Wagon Sheet pooling

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Greetings All,

 

In the era of wagon pooling, what was the etiquette regarding wagon sheets? Would it be common for, say, a GWR wagon to be sheeted with an SR sheet? 

 

And on on a similar note, were wagon sheets such an insignificant sundry item that pre-grouping sheets lived on well into the grouping years?

 

A simple question, maybe, but is there a simple answer?!

 

Thanks in advance

[Baby Deltic]

I think tarpaulins and sheets were generally folded and sent back with the wagon when it was empty. I'm sure every region used wagon sheets as required, but back in the days of the Big Four they would have used their own wagons if the load originated at one of their goods depots which makes sense because the wagon would more than likely have been returned in due course, sheet and all. It mast have been a bit of a pain if, say the GWR sheeted an SR wagon with their sheet because the wagon would go back to the SR with their sheet. Maybe they just sent the sheets back on the next convenient working?

[Compound2632]

The best article I know of on wagon sheets is R. Essery, Sheets, Ropes & Sacks, Midland Record No. 3 (Wild Swan).

 

I did have all the dates - in a post on here somewhere - but if I'm not mistaken, wagon sheets were pooled from around the time during the Great War that ordinary open wagons were pooled. (The situation described by @Baby Deltic certainly applied before the Great War, with demurrage charged on sheets and ropes as well as wagons, but with pooling the first suitable wagon and sheet would be used.) This means that from late pre-Grouping times through to nationalisation, any sheet could be used on any wagon, as is, I think, borne out by photographs. I think that sheets would have to be returned to their home company's sheet stores for repair and refurbishment by the due date painted on them in red - they seem to have been given about 18 - 21 months in traffic. Thus there would be a periodic "return to go" and, coupled with the instructions to fold them up neatly and put them in the bottom of the wagon, a resultant tendency for them to be found with wagons of their home company, merely as a statistical effect rather than as a result of any company requirements.

 

I can't remember if the Midland Record article says anything about the total life expectancy of a sheet but it's clear that any pre-grouping branding would have been replaced by group branding within two years of the grouping.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Compound2632

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Interesting, thank you for the info

[Andy Hayter]

Notwithstanding what has been written, there is an overlying logistics point that for me means that "wrong" sheets on a wagon would be rather unusual, even though it was permitted.

 

A wagon arrives at a goods shed/yard for unloading, the sheet is removed, the wagon unloaded and then the sheet is put into the wagon.  

When the wagon is selected for its next loading it has a sheet available.  So there would be a tendency for sheets and wagons to stay together.  The exceptions might be where a sheet was found to be damaged and needing to be replaced, or where a particular load by dint of its dimensions required more than one sheet to cover it.

 

Photos are unfortunately relatively rare but I have seen very few obvious cases where a foreign sheet has been used on a wagon that can be identified with the sheet over it.  [ Stands back and awaits a host of useful photos proving me wrong.]

 

So while sheets could theoretically be used as and when without restriction, in practice I think it was not that common.  

I think the common user rules were introduced regarding sheets and ropes rather more to avoid the need to return them within a set time period, rather than to allow their random use.  

[Compound2632]

@Andy Hayter, I'm sure you are right there - the process of diffusion might not be very rapid, limited also by that 18 - 21 months in traffic, unlike a pooled wagon that might have several years to wander off its home system. My favourite photo illustrating the pooling of sheets is a shot of Sandon Dock, probably early 20s, that was the background to the wagonsheets.co.uk website - which unfortunately cannot now be found* - this photo showed several open wagons from different companies, each with a "foreign" sheet. But that was a large goods station, where the possibility of a sheet being taken from one wagon and put on another was presumably higher. I've yet tracked this photo down on line but I haven't trawled through SSPL and Getty Images.

 

*Does anyone have any information on this or on the owner, Thomas Petith, as @3D Print Tom an RMWebber who has been inactive for a year - he had an excellent product.

[The Johnster]

Ask yourself what circumstances would pertain for a wagon and it’s tarp to become separated.  Wagon, with sheeted load arrives at destination goods depot/private siding.  Sheet is taken off and wagon is unloaded, sheet folded and chucked into wagon.  
 

If the wagon is a non-pool foreigner, it must be returned to it’s owning railway next available clearance.  If there is traffic on hand suitable for it, it is loaded up and sent on it’s way, if not, the depot’s goods agent will try to find traffic that can be loaded before the wagon is due away.  Otherwise it goes back to it’s own railway empty. 
 

If it is a pool wagon or one from the home railway, the first part of the operation is the same; the sheet is removed and the wagon unloaded.  But it may now be kept on hand awaiting a load or, on the instruction of Goods Control, sent somewhere else empty to be loaded.  The tarp is folded up and thrown into the empty wagon just the same, though. 
 

So, by and large, there is no mechanism by which the tarp becomes separated from it’s wagon.  Of course, by and large means that occasionally it will; perhaps a load needs to be stored in the open.  As tarps were buried under loads when they were not required it would not be immediately apparent to anyone that the tarp is missing until the wagon is completely unloaded, and even then it is probable that nobody bothered about it if the new load did not require covering. 
 

I am presuming from here on in, that depots had stores of spare tarps or could order them, but that matters became more complex when wagons were being loaded at private sidings or ports, where the depot stores may be some distance away. 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

As tarps were buried under loads when they were not required

 

 

Interesting. I take this is from your own experience as a railwayman? I assume we're talking other merchandise loads, whole or part.

 

@Mikkel posted this on my wagon-building thread:

Forth Bank Goods Station, Newcastle, 1893. The three wagons nearest the camera on the left all have their sheets folded per instructions, in the doorway of the wagon nearest then over a corner of each of the next two wagons. I don't see the sheets from any of the line of wagons on the right, or the line of wagons behind the pillars. Do they all chance to be tucked away out of the camera's view?

Edited January 3, 2020 by Compound2632

[Bucoops]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@Andy Hayter, I'm sure you are right there - the process of diffusion might not be very rapid, limited also by that 18 - 21 months in traffic, unlike a pooled wagon that might have several years to wander off its home system. My favourite photo illustrating the pooling of sheets is a shot of Sandon Dock, probably early 20s, that was the background to the wagonsheets.co.uk website - which unfortunately cannot now be found* - this photo showed several open wagons from different companies, each with a "foreign" sheet. But that was a large goods station, where the possibility of a sheet being taken from one wagon and put on another was presumably higher. I've yet tracked this photo down on line but I haven't trawled through SSPL and Getty Images.

 

*Does anyone have any information on this or on the owner, Thomas Petith, as @3D Print Tom an RMWebber who has been inactive for a year - he had an excellent product.

 

The wayback machine (Internet archiver) has copies of the site:

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20181126220649/http://www.wagonsheets.co.uk/

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

The wayback machine (Internet archiver) has copies of the site:

 

 

Annoyingly, that's not the photo I was thinking of, which might have been the background to one of the other pages of the site or else somewhere else altogether.

 

But here's Birmingham Central Goods (Midland Railway) 22 Sept 1922. I think the wagon on the right, with NE sheet 32745, is a Midland wagon, going by the axleboxes and other details. That sheet went into traffic in Nov 1920 - white numbers at the RH end. Unfortunately the "best before" date in red doesn't show up but it must be nearly due for recall.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Compound2632

[dvdlcs]

Would there be a problem, if to use the original example of a GWR wagon with a SR sheet, that the tie-down locations on the wagon (or the overall dimensions of the wagon) may be different such that the ropes on the SR sheet are not long enough and/or in the wrong positions to secure the tarp to the wagon? Or were these things sufficiently similar, e.g. RCH designs, that that was not an issue?

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, dvdlcs said:

Would there be a problem, if to use the original example of a GWR wagon with a SR sheet, that the tie-down locations on the wagon (or the overall dimensions of the wagon) may be different such that the ropes on the SR sheet are not long enough and/or in the wrong positions to secure the tarp to the wagon? Or were these things sufficiently similar, e.g. RCH designs, that that was not an issue?

 

No. Sheets were pretty much standard dimensions, with 16 brass eyelets around the sides and an additional three on triangular flaps sewn into the first seam along each side - the sheets were made of five lengths of material sewn together longways. The tie ropes could be replaced. Wagon had securing rings on the body side or side rail, or cleats on the solebar or underside of the side rail, usually three per side, and similarly two or three on the ends. Those were the official securing places but buffer guides, axleguards, lifting holes on steel-framed wagons, are often seen being used. The instructions were that moving parts should not be used - springs, buffer shanks, drawhooks. The same goes for ropes, whether used to secure the load before sheeting or to help secure the sheet - the latter especially if two sheets were needed. Full BR era instructions here, thanks to the Barrowmore Model Railway Group - these instructions are much the same as LNWR and Midland instructions I've seen, so represent the accumulated wisdom of a century of practice!

 

I note, para. 145, that by BR days, the "do not use after" date had changed from red to yellow.

 

A useful secondary source of information is the igg website.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

The colour changed because red/brown tarpaulins came into use during World War II.

I wonder though if in larger goods depots tarpaulins did get thrown into the empty wagons, or if they were piled up for re-use as needed. as I suspect that often wagons would be reloaded soon after they were emptied. Just an uniformed thought.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

tarpaulins did get thrown into the empty wagons, or if they were piled up for re-use as needed.

 

Thrown? The instructions are explicit on how they should be folded. I would imagine anyone responsible for damage would be in hot water.

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

The colour changed because red/brown tarpaulins came into use during World War II.

I wonder though if in larger goods depots tarpaulins did get thrown into the empty wagons, or if they were piled up for re-use as needed. as I suspect that often wagons would be reloaded soon after they were emptied. Just an uniformed thought.

Jonathan

 

I agree with the above comment about the regulations, but additionally remember that in the real world (rather than our cosy blt with goods shed and 30 scale feet of siding) open wagons were mostly loaded and unloaded in the open and sometimes many tens of yards from the goods shed.  Carrying a lightweight (not) tarp from the shed to the wagon for each load would have been something to avoid at all costs.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The colour changed because red/brown tarpaulins came into use during World War II.

I wonder though if in larger goods depots tarpaulins did get thrown into the empty wagons, or if they were piled up for re-use as needed. as I suspect that often wagons would be reloaded soon after they were emptied. Just an uniformed thought.

Jonathan

Sheets and tarpaulins were two different things.  What was used on wagons were sheets and as far as I can trace back, and in my experience of them in their later years, they were never known to railwaymen as anything other than sheets or, occasionally, wagon sheets.  If they weren't handled and stored properly they could be fairly easily damaged and they were in any case latterly controlled in the same a manner as freight rolling stock with depots required to make a daily return of sheets on hand.   The problems with damage due to misuse and mishandling finally led BR to experimenting with plastic wagon sheets which gradually displaced the older type and were far more robust.

 

Tarpaulins came in two forms - one was the description at one time of certain wet weather clothing items for staff engaged in outdoor work - principally Shunters.  The other use was something more akin to the more general usage of the term and on the GWR (and possibly on other railways?) applied specifically to tarpaulins allocated to stations and depots for the specific purpose of covering traffic on hand to prevent it getting wet or damaged by water etc.  I've an idea - without checking  at this time of night - that tarpaulins were a general stores item but in any case they were issued and controlled in a completely different manner from the procedure applying to sheets.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Sheets and tarpaulins were two different things.  What was used on wagons were sheets and as far as I can trace back, and in my experience of them in their later years, they were never known to railwaymen as anything other than sheets or, occasionally, wagon sheets.  If they weren't handled and stored properly they could be fairly easily damaged and they were in any case latterly controlled in the same a manner as freight rolling stock with depots required to make a daily return of sheets on hand.   The problems with damage due to misuse and mishandling finally led BR to experimenting with plastic wagon sheets which gradually displaced the older type and were far more robust.

 

Tarpaulins came in two forms - one was the description at one time of certain wet weather clothing items for staff engaged in outdoor work - principally Shunters.  The other use was something more akin to the more general usage of the term and on the GWR (and possibly on other railways?) applied specifically to tarpaulins allocated to stations and depots for the specific purpose of covering traffic on hand to prevent it getting wet or damaged by water etc.  I've an idea - without checking  at this time of night - that tarpaulins were a general stores item but in any case they were issued and controlled in a completely different manner from the procedure applying to sheets.

 

That all ties in with the Essery Midland Record article, which is based around early 20th century accounts - an article written by a GNR railwayman in 1904 and an early LMS description of the ex-Midland sheet stores at Sheet Stores Junction, IIRC. Woe betide anyone found using a wagon sheet for static cover.

[corneliuslundie]

Apologies for causing confusion. I meant sheets in my reference to brown, I was working from a comment in the forthcoming volume in the HMRS Southern Style series on the Southern Railway by John Harvey - which is sitting on my laptop being laid out, hopefully for publication by May.

Jonathan

[Wickham Green]

On 03/01/2020 at 18:52, The Johnster said:

Ask yourself what circumstances would pertain for a wagon and it’s tarp to become separated.  ...............

 

Any wagon arriving with a sheeted load and then being forwarded with a different category of goods that didn't need sheeting would naturally lose whatever sheet it arrived with : it wouldn't be folded neatly, placed carefully in a corner of the wagon and have ten (?) tons of sugar beet chucked on top !