New 10ft X 5ft Layout, Inspiration and DCC or not to DCC?

[Delorean1984]

Hey guys.

 

My very early stages of building my layout has just started. Bought a few locos already which I have few questions about which I'll come to shortly.

 

Firstly I've got a couple of ideas for my 10x5 layout. I'm gonna have an operating well in middle, I was thinking of 5x2.5ft well, what do you guys think to this? Anyone else have a 10x5 layout they care to show their photos of?

 

Now problem I think I've got now is to decide if to go DCC or DC route. The two locos I've just got off eBay, Virgin class 90 and Virgin HST take are I believe non DCC, as you know cheaper than there DCC counterpart's. How easy is it to convert these to DCC and future purchases? I've heard the Hornby class 90 can't be converted due to the pantograph, I might be wrong though.

 

So basically this is the time I should make a decision which direction I should go but wanted to see what you guys thought. Oh can DC locos run on DCC layout or is it DCC locos can safely run on DC layout?

[Zomboid]

DCC or just DC is a personal preference thing as much as anything, there's really not a generically correct answer.

 

Personally I would advise anyone starting from scratch to go with DCC. The additional functionality it offers over analogue control is significant (multiple loco control, better slow speed performance, decent sound available for diesel & electric), and the layout wiring can be to a vastly simpler design (not necessarily less volume of wire though). The locos are more expensive, and some older DC models might be very challenging to equip with a decoder, but if you don't have a million locos to convert then it's worth the extra expense.

 

You can run DCC locos on DC provided they're programmed to do so. My limited experience of that made it seem to be a worst of both worlds way to do things though.

 

As for what to do with 10 x 5, I'm guessing you want to do the WCML if you've got a Virgin 90? That's going to be a squeeze!

[Pete the Elaner]

I agree with the above.

 

DCC is a matter of personal preference. Features aside, the biggest difference is the feel of how to control things. I was a bit sceptical about DCC so started with a metre of track, a cheap controller & a couple of locos which I chipped. I was convinced it was right for me after about 10 minutes. You may not get the same result though.

Maybe you could try it for yourself at an exhibition or local club. Where are you?

 

DC locos can run on some DCC systems. This is achieved by biasing the DCC signal so the motor tries to alternate between moving forwards & backwards very quickly, favouring forwards, so it is not recommended & for this reason, some systems do not support this.

 

Your class 90 can be converted. I have converted some of my Hornby 86s. You will need to do some soldering though.

[Delorean1984]

8 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

DCC or just DC is a personal preference thing as much as anything, there's really not a generically correct answer.

 

Personally I would advise anyone starting from scratch to go with DCC. The additional functionality it offers over analogue control is significant (multiple loco control, better slow speed performance, decent sound available for diesel & electric), and the layout wiring can be to a vastly simpler design (not necessarily less volume of wire though). The locos are more expensive, and some older DC models might be very challenging to equip with a decoder, but if you don't have a million locos to convert then it's worth the extra expense.

 

You can run DCC locos on DC provided they're programmed to do so. My limited experience of that made it seem to be a worst of both worlds way to do things though.

 

As for what to do with 10 x 5, I'm guessing you want to do the WCML if you've got a Virgin 90? That's going to be a squeeze!

Many thanks for the reply.

 

I'm gonna have to have a good think about this and not buy anymore locos until I've decided. I know the HST is quite easy to convert but do you know if the class 90 is?

 

Even at 10x5 it's a squeeze? The theme I was thinking was a 90s theme rather than specific route like wcml. The scenery I was thinking at the moment until I change my mind was a town/sea or city/sea theme set in the 90s. I do quite like locos and the 90s era (basically the era I grew up with). Any other ideas for a 90s theme?

[Delorean1984]

1 minute ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I agree with the above.

 

DCC is a matter of personal preference. Features aside, the biggest difference is the feel of how to control things. I was a bit sceptical about DCC so started with a metre of track, a cheap controller & a couple of locos which I chipped. I was convinced it was right for me after about 10 minutes. You may not get the same result though.

Maybe you could try it for yourself at an exhibition or local club. Where are you?

 

DC locos can run on some DCC systems. This is achieved by biasing the DCC signal so the motor tries to alternate between moving forwards & backwards very quickly, favouring forwards, so it is not recommended & for this reason, some systems do not support this.

 

Your class 90 can be converted. I have converted some of my Hornby 86s. You will need to do some soldering though.

 

I'm based in Scarborough, North Yorkshire. I think there is a club here and the York show won't be too far away now. I think DCC is the right way to go, is eBay the best place to look for chipped DCC locos or is there anywhere else you recommend? I'm open to going second hand or new.

 

I feel trying to force a DC loco on DCC track doesn't sound great and I'm pretty confident I can do the soldering. How easy was it to do the 90?

 

I think I need to stop buying locos I like look of (which is a shame as that's part of the fun and have big choice) and buy DCC ones or DCC ready ones.

[Pete the Elaner]

I visited the Pickering show last year, but that was in the summer. It was run by the Scarborough club though, so there is one fairly close to you. York is Easter I think.

 

I am quite comfortable with a soldering iron & had no trouble at all with my 86 (apart from choosing a bad decoder). The 90 has similar connections, pickups & plenty of space inside the body.

 

I have never bought a loco from eBay. You can get some good deals but there are some rogues on there too. Somebody on here bought a 'tested & running' loco recently & when it arrived, it had no brushes. They don't just fall out.

A good model shop will give good advice & a guarantee. The big online retailers give good service (I have returned a faulty loco to Hattons before & they dealt with it very well). A good smaller retailer will probably run the loco in front of you. I don't know N Yorks very well at all so can't provide any local information.

 

Regarding the layout, a reply suggested that your models infer a WCML based layout. Is this what you want? My home layout is a scale model of a WCML location, so you may want to take a look. I hope it is not exactly what you want to achieve  but may give you some ideas. There is a link to it in my signature below.

[Zomboid]

12 minutes ago, Delorean1984 said:

Even at 10x5 it's a squeeze? The theme I was thinking was a 90s theme rather than specific route like wcml. The scenery I was thinking at the moment until I change my mind was a town/sea or city/sea theme set in the 90s. I do quite like locos and the 90s era (basically the era I grew up with). Any other ideas for a 90s theme?

10 x 5 seems quite big until you put a train on it. In OO a full length 2+8 HST will be close to 10 feet long. So obviously you'll be looking at reduced length trains if you want them to be able to move (assuming the power car could actually shift it anyway). Wouldn't actually be a problem for me, but you might not be happy with that.

 

So before you buy many more trains, what do you want your layout to do? A traditional roundy with a station and storage sidings? A freight facility? A DMU cleaning shed? Integrated scalextric? Once you've got a solid idea of what you want to build, you'll know which trains you need for realism and which trains will invoke rule 1.

 

It's also absolutely fine to have an "anything goes" approach if you want to. I'm sure even the most rivet counterish of us will have some models that are entirely inappropriate for the layout but get a run because "I just like it".

[DCB]

10 X 5 is a nice space for a branch line.  Our branch line terminus is 7ft long from the outermost point to buffers and takes a 4 coach rake of 57ft coaches and can take locos up to a 2251 class 0-6-0 tender loco (or a 4F whatever that is) .  add a nice 2ft radius curve and that takes up one side of the 10X5.   CJ Feezer did a lot of 6X4 and 8X4 layouts in 60 plans for small railways etc which work nicely when expanded to 10X5.  2ft 6" is OK for a well but bit of a squeeze for 2 to pass.

DC or DCC, well make sure it works before drilling hundreds of holes for DCC droppers. Moving track with droppers fitted is a real pain.  I would wire it for  DC and use DCC on it, a 1 amp remote cut out should protect the points etc from overloads.   You can have it up and running quickly and de bug it.  Longer term if space is tight you can cram more in with DC as you can climb steeper gradients with lead instead of decoders and the loss of the draggy tender pickups but DCC has the functionality of lights and you can easily arrange head on collisions at full speed to keep the grand kids interested.  Someone may even come up with convincing sound sometime in the future but I'm not holding my breath. 

[jpendle]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

10 X 5 is a nice space for a branch line.  Our branch line terminus is 7ft long from the outermost point to buffers and takes a 4 coach rake of 57ft coaches and can take locos up to a 2251 class 0-6-0 tender loco (or a 4F whatever that is) .  add a nice 2ft radius curve and that takes up one side of the 10X5.   CJ Feezer did a lot of 6X4 and 8X4 layouts in 60 plans for small railways etc which work nicely when expanded to 10X5.  2ft 6" is OK for a well but bit of a squeeze for 2 to pass.

DC or DCC, well make sure it works before drilling hundreds of holes for DCC droppers. Moving track with droppers fitted is a real pain.  I would wire it for  DC and use DCC on it, a 1 amp remote cut out should protect the points etc from overloads.   You can have it up and running quickly and de bug it.  Longer term if space is tight you can cram more in with DC as you can climb steeper gradients with lead instead of decoders and the loss of the draggy tender pickups but DCC has the functionality of lights and you can easily arrange head on collisions at full speed to keep the grand kids interested.  Someone may even come up with convincing sound sometime in the future but I'm not holding my breath. 

To paraphrase, David is saying that he dislikes DCC intensely and he wouldn't recommend it to his worst enemy

 

I have a different view and I think that if you are just starting out then DCC is a very good choice. On a 10' x 5' layout you won't need "hundreds of droppers" from the tracks, if you had just two ovals of track (I know that's too simple) then you could use just two droppers and you would need the same for DC in any case.

 

If you do choose DCC don't buy a Roco Z21 controller because I told you so or a Gaugemaster (rebadged MRC) Prodigy controller because 'Fred' told you so. DCC controllers and systems come in many different flavours and the best idea is to go to a decent shop or to a good show and ask to see different kinds of DCC systems in use.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[peach james]

On a 10x5 layout, you can get away with (*) a single set of feeders per loop almost 100% certainly.

 

The track complexity will determine if you need more than that.  Using Electrofrog turnouts means that you would need more feeds/wiring, but will work better.  The big advantage of DCC is that on something like a 10x5 layout, all you need is an inside and an outside rail supply, and then all you have to do is figure if the rail is inside, or outside.  And if you are reasonably sensible, and test in stages, you can do it via "does wire make nasty sound" method :).

 

I know, because that's how the Lego gets wired !

 

(and quite often, a lot bigger than 10x5 loops...)

 

If you intent to _only ever_ have one loco on the layout, then DC is simpler.  As soon as you want to have a 2nd loco _stopped_ on the layout, I think DCC has it hands down.  If you want sound, or lights in coaches, then DCC is for practical purposes, the way to go at this time.

 

Which Controller?  Best advice is above- go try them at a model shop that sells more than one brand.  A 10x5 layout is something which most of the major brands will do just fine on, unless you intend on having 38 sound equipped locos sitting in a TMD in the middle of the whole lot...

 

I'd also recommend finding and joining a local club/group of fellow travelers.  It makes it more fun.

 

(*) it might work, but isn't a great practice...  I'd probably use 2 feeds & a bus from end-end.  I'd also probably just wire turnouts and any other fancyness (building lights) back to a manual panel, not using DCC.  At 5x10, there's not a lot to be gained by running them into DCC _unless_ you intend to computer control, which is a different kettle again !

 

James (on the wet coast of the west coast...)

Edited January 4, 2020 by peach james

[DCB]

2 hours ago, jpendle said:

To paraphrase, David is saying that he dislikes DCC intensely and he wouldn't recommend it to his worst enemy

 

I have a different view and I think that if you are just starting out then DCC is a very good choice. On a 10' x 5' layout you won't need "hundreds of droppers" from the tracks, if you had just two ovals of track (I know that's too simple) then you could use just two droppers and you would need the same for DC in any case.

 

If you do choose DCC don't buy a Roco Z21 controller because I told you so or a Gaugemaster (rebadged MRC) Prodigy controller because 'Fred' told you so. DCC controllers and systems come in many different flavours and the best idea is to go to a decent shop or to a good show and ask to see different kinds of DCC systems in use.

 

Regards,

 

John P

No DCC has its place, it introduces all the problems of outdoor layouts to indoor ones and then some.  You can use two wires to the track without droppers   Most people recommend droppers to every piece of track on DCC.  If you don't rely on fishplates for contact you need 100 holes for 50 pieces of track, I would expect 10X5 layouts  to have around 50 pieces of track. That's a lot of drilling, soldering and testing. Personally I would use DC sectioning for a DCC layout to assist fault finding, and use 1 amp polyswitches in the feeds to reduce the load on fishplates and point blade contacts if your DCC power unit is more than 1 amp (I don't know of any less than 1 amp)

I have doubled the pulling power of Hornby Black 5 and 10XX County by removing the Tender weights, pickups and filling the Decoder space with lead, it means the difference between an open fiddle yard and one with a complete terminus over the top, 33% more layout for the same space.  Its the working out which loco is which and has which code plus 100 plus locos to convert between mine and my friends who use the layout which will stop me going DCC other than for a few selected locos.

 

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

Most people recommend droppers to every piece of track on DCC.  If you don't rely on fishplates for contact you

 

Most of those people aren't recommending droppers to every piece of track because of DCC, but because fishplates are often a poor choice for electrical connections given the random failures that can occur.  Those those people would be recommending those droppers even if they were running plain old DC for long term reliability purposes (and yes, some people experience no problems using fishplates, but that's not the same thing as saying no-one experiences problems).

[Delorean1984]

Many thanks all for your advice and comments. A little bit of the terminology is lost on me being new to hobby but think I'm getting the idea. I'm mainly building this for my daughter who's mad about trains, she's only 2.5 years old at moment so would love this and accuracy to detail and era maybe not as important and probably loosely base it on the 90s. I think she would prefer a oval/circular layout as I think she would find it more fun than a back and forth layout. Sorry should have put this detail in original post.

 

Some people are asking what my thoughts are on the layout front, I've seen these that I like and may go for and adapt for the size I've got. 

 

First one I like is a 9x5 town and sea plan with living near the coast here in Scarborough.

 

http://www.freetrackplans.com/929-Town-to-Sea.php

 

I know it's missing a section but I could plan something in here, any recommendations or plans that I could do here? Maybe a DMU cleaning shed or freight area? If you were building your layout based on this one, would you go DC or DCC? With regards to locos running on layout, probably start with having maybe 4 with maybe 1 or 2 running at one time. Currently got HST and class 90.

 

Second and Third plans I like are very similar but like these too but would I be able to adapt these by removing the extra foot on the width?

 

http://www.freetrackplans.com/836-Bankbridge.php

http://www.freetrackplans.com/817-Nevilles-Green.php

 

Next one I like is this east coast one, looks reasonably simple which I think should start simple on first layout

 

http://www.freetrackplans.com/652-East-Coast.php

 

These are the ones which have taken me fancy at moment and keen to see what your thoughts are regarding DCC and DC on these choices and also if they would be suitable for my size layout.

[Robert Stokes]

An operating well is a good idea, but I would make it longer. You certainly don't need more than 24" at each end and 18" is probably enough. I would therefore make the well somewhere between 6 and 7 feet long. Conversely I don't think it need be 30" wide. You might find that 24" is enough. That would leave you 24" one side for a station and 12" the other side for storage loops under scenery.

 

Why anyone starting today would  not go DCC I cannot imagine. It has many advantages and no disadvantages except cost but it's not too much in the whole cost of the railway.

 

On that size of layout you are going to struggle to fit in long trains. You might find that an engine and four coaches is about the best you can do.

 

Good luck with the project. I hope that you and daughter get as much enjoyment from the hobby as I have.

 

Robert

[ELTEL]

I would suggest you go along to the York Exhibition which is held at York Racecourse over the Easter weekend.

 

A three day exhibition Sat, Sunday  and Monday.

 

Digitrains who are a specialist DCC Digital stockist attend the York exhibition and stock a large range and types of DCC control systems. 

 

I would also agree with others that a visit to you nearest local model railway club to be a good idea.

 

I will be at York Exhibition with my DCC layout Camel Quay so please do come over and say hello.

 

Terry 

[Delorean1984]

4 hours ago, Robert Stokes said:

An operating well is a good idea, but I would make it longer. You certainly don't need more than 24" at each end and 18" is probably enough. I would therefore make the well somewhere between 6 and 7 feet long. Conversely I don't think it need be 30" wide. You might find that 24" is enough. That would leave you 24" one side for a station and 12" the other side for storage loops under scenery.

 

Why anyone starting today would  not go DCC I cannot imagine. It has many advantages and no disadvantages except cost but it's not too much in the whole cost of the railway.

 

On that size of layout you are going to struggle to fit in long trains. You might find that an engine and four coaches is about the best you can do.

 

Good luck with the project. I hope that you and daughter get as much enjoyment from the hobby as I have.

 

Robert

 

That's great, thanks for the tips. I've only got two locos that are non DCC, virgin class 90 and Virgin xc HST, how easy are these to convert?

 

4 hours ago, ELTEL said:

I would suggest you go along to the York Exhibition which is held at York Racecourse over the Easter weekend.

 

A three day exhibition Sat, Sunday  and Monday.

 

Digitrains who are a specialist DCC Digital stockist attend the York exhibition and stock a large range and types of DCC control systems. 

 

I would also agree with others that a visit to you nearest local model railway club to be a good idea.

 

I will be at York Exhibition with my DCC layout Camel Quay so please do come over and say hello.

 

Terry 

 

Yeah will be going to York hopefully, will see if we have local club and pop to a loco model shop we have in Scarborough 

[ELTEL]

I also meant to mention for you to google “UK model shops.co.uk”

 

A wealth of information one of the being a list of all UK Model Railway Clubs.

 

Hope it helps.

 

Terry  

 

[JDW]

On 04/01/2020 at 14:58, Delorean1984 said:

 

That's great, thanks for the tips. I've only got two locos that are non DCC, virgin class 90 and Virgin xc HST, how easy are these to convert?

 

 

Yeah will be going to York hopefully, will see if we have local club and pop to a loco model shop we have in Scarborough 

 

Easy. They are probablt both pretty much the same inside, with a motor bogie and some wires to the pickups.

1) Remove body (takes about 1 minute)

2) Unsolder pick up wires from motor (2 wires) (takes as long as it takes for a drop of solder to melt)

3) Solder two wires from decoder to those wires (takes as long as it takes you to solder a wire)

4) Solder two more wires from decoder to where those wires were attached (as above)

5) Put body back on (thirty seconds)

6) Programme number and go (a minute)

(Paying attention of course to which wire to solder to which place, the instructions will tell you!)

[The Johnster]

The time to make the DC/DCC decision is before you start, for sure.  I have a DC operated BLT with 10 locos, and could not afford the conversion never mind be bothered with the faff of it now.  Only you can make this decision and both systems have pros and cons.  

 

DC pros; lower cost, more space inside locos for ballast.

DC cons; complex wiring unless you have a very simple layout, consequent unreliability and ignoring of KISS principle.

 

DCC pros; sound fx, 12VDC current at all time improves pickup, wireless control with the option of acceleration and braking fx.  Layout wiring simpler.

DCC cons; higher cost, lack of space for equipment in smaller locos (esp. loudspeackers), lack of ballast space for improving traction, sensitivity to to pickup issues.  

 

Worth mentioning that Hornby are proposing to introduce a DC system using Bluetooth to control a layout from a smartphone if you have to have wireless control but don't want DCC.  It is possible that this sort of approach may be further developed in the future which, along with better battery technology allowing on board power supplies on locos, might render current DCC obsolete, and you don't want to replace your stock or control gear every few years like you do with your phone, tv, or computer.

[Izzy]

I would not want a well less than 30” wide. This is the width of a normal house doorway. Could you easily turn around in less width without knocking/catching something with your arms/elbows.? I am thinking about anything on the adjacent baseboards.

 

Izzy

[Robert Stokes]

The gap down the middle of my shed between the two sides of the layout is 68cm (a fraction under 27") and I have never had any trouble with it. I can get past visitors back to back with no bother.

 

I can accept that 24" may be a little too narrow, but 27" should present no problem. Bear in mind that doorways are made wide enough for wheelchairs, prams and pushchairs, and not least for carrying through large furniture items.

 

Robert

[Flying Pig]

On 04/01/2020 at 09:10, Delorean1984 said:

Next one I like is this east coast one, looks reasonably simple which I think should start simple on first layout

 

http://www.freetrackplans.com/652-East-Coast.php

 

I think I like this one best - as you say, it's simple but it can accommodate a variety of trains and realistic movements.  One thing to note though is that the platforms are very short, only about two coaches and a loco. Can you try laying it out in Anyrail to see how much longer you can make them in your space?

 

The loco depot bottom right needs a longer reception line, or a headshunt, so that locos can move about it without fouling the main line. A crossover between the main lines next to it would be useful.

 

[Pete the Elaner]

On 04/01/2020 at 09:10, Delorean1984 said:

Many thanks all for your advice and comments. A little bit of the terminology is lost on me being new to hobby but think I'm getting the idea. I'm mainly building this for my daughter who's mad about trains, she's only 2.5 years old at moment so would love this and accuracy to detail and era maybe not as important and probably loosely base it on the 90s. I think she would prefer a oval/circular layout as I think she would find it more fun than a back and forth layout. Sorry should have put this detail in original post.

 

 

 

Enthusiasm drops steadily as you build the layout until you run a train for the first time. This will be a major boost for both you & your daughter, so it needs to be quick & easy to build.

Another disadvantage with a more complex layout is you will learn from it. You will form a different option for what you like & dislike, what you have done well & not so well. A big layout will probably leave you wanting to re-do the first bits again. A small one allows you to re-start it & you'll be happy to do so because you'll have the confidence of having done it before.

 

I have checked your plans & I think they are all too complicated. The first one has a reverse loop, which would make me avoid it. A double track line with a station & maybe a few sidings around the other side is what I would start with. Then you can decide if you want to add some buildings or more sidings elsewhere.

 

I still don't know what to advise re DCvDCC, but for the latter your daughter will need to read numbers. If she can't then teaching her this may be a good or bad thing depending on your point of view.

[jpendle]

38 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I still don't know what to advise re DCvDCC, but for the latter your daughter will need to read numbers. If she can't then teaching her this may be a good or bad thing depending on your point of view.

 

Surely this depends on the DCC system? On my Z21 you just point at a picture of the loco on your phone/tablet and then drive it.

 

John P

[Pete the Elaner]

41 minutes ago, jpendle said:

 

Surely this depends on the DCC system? On my Z21 you just point at a picture of the loco on your phone/tablet and then drive it.

 

John P

Sounds like an ECoS. I have not used one so I forget about less common (perhaps better? ones like these) but reading numbers is not like reading a novel so I doubt this will be a major consideration anyway.