10800 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) This query relates to a layout build recently started elsewhere on the forum: This is based on a small ex-Midi secondary line in the 1950s. A year ago I knew nothing about French signalling, now I know a bit more - I'm not sure whether that is a good thing! There are some articles on the internet including a Wikipedia page, and the current issue of the FRS magazine has a useful summary of the principles. There is also a Signalling Paper (No.13) available from the Signalling Record Society. So I reviewed those, hummed and haaaad quite a bit, and came up with the following plan: Some context: Running line top left to bottom right, only half the station is on-scene, platform lines are bidirectional. Short sidings lower left, industrial siding along the back. Level crossing left of the station (oblique, the industrial siding then runs along the road). I determined that I didn't need any station signals for the other direction because it's all off-scene. Also, any 'disques rouges' or 'sémaphores' would be some distance away, also off scene. So I think I only need carrés for the two platform roads, protecting both the loop closure and (?) the level crossing. To be more interesting they could also carry 'avertissements' assuming there is a trailing junction or block boundary somewhere off to the left. And then two carrés violets at the exits from the sidings to protect the running lines. There would be no trap points but I should include some representation of 'derailleurs'. How am I doing? Have I missed anything, e.g. fixed downward chevron sign on the approach to the station (or would that be further out); or another carré close to the level crossing coming from the left? I also assume no signal box, on scene at least, but maybe a ground frame on the platform and a diligent chef de gare! I don't recall seeing much signalling on French layouts, certainly not mechanical - maybe there's reason for that! Hopefully there's someone out there who knows a lot more about this than me! The actual signals would come from http://www.rotomagus.com/html/train/page carre po.htm , or at least when they reopen for business in a few days. Edited January 2, 2020 by 10800 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted January 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 2, 2020 I don’t know quite how much signalling protection is given in France for level crossings, but I think it’s very doubtful carres are used for this purpose? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sncf231e Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 3 hours ago, 10800 said: I don't recall seeing much signalling on French layouts, certainly not mechanical - maybe there's reason for that! Hopefully there's someone out there who knows a lot more about this than me! I do not know anything about French signalling, but I do know that it certainly is and was part of the French model railway hobby. Already in the late twenties and thirties Marescot and Fournereau made a large number of different scale mechanical signals (0 gauge) like this box of remakes that I have shows: Regards Fred 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted January 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) Here’s a bit about level crossings: https://trainconsultant.com/2019/11/07/le-passage-a-niveau-la-guerre-de-cent-ans-des- automobilistes/ The same person gives quite good examples of the preunification signalling, with diagrams shewing applications. You’ll note it’s before the era you’re interested in, but generally they could be updated with the more recent standard mechanical types used the same way. You may also pick out the particular Midi types, using vanes. These lasted into SNCF days, I can remember seeing the glass box types along an electrified line. I’ll try and dig out a link for these tomorrow. https://trainconsultant.com/2019/08/11/la-signalisation-des-anciennes-compagnies-francaises-code-de-1885/ Edited January 2, 2020 by Northroader 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 Thanks both - I'll read the references properly tomorrow. I don't think I need a carré specifically for left-right traffic to protect the level crossing. It's weird to us in the UK that French signalling relates more to the speed you can go rather than whether the line ahead is clear. They don't have the positive 'line clear' indication that we are familiar with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Not sure you'd have 'Carré Violet' in the situation shown. What you might get, set back a bit, are some 'G', 'Garage' or 'Garage Franc boards, indicating fouling points. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 Thanks Brian. You're probably correct about the need for the Carré Violet for the two short sidings as these may be controlled simply by verbal instruction from the chef de gare. A 'G' board might be appropriate though. As for the long siding, which trundles off scene into the hinterland, that would be a private siding, gated near the LC, so that would need something like a Carré Violet to protect the running line I would have thought? In the current FRS magazine there is a signalling diagram (for a somewhat more important station however) which has Violets all over the place in the same situations that we would use ground signals, as well as for leaving yards etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 1 hour ago, 10800 said: Thanks Brian. You're probably correct about the need for the Carré Violet for the two short sidings as these may be controlled simply by verbal instruction from the chef de gare. A 'G' board might be appropriate though. As for the long siding, which trundles off scene into the hinterland, that would be a private siding, gated near the LC, so that would need something like a Carré Violet to protect the running line I would have thought? In the current FRS magazine there is a signalling diagram (for a somewhat more important station however) which has Violets all over the place in the same situations that we would use ground signals, as well as for leaving yards etc. I think the running line would be protected by use of a 'deraileur'. I don't know what material you have on SNCF signalling, but I have a 'bookazine' from the Revue Generale des Chemins du Fer, which has some useful illustrations. Would a scan be of use? On 22/12/2019 at 14:35, DLT said: Was it Dennis Allenden? He built really beautiful and quirky French locos, but they were 7mm scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 Hi Brian I have a useful article in the current FRS magazine, the Signalling Record Society Paper No.13 by Richard Lemon (1996 but still available to members and non-members), and some internet downloads including a Wikipedia article. The FRS article has a nice photo of a derailleur. A scan of that publication would be most useful, thank you - I'll send you a PM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted January 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) Here’s a link to a thread where the MIDI signals get a mention. There’s two types, signaux banjo, and signaux PD, both having the idea of having electric operation giving a mechanical aspect, using lightweight vanes moved magnetically, placed in a weatherproof case, metal for the banjo, glass for the PD. The banjo is a copy of the American Hall system, the PD is a homegrown version. Normally used as blocksignals, with the shape of the case for the banjo showing function. The round is a disque rouge, equivalent in British practice to a combined distant and home signal, giving advance protection to the station at the end of the block, and the square being a semaphore, equivalent to the British starter signal, allowing entrance to the next section. Perhaps you use a PD in place of the carre where the double line becomes single line? https://www.cheminots.net/forum/topic/22272-le-disque-et-ses-subtilités/page/9/ Edited January 3, 2020 by Northroader 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 3, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2020 I like to see signals on a layout. But in this case, I suspect that the right answer is none. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 Hi Joseph So if you have a double track coming in from the right, closing into a single track, what is protecting that hazard? Or other hazards off scene to the left? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) On 03/01/2020 at 23:41, 10800 said: Hi Joseph So if you have a double track coming in from the right, closing into a single track, what is protecting that hazard? Or other hazards off scene to the left? Hi Rod Assuming that the double track is the passing loop - in your case set up for voie-directe, where trains use the main line through the station unless crossing, rather than voie-gauche where trains normally use the left hand side of the crossing - it would depend on how busy the line was. For a lightly used single track line worked under SNCF's VUSS (Voie Unique Signalisation Simplifée) regime (as well as most local light railways ), there would be no mechanical signalling at all. All trains would stop in the station and departure would be authorised personally by the Chef (and the Chef alone!) having established that the section ahead was clear. That used to be established by a formal exchange of telephone messages but, in recent years, on passenger carrying lines, has been replaced by the CAPI system (Cantonnement Assisté Par Informatique) where adapted PCs connected to the telephone line act as recording block instruments. Instead of a disque rouge, there would be a fixed sign GARE commanding a train to stop at the entry to the station, indicated by a downward pointing chevron. In your case I think this would be just before the points for the private siding. A somewhat busier station, or one where not all trains stopped, might have simply been protected by a disque rouge at an appropriate distance before the station in each direction. If the disque was closed a train would be commanded to stop at the entry to the station but also to slow down to a "stop on sight" speed before reaching a fixed limit of protection some distance before the entrance to the station. Above that level, signalling gets more complex with the addition of a sémaphore and possibly one or more carrées to the basic disque in each direction (the names and light indications remain the same for CLS as for mechanical signalling. However, I doubt whether shunting within such a small station would involve a carré violet. It's more likely that the two disques would be closed to protect the station during shunting operations with the keys to open the derailers and the padlocks on the local point levers for the points connecting the sdings with the running lines released by the interlocking. Normal French practice- at least at smaller stations and yards- was to protect the area where shunting was taking place from other train movements and then avoid having any signals that needed to be operated during manœuvres. If you have a level crossing within the station limits it might well be protected on the station side by a guidon d'arrêt a rather odd signal which is an absolute stop when showing closed (a red mechanical or lit bar) but with no clear indication as it is deemed not to exist when open. It's the fixed equivalent to a red flag hand signal and, among other things, allows shunting up to a level crossing which can therefore remain open to road traffic. They were often operated by the person in charge of the shunting by a push button. The only place where I've ever seen a carré protecting a level crossing was at Lucay-le-Male, at that time the southern terminus of the Blanc-Argent line (which despite being metre gauge is NOT a light railway) The day I was there in 2006, the sole duty of the Chef du Gare - she didn't sell tickets- before the arrival of SNCF's morning autorail was to remotely wind down the barriers of the nearby level crossing a hundred metres or so up the line before openng a normally closed carré a further hundred metres or so further on. Once the autorail had arrived, she then raised the barriers and closed the carré . Late in the afternoon, when the almost brand new autorail was ready to depart, she had only to establish that the section to Valencay was clear, lower the barrier, wave the train off and raise it again. Quel productivité and with Lucay-le-Male so frantically busy I can see why the autorail of the preserved Train du Bas Berry (which was why I was in the area) had to to stop a hundred metres or more before the other end of the station, rather than bening allowed into its other (and completely empty) platform road. The only passenger to arrive on the almost brand new SNCF autorail was a British enthusiast living in Paris who'd also come to visit the then fairly newly opened Train du Bas Berry and he was also the only passenger for its return run. I only mention this because the BA was affiliated to the PO who may well therefore have used carrés to protect level crossings at the entrance to other stations. Needless to say, the section of the BA from Lucay-le-Male to Valencay closed a few years later and Valencay is now its southern terminus. The good news is that, as of last August, it is now also the northern terminus of the Train du Bas Berry and SABA, the dynamic preservation group who run it, are currently rebuilding the long disused tracks on their side of the station so we may see steam trains operating there again. Edited March 9, 2020 by Pacific231G 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 That's very helpful and interesting David, many thanks. Rightly or wrongly I've acquired the kits for the two carrés/avertissements shown in my diagram, and one carré violet for the industrial siding. All I can say is that it will be fun to do, and may be justified by the imagined hazards beyond the layout and the unusual intensity of traffic! It could be that I will be challenged as to their authenticity when the layout is exhibited, in which case I will be pleased to learn more; but it is all very complex (and dare I say very French) and possibly why you rarely see mechanical signals on French layouts! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 On 03/01/2020 at 17:41, Northroader said: Here’s a link to a thread where the MIDI signals get a mention. There’s two types, signaux banjo, and signaux PD, both having the idea of having electric operation giving a mechanical aspect, using lightweight vanes moved magnetically, placed in a weatherproof case, metal for the banjo, glass for the PD. The banjo is a copy of the American Hall system, the PD is a homegrown version. Normally used as blocksignals, with the shape of the case for the banjo showing function. The round is a disque rouge, equivalent in British practice to a combined distant and home signal, giving advance protection to the station at the end of the block, and the square being a semaphore, equivalent to the British starter signal, allowing entrance to the next section. Perhaps you use a PD in place of the carre where the double line becomes single line? https://www.cheminots.net/forum/topic/22272-le-disque-et-ses-subtilités/page/9/ Hi Northroader I've been looking at my copy of volume 2 of Daniel Wurmser's encyclopaedic Signaux Mécaniques which covers the PO and Midi. The original Banjos from 1901 and the later and vastly more numerous PD-Paul et Ducousso- signals that superceded them (on new installations from 1906 and entirely by 1937) were only ever used on the Midi's principal double track main lines so probably not approriate for Rod's layout. They seem to have been the first fully automatic block system to be used on France's national network (The PLM trialled the Hall system for a few years but in semi-automatic installations operating conventional mechanical signals and the Paris Metro used it with CLS) The Midi's installations were unusual for France, where apart fronm on the PLM, open blocks were the norm. With this system the signals were normally closed and only opened ahead of an approaching train if the line was clear. Apparently this wasn't a different signalling philosophy but was to save on batteries (the signals had to fail safe if their power failed so required a steady current to open and keep them open) Though they were opened electrically they were orignally illuminated by oil lamps, The last of them didn't disappear until 1984 so they had a long life. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, 10800 said: That's very helpful and interesting David, many thanks. Rightly or wrongly I've acquired the kits for the two carrés/avertissements shown in my diagram, and one carré violet for the industrial siding. All I can say is that it will be fun to do, and may be justified by the imagined hazards beyond the layout and the unusual intensity of traffic! It could be that I will be challenged as to their authenticity when the layout is exhibited, in which case I will be pleased to learn more; but it is all very complex (and dare I say very French) and possibly why you rarely see mechanical signals on French layouts! You'll be fine. A carré for each line is perfectly possible while the avertissements could refer to the (offstage) sémaphore as two of them did at Coutances (the plan in the December FRS Journal) and could be on the same lever (Unlike in Britain you can have a clear avertissement and a closed carré together without ambiguity (and only the most restrictive light indication would appear) The Cv would enable a complete goods train to emerge from the private siding and, though its white light when open only clears a movement onto the principal line marche à vue, once it reaches the open sémaphore such a train can proceed voie libre. Because it only refers to a possible slow speed movement from a siding, a Cv doesn't have an avertissement. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted March 10, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2020 On 03/01/2020 at 23:41, 10800 said: Hi Joseph So if you have a double track coming in from the right, closing into a single track, what is protecting that hazard? Or other hazards off scene to the left? Sorry, only just seen this question. A lot of secondary routes in France (and elsewhere in Europe) did not have signals. All run by the stationmasters with staff and ticket. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted March 10, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2020 I don’t think Continental lines by and large used the staff and ticket system. It was the responsibility of the person in charge of traffic movements at the station to determine whether the next block was clear and allow the train to proceed. There wasn’t anything given or shown to the driver to reassure him before proceeding. On the question of the MIDI style automatic signals, the layout isn’t mainline, but as it is electrified, so I felt a little bit more elaboration could be permissible. It’s nice to have a few French signals scattered around to add to the scene, even if we know there should be only be a disque rouge a mile off down the track? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 4 hours ago, Northroader said: I don’t think Continental lines by and large used the staff and ticket system. It was the responsibility of the person in charge of traffic movements at the station to determine whether the next block was clear and allow the train to proceed. There wasn’t anything given or shown to the driver to reassure him before proceeding. On the question of the MIDI style automatic signals, the layout isn’t mainline, but as it is electrified, so I felt a little bit more elaboration could be permissible. It’s nice to have a few French signals scattered around to add to the scene, even if we know there should be only be a disque rouge a mile off down the track? No they didn't (though a few French railways did use batons pilote i.e staffs) The basic system for single track lines was telegraph, later telephone, block, and as you say, it was the responsibility of the person in charge to determine the state of the block ahead and give the order to proceed. In France (and elsewhere as well) the Chef de Service could, on double track lines, delegate this to a suitably qualified representative person but on single track lines under SNCF's regulations the Chef has to give this order in person. That should have avoided the sort of misunderstanding that led to the 1874 Norwich Thorpe disaster especially if block instruments were also in use and even a token system only guarantees safety if crews check they actually have the right token (which they din't at Abermule in 1921) If you want signals in a single track passing station there's not reason not to have them and any such with the sort of service our model layouts tend to have would certainly be signalled with carrés and sémaphores as well as the off stage disques rouge (though you probably don't require the permanently staffed signal box that such a station would require in the UK) . The big difference is that the same station, if assumed to be much quieter, doesn't need to have any visible signals so a model is not incomplete without them. In general French signalling required far fewer actual signals than would its British equivalent. For example, the CF de l'Est's Paris-Bastille, which was a five platform terminus with a small three road sub-shed and an intense commuter service, was controlled until it closed at the end of 1969 by a 31 lever Saxby signal box. Marylebone, with four platforms to handle and a few more sidings, had a 103 lever box. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 Received today a copy of Loco-Revue Hors Serie 69 from last October entitled 'La Signalisation du Reseau' which looks very useful. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 I am not sure that you need any signalling. On secondary lines timetable block was used with trains proceeding from station to station in accordance with what the working book said, the actual departures being authorised by the display of a green baton by the chef de gare. He (or she) would also issue drivers with instructions to vary from the timetable if that became necessary (because of late running, for example). Ex-PLM lines often had portable carrés, a small battery(?) box with an equally small carré mounted above it, the ensemble being placed on the platform edge facing the driver at the desired stopping point. I am not sure whether they were used on ex-Midi lines or not and I haven't seen them used in the north of France. Timetable block may seem insecure compared with the arrangements for single lines in the UK, but it was cheap and worked well. I have seen no evidence to suggest that it facilitated any greater number of accidents in practice than the "more secure" British systems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, bécasse said: I am not sure that you need any signalling. On secondary lines timetable block was used with trains proceeding from station to station in accordance with what the working book said, the actual departures being authorised by the display of a green baton by the chef de gare. He (or she) would also issue drivers with instructions to vary from the timetable if that became necessary (because of late running, for example). Ex-PLM lines often had portable carrés, a small battery(?) box with an equally small carré mounted above it, the ensemble being placed on the platform edge facing the driver at the desired stopping point. I am not sure whether they were used on ex-Midi lines or not and I haven't seen them used in the north of France. Timetable block may seem insecure compared with the arrangements for single lines in the UK, but it was cheap and worked well. I have seen no evidence to suggest that it facilitated any greater number of accidents in practice than the "more secure" British systems. Hi Bécasse Fixed signals generally were used on single track lines of d'Interet General (those considered part of the national rail network) but at each location were far less in number than would have been found in Britain. They could be as little as just a disque some distance out controlled from the station protecting a station (or a private siding etc.) Old photos of secondary lines generally show carrés in use at the exits to stations but if these were being worked by telegraph/telephone block there wouldn't be a Semaphore as well. I have seen the portable carrées you mention in use in the West of France and they generally mark the point where a train authorised to enter a station is required to stop, often behind another short train such as an autorail, and of course that it can't be moved forward until the portable carrée is removed. The working timetable with crossings was used on its own before the telegraph (later telephone) became widely available and could be reverted to if the telegraph was out of order. Even with the telegraph (or telephone) the timetable and the order of trains on single track lines had to be strictly observed and any additional trains required a written order from higher authority that had to be passed on to every relevant station and its reception confirmed back before it could be run, Working timetables did include trains faciltatif ('runs as required' in British parlance) and these could be authorised by the station master at the head of a single track line. VUSS, with mechanical signals replaced by fixed signs, was introduced by the CF de l'Etat in the 1930s and adopted by SNCF. With some exceptions it is limited to no more than fourteen movements (the total for both directions combined) each day. VUSS lines were usually operated under cantonnement téléphonique with strict procedures but no actual block instruments until a disastrous head on collision at Flaujac in 1985 led to the addition of the CAPI system mentoned above. Even where signals were installed, lines were still often operated by telephone block. Elsewhere block instruments were used in the régime known as Block Manual Voie Unique (BMVU) where a single line section could only be open in one direction *. Even this was not foolproof so has been augmented by CAPI pending conversion to the colour light signalled Block Automatique par Permissivité Restreinte (BAPR). Though the presence or otherwise of block instruments is invisible, their presence would require there to be a sémaphore block signal. On lines d'Intêret Local, roughly equivalent to light railways, fixed signals were rare and generally confined to places where they joined or crossed lines of the national network. Many of these lines didn't have fully staffed stations so operation was by srict observance of the timetable, which could cause long delays if a train due to be passed was late (though an omnibus telephone line and a line controller could obviate this) However, with typical services of two to four trains a day this was less of a problem than it would have been on busier lines. For the PO/Midi station that Rod is contemplating I think signalling would be required and the installation he has planned looks credible. *There are modellers in France trying to come up with a working model of a BMVU instrument but they are more complicated than a simple three position block instrument. Things have to happen in sequence between the two instruments so relays or their electronic equivalents are involved. Edited March 12, 2020 by Pacific231G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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