch is outside 24/7 rather than a bit damp, but the same principles apply.  

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Try loading the track with a current burner and move your thumb round the rails. If you yelp at any particular joint due to ‘hot’  then it is hi-resistance (i.e. loose fishplates) and needs fettling.

Edited by RAF96
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22 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

... goodness knows how the tarnish formed, but it was over every part of the rails, and made the NS look entirely dull and very, very slightly rough to the touch. I wonder if it was an acidic effect... I think the storage conditions were the problem: in the eaves of a garage, exposed to significant temperature cycling and ambient humidity variation, for five years...

Also think about materials in the garage construction or stored in it, steadily releasing vapour or gas. It's a long time past now, but a friend stored his 'serious' bike hung on the wall of a mate's garage while on assignment over the pond for what turned out to be five years. Sadly, the ignored 'plating pickle' in said mate's garage savaged his bike...

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