Yellow ends?

[rogerzilla]

I'm sure this is buried in another topic but the search didn't throw anything up.  Are yellow ends actually mandatory now?  Some of the new Class 80x liveries don't have them, unless they're just "unveiling" liveries and the yellow is painted on before service.

 

Trains look better without then, they're a uniquely British thing that everyone else in the world does without but, given the recent fatalities of NR staff, I'm surprised that anything reducing the visibility of approaching trains is even countenanced.

[Pete the Elaner]

No. Yellow ends are no longer mandatory where high intensity headlights are used.

But since high intensity headlights have been around for a while, it begs the question as to why only new stock does not have yellow ends. The likes pf Voyagers & Pendolinos have high intensity headlights but these have kept their yellow ends when being repainted.

 

I agree with the point about anything increasing visibility. Surely HI headlights & yellow ends would be better than one or the other?

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

This topic has been done to death several times now, all ending in large arguments.

 

Yellow Ends are no longer mandatory only if the headlights on a train conform to a standard which was released a couple of years ago (can't remember when and can't remember the number), hence why older trains still have yellow ends as their headlights are not compliant.

 

Simon

[david.hill64]

The rolling stock TSI (technical standard for interoperability) requires a standard of headlights but not yellow ends. As the TSI is mandated by EU law it supersedes national standards.  EU countries are not permitted to deviate without a derogation from the European Commission. RSSB in its guidance note states that there must be a risk assessment if yellow is not used as an additional safety measure, but cannot force the issue. 

[Boris]

I had a yellow end once, the doctir gave me a cream for it and its the right colour again.

[Wickham Green]

Presumably Boris - that's the other Boris - is busy writing a fudge that'll replace the TSI once he takes out of the EU at the end of the month .............. when he's not too busy sunning himself in the Caribbean. 

[david.hill64]

38 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Presumably Boris - that's the other Boris - is busy writing a fudge that'll replace the TSI once he takes out of the EU at the end of the month .............. when he's not too busy sunning himself in the Caribbean. 

Unlikely and it wouldn’t be sensible to abandon an integrated set of standards too quickly. The short term exception in my view would be the electrification clearances in the Energy TSI. Reverting to the proven safe BR standard would knock hundreds of millions off the cost of electrification. 

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

Presumably Boris - that's the other Boris - is busy writing a fudge that'll replace the TSI once he takes out of the EU at the end of the month .............. when he's not too busy sunning himself in the Caribbean. 

Without wanting to get into the politics, I think the idea is that all EU law will be put into UK law for day 1 (whatever isn't already there), and then changes can subsequently be made as they see fit. So the TSI will apply until the UK government comes up with a replacement or specifically repeals it.

[pstanton]

Main problem is the UK will be frozen out of the consultation as standards are reviewed; we will have no influence. Changes will happen and we will fall out of synchronisation and suffer in tendering if we cannot guarantee compliance with relevant standards.  For instance the new Middle East railways will be constructed to conform to European Train Control System standards: "British" standards will not be controlled to be in sync!

[DY444]

7 minutes ago, pstanton said:

Main problem is the UK will be frozen out of the consultation as standards are reviewed; we will have no influence. Changes will happen and we will fall out of synchronisation and suffer in tendering if we cannot guarantee compliance with relevant standards.  For instance the new Middle East railways will be constructed to conform to European Train Control System standards: "British" standards will not be controlled to be in sync!

 

As it appears the most recent increase in ole clearances went through without anyone in the UK noticing until it was too late then whether we have any influence or not seems a moot point. 

[rogerzilla]

I wonder why GWR persist with yellow ends on their Class 800s when other operators don't?  Yellow and dark green isn't the best look.

[Hesperus]

Perhaps to keep the same colour scheme across all their stock but can you imagine how well camoflaged they would be without it? 

[Ken.W]

49 minutes ago, Hesperus said:

Perhaps to keep the same colour scheme across all their stock but can you imagine how well camoflaged they would be without it? 

 

6 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

RSSB in its guidance note states that there must be a risk assessment if yellow is not used as an additional safety measure, but cannot force the issue. 

 

And perhaps there's several senior GWR managers who right now, are highly relieved to not be trying to explain that risk assessment to a coroner.

[Ken.W]

Those high intensity headlights, in my view, can actually increase the hazards.

 

Yes, you may see the train coming towards you with one of these HI lights from miles off, but...

the driver of the train in the opposite direction approaching from behind can't see you!

 

I did have a near-miss incident in such circumstances when the Voyagers were new, before their headlights had to be toned down.

On the Up Fast, with a Voyager approaching on the Down Fast, and in clear daylight.

As the voyager passes, I'm then able to see a whole gang of Pway men standing between the Up Fast and Up Slow, at 125mph and about two coach lengths ahead!!!

 

I've also had incidences of having difficulty seeing to stop correctly in a platform in the dark, due to something with an HI headlight approaching in the opposite direction. And with the length of our trains, there was usually little margin for error between stopping short and over-running.

[newbryford]

8 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

I'm sure this is buried in another topic but the search didn't throw anything up.  

 

Here's at least one previous thread

 

[Trog]

7 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

 

 

 

Grandmother rights? :-)

 

Although I don't think any LU stock has yellow ends.

[Trog]

3 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

I wonder why GWR persist with yellow ends on their Class 800s when other operators don't?  Yellow and dark green isn't the best look.

 

Perhaps they have some old school bosses who put staff safety over image.

[phil-b259]

39 minutes ago, Trog said:

 

Grandmother rights? :-)

 

Although I don't think any LU stock has yellow ends.

 

No but it does have a very distinctive RED band across the front that performs the same function.

 

Ask yourself this, why do we now insist on colour contrasting passenger doors on trains? - answer: because contrasting colours make an enormous difference when highlighting important features to those whose eyesight may be poor.

 

Yes members of the public might not be out on track patrolling, lifting and packing track, maintaining point equipment - BUT there are HUNDREDS (if not THOUSANDS) of footpath crossings across railways in the UK where the only thing stopping a member of the public from being run over by a train is their ability to spot one approaching. Unlike railway staff, those members of the public may have sight or hearing deficiencies - and as such we should be providing multiple levels of protection here - not just one (headlights)

 

As a track worker my personal belief is that ALL ordinary* trains MUST have a forward facing section of the the driving cabs painted in a high visibility scheme** - and I don't give a s**t how many bureaucrats , desk bound safety advisors, risk analysts, creative livery designers (or indeed railway modellers) tell me otherwise! Headlights on their own ,however bright or wonderfully arranged, are simply NOT good enough!

 

* As under BR exceptions for steam locos.

 

** While yellow is my preference, LU Red or GBRF Orange are good substitutes due to their vibrancy and ability to contrast well with the rest of the cab structure.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by phil-b259

[rogerzilla]

ISTR that it's a particular yellow (I see it as a warm shade, rather than lemon-yellow) so colour-blind people of various types can see it too, but I don't know how true that is.  It worked fairly well with Rail Blue, being pretty much the perfect contrast.

 

What I don't understand is why yellow was felt necessary for modern traction but steam was ok with a red buffer beam.  Ok, steam engines sometimes make a huge plume of steam and smoke, and a loud exhaust sound, but not with the regulator closed, not on hot days, and not much when running at 15% cut off.  And if you've heard a Class 50 approaching at a decent main line speed, diesels aren't exactly stealthy either.  We could literally hear one a mile away before they came through Thatcham or Overton in the 80s.

[Trog]

Myself I think that bright head lights are the best safety improvement for years, and are worth wagon loads of safety paperwork. However a combination of a headlamp in a yellow front has got to be better that either on its own. I found that after nearly forty years of working on track I was sensitised to the particular shade of yellow paint used, and that it attracted my attention regardless of any movement. I also found that on a hot day heat shimmer deflects the light beam randomly spreading the beam and reducing its effectiveness. Conversely the shimmering effect on the image of the yellow front of an approaching train gives a false impression of more movement so that instead of steadily enlarging the trains image also changes in size, which is quite eye catching.

[royaloak]

4 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

I wonder why GWR persist with yellow ends on their Class 800s when other operators don't?  Yellow and dark green isn't the best look.

Because without a yellow end if one of those headlights or the cyclops marker fail then its maximum 20mph, with a yellow end its line-speed, a very good reason to keep the yellow end in my opinion.

 

Thats before we get onto the trains visibility to track workers.

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

No but it does have a very distinctive RED band across the front that performs the same function.

 

Ask yourself this, why do we now insist on colour contrasting passenger doors on trains? - answer: because contrasting colours make an enormous difference when highlighting important features to those whose eyesight may be poor.

 

Yes members of the public might not be out on track patrolling, lifting and packing track, maintaining point equipment - BUT there are HUNDREDS (if not THOUSANDS) of footpath crossings across railways in the UK where the only thing stopping a member of the public from being run over by a train is their ability to spot one approaching. Unlike railway staff, those members of the public may have sight or hearing deficiencies - and as such we should be providing multiple levels of protection here - not just one (headlights)

 

As a track worker my personal belief is that ALL ordinary* trains MUST have a forward facing section of the the driving cabs painted in a high visibility scheme** - and I don't give a s**t how many bureaucrats , desk bound safety advisors, risk analysts, creative livery designers (or indeed railway modellers) tell me otherwise! Headlights on their own ,however bright or wonderfully arranged, are simply NOT good enough!

 

* As under BR exceptions for steam locos.

 

** While yellow is my preference, LU Red or GBRF Orange are good substitutes due to their vibrancy and ability to contrast well with the rest of the cab structure.

 

 

But what the hell do you or I know about train safety, I mean it isnt like you are out there at track level playing hear or see the silent death approaching is it, obviously somebody well versed in driving a desk or slide rule knows much more about it than you do.

 

And round we go again! 

[royaloak]

58 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

And if you've heard a Class 50 approaching at a decent main line speed, diesels aren't exactly stealthy either.  We could literally hear one a mile away before they came through Thatcham or Overton in the 80s.

Try the same trick with an IET running on diesel and let me know how you get on.

[Steadfast]

Lights are good in the distance and catch your attention in the first place.

High contrast (eg yellow...) against surroundings, dark windscreens and dark underframes make it easier to judge the distance and how fast the train is moving, as you can see the train getting bigger.

Also the lights on 800s/802s etc in particular are so bright that they cause a heat haze type effect, which from a distance can make it hard to judge whether a stationary train has started moving

 

Jo

[royaloak]

53 minutes ago, Trog said:

Myself I think that bright head lights are the best safety improvement for years, and are worth wagon loads of safety paperwork. However a combination of a headlamp in a yellow front has got to be better that either on its own.

I like the headlights as an addition to the yellow end, not as a replacement for it.

 

Quote

I found that after nearly forty years of working on track I was sensitised to the particular shade of yellow paint used, and that it attracted my attention regardless of any movement.

As I am accustomed to looking for orange, horse for courses.