Information on King's Cross Goods Yard - 1960s/1970s

[SED Freightman]

17 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

The photos I have seen,  I believe in one of Paul Shannon's tomes, suggest that the hoppers were  unloaded using the old 'coal cells', which had acquired some  very 'agricultural' roofs.

The old hoppers were replaced, I suspect, because they were restricted to 45 mph maximum; the bogie ones being capable of 60 mph. The difference would have made finding paths a lot easier.

The 'new' hoppers had been used by Hall and Co for sea-dredged gravel from Newhaven to either Tolworth or Chessington. Incidently, these wagons are still on King's Cross/ St Pancras traffic today, though the discharge point is now further west, adjacent to the Down lines from St Pancras, as is that for the cement.

 

The bogie hoppers, whilst appearing similar, are unlikely to have been the ex Hall Aggregates wagons as after the traffic to Crawley and Tolworth ceased they were stored at Newhaven Town (definitely still there on 31/07/1993) until eventually sent to Peak Forest.  I believe the wagons are used, along with other ex RMC hoppers, on services to the new St Pancras Churchyard Sdg which replaced the remaining cement and aggregate facilities in Kings Cross Goods.  Interestingly the bogie wagons pictured, appear to have sufficient underclearance to be suitable for discharge by mobile conveyor as well as dropping their contents into a pit, could these have been unloaded in the same siding as the Murphy Aggregates wagons ex Angerstein Wharf ?

[SED Freightman]

In addition to the various services already mentioned, Kings Cross Goods received several trains of sea-dredged aggregate each week from Angerstein Wharf. I am not sure when the traffic commenced, but the SR WTT Section N (Conditional Services), commencing 06/05/1974, shows a pathway available each weekday for an 0430 (6E48) Angerstein Wharf to Kings Cross and 0930 (6O62) return, formed of a class 33 + 9 x 102t bogie hoppers.  The service ran via Kew East Jn and the Kings Cross Incline, reversing into and out of Kings Cross Goods, and continued operation for Murphy, Marcon and latterly Tarmac Topmix, until closure of the yard for re-development.  Discharge of the wagons was by means of a lorry mounted conveyor system, which was also used at other terminals served by the same wagons such as Paddington New Yard and Stewarts Lane.  The trains were worked throughout by Hither Green crews.

[Fat Controller]

13 minutes ago, SED Freightman said:

 

The bogie hoppers, whilst appearing similar, are unlikely to have been the ex Hall Aggregates wagons as after the traffic to Crawley and Tolworth ceased they were stored at Newhaven Town (definitely still there on 31/07/1993) until eventually sent to Peak Forest.  I believe the wagons are used, along with other ex RMC hoppers, on services to the new St Pancras Churchyard Sdg which replaced the remaining cement and aggregate facilities in Kings Cross Goods.  Interestingly the bogie wagons pictured, appear to have sufficient underclearance to be suitable for discharge by mobile conveyor as well as dropping their contents into a pit, could these have been unloaded in the same siding as the Murphy Aggregates wagons ex Angerstein Wharf ?

I'm trying to think who owned those bogie sand hoppers; the most likely would have been TigerRail, whose fleet was scattered when the parent company went broke

[SED Freightman]

5 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

I'm trying to think who owned those bogie sand hoppers; the most likely would have been TigerRail, whose fleet was scattered when the parent company went broke

 

Yes, Tiger Rail. Paul Bartlett's excellent website has a couple of photos of these wagons at Cambridge bearing a sign for 'Mineral Haul' at the right hand end as per the leading wagon in the earlier photo of a train hauled by the pair of 37's at Kings Cross Goods.  Any idea who or what were Mineral Haul ?

Edited January 5, 2020 by SED Freightman
Mineral rail amended to Mineral Haul

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

 

Yes, Tiger Rail. Paul Bartlett's excellent website has a couple of photos of these wagons at Cambridge bearing a sign for 'Mineral Rail' at the right hand end as per the leading wagon in the earlier photo of a train hauled by the pair of 37's at Kings Cross Goods.  Any idea who or what were Mineral Rail ?

Coudln't find anything about them; perhaps a joint venture between Tiger Rail and a Leasco?

[Swindon 123]

On 04/01/2020 at 11:54, MarshLane said:

 

What was the routing and operational procedure for arriving/departing at KX - did it go to Ferme Park to run-round in each direction, or propel into and out of the terminal do you know?

The cement trains used to drop down the incline from Camden Road in the slow line tunnels, either the Down or Up slow, usually the Up, and then reverse into the goods yard. Did it many times with the "Fletliner" train that we used to pick up at Willesden Freightliner Terminal, later Brent yard,  as a back working off the Kellogs.. See below.

 

See this photo on my Flickr site showing a single Clss 25 cement train just tuning onto the incline at Camden.

 

Paul J.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Swindon 123

[Swindon 123]

When I was at Kings Cross (1979-84) used to see the sand train quite often. Up to about 1983 it I only photographed it with a single clss 37 on the front, but at 1983 shot of it has 2 x class 31 on the front. I never saw the main train put off at Wood Green, it was always heading to/from KX Goods yard, which by the way did have at least one Class 08 as a pilot. I did capture on photo the Bounds Green pilot shunting the "Sand Hole" at Wood Green. See photos below from my Flickr pages.

 

First a couple of Class 37 hauled loaded trains.

 

 

Now some Class 37 hauled empties.

 

 

 

 

The only time I captured anything other than a 37 on the front. 2 x Class 31 on the loaded hoppers bound for Kings Cross Goods.

 

Lastly 08558 shunting the "Sand Hole".

 

 

Paul J.

[MarshLane]

Thanks guys,

Some superb detail, and accompanying images there - very grateful to you all for your time and help.

 

Rich

[roythebus]

On 04/01/2020 at 11:54, MarshLane said:

 

What was the routing and operational procedure for arriving/departing at KX - did it go to Ferme Park to run-round in each direction, or propel into and out of the terminal do you know?

They pulled the train into the tunnel, reversed into the goods yard and ran round. Depart via propelling into the tunnel and made a run for the North London Incline.

 

[roythebus]

The Up Avoiding Line at FP was known as "the creep up".

 

I secondmanned a Bletchley drive into KX goods when I was 2ndman at Rugby in 1975, 2x25s on a brick train. In December 75 I moved to KX.  At that time there were 3 08s in the goods yard. My Christmas Present was to be booked on with another 2ndman and 2 drivers to start all the 08s and run them up the yard. we trie to but all "had flat batteries". Same boxing day.

 

There was a regular Southern turn from Redhiil IIRC to KX, usually 2x33s and sand or gravel hoppers. It was common for one loco to "be required back at Redhill" a bit sharpish leaving the other to take the empties back alone. this was ok providing the other loco was a good un. Several times I witnessed this happen with the Southern men having several goes at getting up the incline, then the 08 or a passing 31 was found to push them up the bank. 

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, roythebus said:

The Up Avoiding Line at FP was known as "the creep up".

 

I secondmanned a Bletchley drive into KX goods when I was 2ndman at Rugby in 1975, 2x25s on a brick train. In December 75 I moved to KX.  At that time there were 3 08s in the goods yard. My Christmas Present was to be booked on with another 2ndman and 2 drivers to start all the 08s and run them up the yard. we trie to but all "had flat batteries". Same boxing day.

 

There was a regular Southern turn from Redhiil IIRC to KX, usually 2x33s and sand or gravel hoppers. It was common for one loco to "be required back at Redhill" a bit sharpish leaving the other to take the empties back alone. this was ok providing the other loco was a good un. Several times I witnessed this happen with the Southern men having several goes at getting up the incline, then the 08 or a passing 31 was found to push them up the bank. 

 

Roy,

Thanks for that input, thats great.  Its always wonderful to hear these stories from the guys that were doing that job.  Thanks for contributing.

Rich

[roythebus]

Sometimes the Redhill would turn up with an ED (73). That really would struggle up the incline even with the 350 as a banker.

 

[griffgriff]

Oops

Edited April 12, 2023 by griffgriff
Posted in wrong thread.

[roythebus1]

On 04/01/2020 at 17:13, MarshLane said:

Firstly.

Thanks for all the input guys, please keep it coming!

 

 

The wagons in the top picture are definitely air-braked bogie hoppers, with bottom discharge.  Those on the lower picture look like 21-ton vac-braked HTVs to me.  One wonders why they had a 31/37 double-header that day?  Had the 37 failed I wonder.

 

 

 

Oh that could have just opened the door to running a pair of a Class 20s   Thanks, interesting that the shunting options at Cambridge changed with the swap from Vac to Air-Brake.  I had presumed that Kings Cross was a grab discharge for the wagons - but given the bogie wagons pictured earlier I am wondering if there was some form of hopper discharge installed?

 

 

Thats great. I had presumed that they would have propelled - being on the former goods lines, it was the obvious move, and unlikely to hold up any other traffic.  The signal box diagram is also useful, thanks again   Im pleased I started this thread, as it has opened the door to pairs of Class 20s and 25s both being seen in the area!  @anroar53 or @Rugd1022 - do either of you happen to remember if there was an '08' pilot at Kings Cross Goods at that time, or was any shunting undertaken by the train loco?

 

Rich

There was 6 KX goods pilots until the late 1970s.

 

[roythebus1]

You might want to watch the recently premiered film "The train at Platform 5" at kingscrossrailwayworkers.org.uk. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by roythebus1

[hmrspaul]

Not seen this topic before (I was in remote Panama early 2020)

 

Most of the photos of the Tunnel Cement TC89xx wagons in this collection are in KX yard https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/tunnelcastlepca

 

The airbraked hoppers used were originally built in 1983 as covered hoppers but quite soon had the covers removed https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pbapha/e594f612c https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pbapha/e59503e3a  By this time they were working to Ely so am making a guess these are the Fen Drayton ones. 

 

The HTVs used earlier December 1986  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brrebuilthtohtv/e272f8007   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brrebuilthtohtv/e1ee7ee78   and probably in this traffic in 1978 when these wagons were rebuilt with new bodies in c1977. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brrebuilthtohtv/e11889994

 

An earlier HTV written for the Sand traffic Return to Cambridge https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld/e29730894   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld/e24257d77    https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld/e374ce3f5

 

Paul

 

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

Not seen this topic before (I was in remote Panama early 2020)

 

Most of the photos of the Tunnel Cement TC89xx wagons in this collection are in KX yard https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/tunnelcastlepca

 

The airbraked hoppers used were originally built in 1983 as covered hoppers but quite soon had the covers removed https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pbapha/e594f612c https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pbapha/e59503e3a  By this time they were working to Ely so am making a guess these are the Fen Drayton ones. 

 

The HTVs used earlier December 1986  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brrebuilthtohtv/e272f8007   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brrebuilthtohtv/e1ee7ee78   and probably in this traffic in 1978 when these wagons were rebuilt with new bodies in c1977. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brrebuilthtohtv/e11889994

 

An earlier HTV written for the Sand traffic Return to Cambridge https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld/e29730894   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld/e24257d77    https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/br21thopperweld/e374ce3f5

 

Paul

 

 

Thanks Paul

Rich

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

I was a secondman in the early/mid 70's at KX. There was quite a bit of goods work at the time. A regular turn was a class 8 goods from Peterborough to KX goods, leaving Peterborough around 2030, arriving KX goods around midnight, usually loaded to 600 tons. at Least 5 trip workings to & from Temple Mills & KX goods. running round at opposite Finsbury Pk Diesel depot and going over the hump at Temple Mills. One interesting shunt job was, travelling out to Bounds Green to shunt coal wagons ay Charringtons yard at the old Palace Gates station, then shunting at Rowntrees chocolate wagons, opposite the old Wood Green tunnel sidings, when that was done, it was through Wood Green station to the sand yard, were again we shunted the wagons around.

 

manna

[MRE2]

As a Kings Cross secondman and driver I had a lot of experience of KX Goods Yard. As a secondman I regularly worked local goods trains to Hitchin, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Cambridge, and Temple Mills from the goods yard. Some were unfitted, some partially fitted, and some fully fitted. The Temple Mills trains were run round at Finsbury Park #2 signalbox (outside Finsbury Park depot) and proceed via Canonbury, Dalston, Victoria Park, and Stratford. The return working followed the same route and proceeded from Finsbury Park # 2 box via the "creep up" back to Holloway and thence over the viaduct to the Goods Yard. The Huntingdon train was an old-school pickup goods, we shunted at Stevenage, Hitchin, Biggleswade, Sandy, St Neots, Offord, and put the remaining wagons into the old cattle dock behind Huntingdon station.
I also regularly worked 4S82 Freightliner from the Goods Yard, this was one of our top link jobs into lodge at Newcastle, returning the following day with 1E05 Flying Scotsman. We also has 3S15 and 3L21 parcels trains from the North Shed in the Goods Yard, these were Doncaster return workings for us, one of which was 3E03 parcels from Scotland. We also worked the balancing Freightliner train into the yard, it was 4E86 which means it originated in Scotland and arrived in the Goods Yard at 04.48.  Another regular working was 6E47 fish train which we worked up from Doncaster, arriving in the yard at 02.00 after going north with 1D06 express at 18.08. All of these workings finished in the mid-1970s.
After the heady days of long distance freight and parcels, as a junior driver I worked on the yard pilots regularly. There were still 3 pilots in the early 1970s, soon reduced to 2, and by the end of the 70s there was just one. During this time the freight guards, who were based in an old brick building between 5-Arch signal cabin and the site of the old turntable, moved down to the signing-on point in Kings Cross station with all the other train crews. The shunters remained in the same building until the yard was finally closed - they were a law unto themselves, ran the job so that everything worked and nothing was ever reported, proper old-school railway !
Over the years various parts of the Goods Yard became disused and closed down, although the same names were still used. The Potato Market, the Cattle Pens (adjacent to the site of the original 1840s Maiden Lane Station that was used before Kings Cross station was built), the Bonded Yard, the Coal Drops, the North Yard, etc etc were all known to Kings Cross crews for over a Century. A typical shunt movement could be described as "up the tunnel, back over 99 handle, then propel into the Road" which of course referred to one of the sidings still in use from the days when horse traffic was used as road transport and the horses were stabled in the Goods Yard (the cobbled roadways and some of the stabling is still extant).
We had to shunt the Cement sidings, adjacent to the North London Incline where Midland men brought the cement trains down into the goods yard, they would go right into Goods & Mineral tunnel then propel back up to the cement sidings. One place I never went to was The Farm : this was the group of sidings reached by climbing the steep incline that went behind Goods & Mineral signalbox (including having a single line staff to access) and was the collective name for the sidings and traders access on the site of where Mrs Wilberforce's house was constructed for the film The Ladykillers, which also includes lots of footage of the signal at the entrance to the tunnel, and the gantry at the south end of the tunnel for arriving trains.
Before they started to tear down the yard buildings a lift the track, I had a good opportunity to have a look round one morning. On a sunny summer Saturday morning in the 1970s, arriving on 4E86 Freightliner, having no rush and a curious mind, I spent a couple of hours wandering in and out of many of the buildings. Office furniture was still in place, together with old magazines and general rubbish. In the warehouses, ropes and handles for the old wagon turntables were still in corners where they had been thrown maybe 50 years before. General rubbish such as broken crates from the fruit & veg traffic, numerous old and rotting sacks, discarded paperwork from consist lists, etc etc, were all over the place, giving testament to the huge amount of men and work that made Kings Cross Goods Yard one of the busiest places in North London. I am happy to have known and been part of it, maybe not at its peak 1850 - 1950, but as a busy working yard with some good memories.

[MarshLane]

@manna @MRE2

Thanks to both of you for your thoughts and recollections, so valuable as time moves on.  Please feel free to add any other detail about railway life/activities around Kings Cross station/shed/goods yard/Holloway area.  All absolutely fascinating and a point in time that will never happen again.

 

@MRE2 You mentioned the 4S82 Freightliner and the parcels traffic - what was the normal motive power for those at the time? I am assuming 47s?

 

Rich

[keefer]

I think in the '70s at least, 4E86 might have originated in Aberdeen as I've seen pics somewhere of it at Edinburgh Waverley, heading south on the North through line (past Platforms 19/1).

EDIT: found my 1975/6 ScR East WTT.

4E86 is the 16.35SX Aberdeen FLT to King's Cross Freightliner, booked for cl.47 and 525 tonnes, arrives Dundee West 18.06

Presumably then works forward to Glasgow FLT to pick up, as it's 

next shown passing Haymarket West Jcn at 20.20 with loco/crew change at Haymarket 20.25 & Waverley at 20.30

It's now timed for 900 tonnes, departing Waverley at 20.33

(Don't think I have the corresponding ScR West WTT which would show the Dundee-Glasgow working)

Edited April 14, 2023 by keefer
Correction

[keefer]

Forgot to say, in 1975/6 6E47 was the 13.46SX Aberdeen Deeside Yard - King's Cross timed for cl.47 and 330 tonnes.