DC wiring help with possible changing to DCC

[Great Eastern Lady]

Hello everyone 

After many months of lurking I decided to join rmweb .  
I am planning on building a GER branch terminus based roughly on Framlingham , Suffolk.

I’m going to be running DC as the few locos I have aren’t DCC chipped , although that will change when finances allow.

The question I have is , can I wire the layout to DCC but run DC locos until I get them done and of course the correct controller.

 

This is the track plan , so I’d like to know about bus wires and where to put the power leads and isolators 

I will be using Peco code 100 track and Electrofrog points 

 

Thank you 

 

[ROSSPOP]

There is no difference between wiring a DC layout to a DCC layout.   Theoretically DCC is easier(less wiring).  With DC wiring YOU have to make the isolating sections by supplying the switches and cutting the track.   SO.... if you do that all you have to do when changing over to DCC is make sure all your isolated sections are switched to LIVE ( so every section of track has power at the same time) then connect to your DCC controller of choice and away you go.  As long as  you have avoided any possible electrical shorting with your DC track laying all will be well.  With DCC working , PECO points are more reliable by being changed so that the point frogs are isolated from the stock rails and the track current is more reliable if you use wire droppers and not rely on using rail joiners.

[Dungrange]

It's certainly possible to wire a layout for both DCC or DC operation (but not at the same time) simply plugging in the appropriate controller (DCC or DC).  However, the main advantage of DCC is that the whole layout is live.  Therefore if primarily wired for DCC operation, you would only be able to operate a single DC locomotive when using your DC controller as the whole layout would be live and connected to that controller.  If when operating as a DC layout, you will want more than one locomotive, then you will have to take account of that in your hybrid wiring.  That is, you'd either have to wire separate sections (as per DC Cab Control) or you'd have to create isolating sections within your predominantly DCC wiring.  Which is the best course of action depends on whether if you are using two or more locomotives, they both need to move at the same time (DC Cab Control) or you just need to be able to isolate a locomotive at one or more discrete locations (DCC isolating sections).

 

 

[Great Eastern Lady]

Thank you for answering 

 

I was thinking of using two controllers. One for the main line and run round loop and loco shed road with using a trap point on the shed road to isolate it ( no idea if that’ll work) , and the other for the goods loop and sidings . Isolating the goods yard from the main line so I can shunt while a passenger train can wait in the platform or be running back from the shed 

I hope I am making sense 

 

thank you 

[grriff]

If you are the sole operator, operating one loco at a time, you will only need one DCC controller, since you will switch between locos using their addresses on the single controller.

You should only need one DC controller if you connect this to the main line and goods yard through on/off switches connected to each line . You can then switch off the line you aren't using. In practice it's better to have more sections to give greater flexibility over the movement of trains. Ideally you want a section wherever you need to isolate a loco. Isolation should be achieved by using insulated fish-plates. Each section should be connected to the DC controller though a double-pole single throw switch, that is an on-off switch for positive and negative leads.

 

[grriff]

If you haven't come across them, you may find the 'Railway Modeller - Shows you how' booklets useful https://peco-uk.com/products/wiring-the-layout-part-2-for-the-more-advanced?_pos=1&_sid=f8fe57fe8&_ss=r

[JimFin]

12 hours ago, Great Eastern Lady said:

I was thinking of using two controllers. One for the main line and run round loop and loco shed road with using a trap point on the shed road to isolate it ( no idea if that’ll work)

It will so long as you keep them isolated - not quite sure which is the loco shed road though. You might need selector switches to choose which DC controller to use, this would slightly complicate the DCC conversion - 

 

13 hours ago, ROSSPOP said:

There is no difference between wiring a DC layout to a DCC layout.   Theoretically DCC is easier(less wiring).  With DC wiring YOU have to make the isolating sections by supplying the switches and cutting the track.   SO.... if you do that all you have to do when changing over to DCC is make sure all your isolated sections are switched to LIVE ( so every section of track has power at the same time) then connect to your DCC controller of choice and away you go.

 

You would have to connect your DCC controller to both the input feeds from your DC controllers to be able to make the whole layout live.

[Izzy]

Hi,

and welcome to RMweb.

 

When you are using live frog points in general the wiring needed is basically the same whether you use DC or DCC. The big difference is that with DC you really need the track broken up into sections electrically for ease of operation when more than one loco is being used. As has already been said if you have a DC layout made and wired like this then all you need to do, and what many modellers including myself have done when first moving over to DCC, is to connect the DCC command station instead of the DC one and switch all the section switches on, simply because they are no longer needed.  It is this latter aspect where wiring can, sometimes, be simpler if building a DCC layout straight off, no need to isolate the individual sections with switches.

 

I have taken your track plan and indicated where it requires isolating - the red lines. This is usually where points face each other and need to be isolated electrically so shorts don't occur when the frogs have opposing polarity to the rail they are connected to. You will see that this requirement mostly means a layout is broken up into sections anyway - and where track feeds are thus placed. These can of course be connected up into groups with DC as required if you want, or just all connected for DCC.

 

 

I am not quite sure where the engine shed is at Framlingham. But as a rule if with sidings you don't isolate the frog from them then you get what is often known as power feeding, where the 'set' of the points determines which track is live, the other(s) except the route chosen being isolated.

 

Oh, with a double-slip, there is a need to make it a section where the track feeds are to both outer stock rails. Often it needs to be treated a complete and individual section on it's own, but where it is it just has to be the section feed, but isolated from the facing point on the loop, as per any other point.

 

I hope I have described/explained all this clearly enough. If not then don't hesitate to ask more questions.

 

Izzy

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Izzy
add the - correct - revised track plan!

[Great Eastern Lady]

Thank you everyone for your replies,  I’ve always been interested in model railways since I was a child, but this will be the first one that I’m going all out on .

Thank you @Izzy for your reply and marking the plan up with feeds and idolaters, I had a rough idea with the feeds but I missed a few lol

As for the double slip I had no idea that they are going to be so awkward to wire up , I guess the three way will be similar 

 

Thank you everyone once again 

[Izzy]

I feel I should add this further wiring diagram if it is thought that when the change to DCC is made it might be that sound fitted locos are used. The first wiring diagram I suggested is only best for non-sound fitted DCC, or of course DC.

 

 

Sound requires that all parts of the track remain live. So each piece of track needs to be separate and have it's own feed, so when the points are set against that section it is not 'dead' and the sound goes out, (so no power switching as such). As before if done this way for DC they can be joined together and switched on/off with fewer  switches, but wiring this way to start with, although meaning more droppers would save having to make wiring changes/additions later. But the downside is no simple power-switching isolation of sidings etc. A bit like the situation that now exists with the newer 'unifrog' Peco points, which are of course designed to be DCC Sound friendly so have lost the power switching aspect.

 

Izzy

Edited January 4, 2020 by Izzy
forgot the diagram - again!

[Great Eastern Lady]

@Izzy Thank you for the TTS diagram, but I don’t think I shall be using sound 

The original diagram looks ideal for what I need 

[Dungrange]

I'd expand Izzy's reference to DCC Sound to include sound and / or lights.   A rake of lit coaches or a brake van with lit tail lamp would require the same feed to every section as shown in Izzy's second image, but if you're sure that you won't want either sound or lights, then I agree that the first of Izzy's diagrams would be adequate.

[kevinlms]

How serious is the anticipated change to DCC? Perhaps instead of fully wiring for DC and then finding later that you actually want DCC and switching all the switches on, go the other way and have limited DC operation - perhaps not being able to hold locos in so many locations.

 

I guess a lot depends on how much DC equipment you already have (besides locos). If you have to buy DC controllers, all the switches and take the time to wire it fully. That all takes cash and effort and possibly there is little difference to going DCC, right from the start.

 

Purchasing a reasonable DCC controller & a bulk pack of decoders, may get you up and running DCC for less than you might think. Worth investigating IMO.

[Great Eastern Lady]

@kevinlms , I won’t be running that many locos at once , probably two at best . One shunting the yard and the other either pulling passenger trains or waiting for the next turn in the loco shed.

 

[Great Eastern Lady]

I decided to go with @Izzy idea in the end of full dcc wiring but with a couple of isolated sections that can be easily switched out 

Now I have started on building my new layout and laying track but I’ve got a problem already , I have attached a couple of photos 

Top siding will lead to a cattle dock , and that’s fully powered no problems

Middle is the carriage dock , although I have a dropper in the middle no power at 

bottom is the main platform road , I have power in a straight line but as soon as I switch the point and run over it the loco stops on the point 

I am using Peco 100 Electrofrog and I have isolated the frogs 

[Dungrange]

I'm not sure that I quite understand your problem.  Do you have isolated joiners in both rails that form your crossover?  Are you feeding both sections from the toe end of the point (ie there is a feed to the top section on the left and a feed to the bottom (platform) section at the right?  Does the locomotive go dead as it passes over the insulated rail joiners in the crossover?  If that is the case, then I'd suggest that your feed and return wires are the wrong way round on one of your sections and you're causing a short as the locomotive bridges the gap.

[Izzy]

10 hours ago, Great Eastern Lady said:

I decided to go with @Izzy idea in the end of full dcc wiring but with a couple of isolated sections that can be easily switched out 

Now I have started on building my new layout and laying track but I’ve got a problem already , I have attached a couple of photos 

Top siding will lead to a cattle dock , and that’s fully powered no problems

Middle is the carriage dock , although I have a dropper in the middle no power at 

bottom is the main platform road , I have power in a straight line but as soon as I switch the point and run over it the loco stops on the point 

I am using Peco 100 Electrofrog and I have isolated the frogs 

When wiring problems arise quite often the fault is a simple one, a connection not made is common. In this respect and having looked at your shots I would suggest that you double-check that the snap-lock connectors are passing current to the attached wires, and that the Peco frog switches used are also working properly at passing current with the point motor thrown in both directions. I don’t use either of these items but have read reports with both that they can fail to pass current at times. 
 

Izzy

 

[Great Eastern Lady]

Hi @Izzy , I solved it , just needed an extra dropper and to make sure that the alignment of the motors and frog switch is dead right 

And I have checked everything as you advised 

[Izzy]

Glad to hear it’s sorted.

 

Izzy

[Junctionmad]

just be careful using "suitcase " connectors, they are rated for a quite restricted diameter of cable and smaller cable isnt held well and can fall out over time .

[Great Eastern Lady]

@Junctionmad I have some other connectors that I can use should the others prove to be problematic 

[Junctionmad]

Just keep an eye on them. Give them a good tug when you connect them 

[DCB]

Those suitcase connectors are pretty nasty. Used by professional (qualified) bodgers to fit car tow bar electrics they are a guaranteed source of trouble.  I never use them, preferring to strip the insulation, twist the wires together and solder them before covering with insulation, heat shrink etc for permanent connections and to use soldered bullet connectors when they may need to come apart..

I like to drill my baseboard framing for the wires so I can panel the bottom of the baseboard in with Hardboard to protect the wiring.  Its amazing how often loose wires get snagged and cause troubles.

 

 

[WIMorrison]

I have used ScotchLok connectors for 40 years in all sorts of wiring situations, even in model railways, and never had an issue with them when using the correct size and fitting them properly.

[Junctionmad]

On 21/02/2020 at 08:36, WIMorrison said:

I have used ScotchLok connectors for 40 years in all sorts of wiring situations, even in model railways, and never had an issue with them when using the correct size and fitting them properly.

They tend to be “ Ok” where the wire diameter is within the stated spec of the connector. They don’t work so will if you stray outside that. Unfortunately on model railways this is often done , where the dropper wires is 7/0.2 or 17/0.2 stranded and is too small to hold reliably.