Point control

[mikes rail]

Good afternoon, your advice and input please. My small layout at present uses solenoid point motors I am thinking of changing to a slow motion type instead. So what do you use and how easy are they to install? 

I use Peco code 100 track and have a 3 way point at one location so can 2 slow action motors be fitted under such a point?

Are they good for switching frog polarity?

What type of power supply do you use with them?

Thanks for any advice on this subject 

Mike

 

[Phil Bullock]

Analogue or DCC control of your motors Mike?

[Pete the Elaner]

What slow action motors do you have in mind?

Tortoises have 2 switches included, either one can be used for frog switching, leaving the other spare for something else.

They also need to be wired differently, by swapping the polarity of the supply, so need a different method of switching. It is not any more or less difficult, just different.

How many points do you have in mind?

[Dominion]

You CAN use existing passing contact switches as typically used for solenoids to run slow acting point motors like Cobalts and Tortoises. I have just done that over this Christmas. So if you have those kind of switches on your control panel you can still make the change to slow acting motors that you are planning. Pete is right that the power to the motors needs to be reversed to operate them, and it is not obvious how to do that from a passing contact switch. The trick is to use 2 matched power supplies. I got mine from the little wall wart power supplies from an old pair of phones, 6 volt, but other low DC voltages will work too. I had a similar pair from a disused pair of baby monitors I have been keeping in case they came in handy (for 20 years :-) ) !

 

You wire the positive from one to the negative of the other and make that a common supply to one side of each slow acting point motor. Then run the remaining negative of one and positive of the other to each side of the passing contact switch (Like a Peco PL-26). Then the central contact of the switch goes to the other side of the drive contact on the point motor.

 

I got the idea and wiring diagram from the DCC concepts website. 

 

Operating that way will not appeal to everyone as the switch needs to be held in the contact zone for 4 or 5 seconds to get complete travel, and that takes a little practice. But you quickly get the hang of it. I justify it to myself as it being a little like the actual motion that you see signalmen using in boxes when they pull the lever about a third of the way first with a momentary pause and then pull it all the way.

The Cobalts and I think the Tortoises too are technically stall motors, i.e. they are designed to allow the voltage to be on with a very small current flowing after the points have been thrown. But I have found the gearing in the motors and springing in the activation wire is plenty to keep the blades against the stock rails even with the power off.

 

If anyone wants to try it and can't find the wiring diagram let me know and I will search for it and add a link.

 

Also yes you can fit 2 Cobalts under a Peco 3 way no problem.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Dominion
Typos

[RFS]

Simple solution for slow-motion turnout motors, whether Tortoise or Cobalt, is to use simple DPDT changeover switches which are very cheap (eg 5 switches for £2.39 post free here from Ebay).

 

To wire them up, see the Tortoise wiring options (Cobalt likely to be the same)  tortoise.pdf

 

I can't speak for Cobalt, but with a 3-way turnout you simply mount the two Tortoise motors "nose-to-nose". 

[mikes rail]

Thanks for the info, not sure which make to go for as have had no past that experience of using them. The layout is dcc but point control is dc

mike 

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, Dominion said:

You wire the positive from one to the negative of the other and make that a common supply to one side of each slow acting point motor. Then run the remaining negative of one and positive of the other to each side of the passing contact switch (Like a Peco PL-26). Then the central contact of the switch goes to the other side of the drive contact on the point motor.

 

I had not considered using passing contact switches & trusting that they will hold without the stalling current.

The idea of a -ve / 0 / +ve power supply is sound & I would like to try it if I ever used a traditional DC panel with stall motors.

You would need a common to all motors then just 1 wire for each. This is much more efficient than the 1 common + 2 for each required for solenoids or 2 for each required for stall motors with DPDT switching.

[Dominion]

2 hours ago, mikes rail said:

Thanks for the info, not sure which make to go for as have had no past that experience of using them. The layout is dcc but point control is dc

mike 

I use Cobalts. A couple of my very early ones jammed and needed a tap on the box or a manual reverse to the power supply to get them working again. That type have not been in production for a long while, so any you buy new are very unlikely to be like those.  All the ones I have installed since those very early ones have been faultless so far. (By newer ones i mean all of omega classics and omega IPs as well as digital IPs).  I have not used Tortoises but imagine they must be good too. They are taller than Cobalts if space is an issue for you.

[Phil Bullock]

2 hours ago, mikes rail said:

Thanks for the info, not sure which make to go for as have had no past that experience of using them. The layout is dcc but point control is dc

mike 

 

Thanks Mike. My experiences are with tortoises on DCC so will leave others to discuss the powering with DC. Mechanically the tortoises were excellent for me and installation was a doddle . As others have said they are tall but less of an issue if you are not taking your layout out to shows.

[newbryford]

21 hours ago, Dominion said:

You CAN use existing passing contact switches as typically used for solenoids to run slow acting point motors like Cobalts and Tortoises. I have just done that over this Christmas. So if you have those kind of switches on your control panel you can still make the change to slow acting motors that you are planning. Pete is right that the power to the motors needs to be reversed to operate them, and it is not obvious how to do that from a passing contact switch. The trick is to use 2 matched power supplies. I got mine from the little wall wart power supplies from an old pair of phones, 6 volt, but other low DC voltages will work too. I had a similar pair from a disused pair of baby monitors I have been keeping in case they came in handy (for 20 years :-) ) !

 

You wire the positive from one to the negative of the other and make that a common supply to one side of each slow acting point motor. Then run the remaining negative of one and positive of the other to each side of the passing contact switch (Like a Peco PL-26). Then the central contact of the switch goes to the other side of the drive contact on the point motor.

 

I got the idea and wiring diagram from the DCC concepts website. 

 

Operating that way will not appeal to everyone as the switch needs to be held in the contact zone for 4 or 5 seconds to get complete travel, and that takes a little practice. But you quickly get the hang of it. I justify it to myself as it being a little like the actual motion that you see signalmen using in boxes when they pull the lever about a third of the way first with a momentary pause and then pull it all the way.

The Cobalts and I think the Tortoises too are technically stall motors, i.e. they are designed to allow the voltage to be on with a very small current flowing after the points have been thrown. But I have found the gearing in the motors and springing in the activation wire is plenty to keep the blades against the stock rails even with the power off.

 

If anyone wants to try it and can't find the wiring diagram let me know and I will search for it and add a link.

 

Also yes you can fit 2 Cobalts under a Peco 3 way no problem.

 

Stall type motors will quite happily use maintained contact switches - they do not need to be passing contact or pushbuttons.

(I understand that you are re-using your existing switches as a split-rail power supply)

 

The Cobalt Digital IP may be an option if you are thinking of using DCC for point control later.

 

They can be powered from the main DCC bus, but have a manual input that can be buttons or spring return switches to operate the motor (and you can still operate them from DCC as well!)

So you do not need any extra power supply and you can use your existing solenoid buttons

 

As for installation - easy. Others have said - two of them can be installed on a 3-way point - even in N gauge!

[mikes rail]

Thanks Newbryford that sounds a interesting idea 

Mike

[mikeg]

You could use servos as they are easily installed and fit in a small space and can be used with either DC or DCC only down side is the price of the control electronics have a look at mega points not used them but if starting a new layout would strongly be tempted.

 

 Regards mike 

[RexAshton]

1 hour ago, mikeg said:

You could use servos as they are easily installed and fit in a small space and can be used with either DC or DCC only down side is the price of the control electronics have a look at mega points not used them but if starting a new layout would strongly be tempted.

 

 Regards mike 

I've fitted Megapoints controllers to two layouts now. Very happy with the results using the  recommended Hobby King servos and Gaugemaster's DCC80 frog juicers. Bear in mind that the frog juicers are DCC only though. I've also used the Peco Smartswitch system on an H0 shunting plank, again with complete success.

[Paul80]

I went down the Servo route on my layouts at first I used the MERG Servo4 system and now introducing their new EzyBus system, both using Gaugemaster DCC80 frog juicers.

 

Nice and cheap compared to the more commercial options but just as reliable.

 

Paul

[mikes rail]

First many thanks for all the info, having looked at the different colbalt models I am going for the Cobalt Classic Ω as I do run the layout on dc at times. If I may indulge you help with one last question and that concerns the switches used to control the points.

having looked at lots of sites online I am more then a little puzzled at this point (no pun intended) Dcc concepts show a DPDT switch but I can not find out if thats a latching switch or hold to make type switch also some sites show push button switches. This puzzles me as  I thought that slow acting point motors needed a small power supply at all times to hold the point closed. As the remaining brain cell is getting a bit overloaded any input would be most welcome 

thanks 

Mike

[Dominion]

I had this question too in the past and received a very helpful reply from DCC concepts. Yes I think the normal approach with slow acting point motors would be to use a switch that leaves the power on and indeed some people call the motors stall motors as motor stalls at the end of the throw but still with a  small current.

 

However they said the gearing in the gear chain and the springing in the actuator wire would be plenty strong enough to keep the point blades against the stock rail.  Indeed I have found that to be the case for OO so I use momentary switches. I like having a lever so I use the Peco ones. Be aware however that if you do use momentary switches you have to hold the power on for 3-5 seconds depending on your voltage to complete the throw of the blades. 

[mikes rail]

Thank you Dominion that answers my question I now know which way to go.

Mike

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, mikes rail said:

First many thanks for all the info, having looked at the different colbalt models I am going for the Cobalt Classic Ω as I do run the layout on dc at times. If I may indulge you help with one last question and that concerns the switches used to control the points.

having looked at lots of sites online I am more then a little puzzled at this point (no pun intended) Dcc concepts show a DPDT switch but I can not find out if thats a latching switch or hold to make type switch also some sites show push button switches. This puzzles me as  I thought that slow acting point motors needed a small power supply at all times to hold the point closed. As the remaining brain cell is getting a bit overloaded any input would be most welcome 

thanks 

Mike

 

Stall motors are designed to have power on all the time. So a latching switch is perfectly OK.

However, if you do feel the need to switch off, then the motors (and output arms) will stay where they are.

As for Omegas - don't be tempted to use a 12vDC  unregulated supply - such as auxiliaries from the side/back of DC controllers - with the voltage selector switch on the Omega set to 6-12v. Set it to 12-18v. Or better still - use a regulated supply.

 

 

I have a mix of Cobalt Digital IP and Tortoise on my layout (as well as Megapoints servos - but that's another story) - the Tortoise are controlled by a ESU Switchpilot and the output from it does turn off after a couple of seconds and "relaxes" very slightly.

The Digital Cobalts do go into "sleep" mode after a few seconds and remove power from the motor.

Despite warnings of doom and gloom from only one person [*], I have yet to see either Cobalt or Tortoise move when power is switched off.

 

[*] "they will move under the constant vibration of passing trains" was his dire advice. 

 

 

[gwrwill]

I switched to cobalt digital motors about 6 months ago and very happy with them.

[doilum]

On 04/01/2020 at 13:51, mikes rail said:

Thanks Newbryford that sounds a interesting idea 

Mike

 

On 03/01/2020 at 17:26, RFS said:

Simple solution for slow-motion turnout motors, whether Tortoise or Cobalt, is to use simple DPDT changeover switches which are very cheap (eg 5 switches for £2.39 post free here from Ebay).

 

To wire them up, see the Tortoise wiring options (Cobalt likely to be the same)  tortoise.pdf

 

I can't speak for Cobalt, but with a 3-way turnout you simply mount the two Tortoise motors "nose-to-nose". 

A three or four pole change over switch allows you to change the frog polarity without relying on the point motor contacts. Works especially if you have a limited number of points.