If Colonel Stephens was around today; what rolling stock would he use on his light railways?

[Hando]

3 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

Joking intended, I think he'd still be using Terriers and four wheel coaches...

 

 

How long would he manage to pull that one off for? And less importantly... What would the Government think?

 

Somehow I don't think any Government (after Modernisation, of course) would be happy with this arrangement, especially when they were (and still are) trying to really sell the idea of a modern railway network. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[Ian J.]

10 minutes ago, Narrowgaugebeginner said:

 

How long would he manage to pull that one off for? And less importantly... What would the Government think?

 

Somehow I don't think any Government (after Modernisation, of course) would be happy with this arrangement, especially when they were (and still are) trying to really sell the idea of a modern railway network. 

 

I reckon Col. Stephens would consider Terriers very modern, compared to Sans Pareil or Rocket...

Edited January 4, 2020 by Ian J.

[Dava]

One answer is to look at the trains surviving Col. Stephens' lines are using. Here is one from the K&ESR.

Sorry its pointing bunker first but you can see the vintage coaches. There is a green DMU out of sight.

 

 

Dava

[Nearholmer]

Today, in his shoes, I would:

 

- put huge effort into schmoozing councils, National Park authorities, anyone who would listen, to get them to recognise the community and environmental benefits of the railways, and back it with grants, tax breaks etc etc.

 

- not litter the railways with a load of old tat, either rolling-stock or infrastructure;

 

- use D/230 alikes for the ‘community basic rail service’. The key would be to have a train that was modern-feeling, with modern  running gear and traction package, because that is cheap to maintain;

 

- concrete or steel sleeper all track, and have the minimum track necessary, all under mechanised maintenance;

 

- run tourist services, Santa specials, dining train etc to generate income, using whatever stock the market would respond  well to, maybe reconditioned Mk1;

 

- have a Reconditioned Class 20 for the above, and for engineers trains and any freight;

 

- partner with a steam loco and heritage train preservation group, allowing them a base on the line in return for contracted operation of some of the tourist services;

 

- partner with tour coach operators, national trust, prominent hotels, etc etc to offer combined entrance/ride/tour packages;

 

- pal-up with cycling clubs/groups to offer cycle-out, train-back type arrangements;

 

- have a couple of seriously good cafes that are a destination in themselves;

 

- rent space on stations to ‘artisanal’ local businesses;

 

- work the ‘family with young kids’ and ‘prosperous pensioner’ markets, which are distinctly different, for every last hapenny; 

 

etc etc.

 

In short, cherry-pick the best bits of a preserved railway (by keeping the volunteer community happy, but on a tight rein running only a defined part of the business) and a national network local railway, and attempt to worm my way into the local economy so as to become an integral part of it.

 

Its about more than trains, and wheezing old crock trains are only special to us anoraks ..... normal people want more!

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Dava]

Everything Kevin says.

 

Add: education. Involving young people from pre-school to College & Uni. Railways can fill a gap in their experience & learning and also help develop the future staff, volunteers & visitors. It's working for the GCR with a growing educational portfolio.

 

It's also working  for its attached but independent and amazing community-driven Mountsorrel Railway. It's not quite a light railway technically, a quarry branch with a rail museum and narrow gauge system with a great cafe and nature trail, but go visit and you'll see what I mean. http://heritage-centre.co.uk/

 

Dava

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, Narrowgaugebeginner said:

 

How long would he manage to pull that one off for? And less importantly... What would the Government think?

 

Somehow I don't think any Government (after Modernisation, of course) would be happy with this arrangement, especially when they were (and still are) trying to really sell the idea of a modern railway network. 

 

Derwent Valley Railway was using steam for its passenger service in the late 70s. I dont think the Government will care what happens on a private railway.

[Nearholmer]

So long as it was safe, and met all other laws, it would be none of Central governments business, because they would have no financial involvement.
 

If local councils or park authorities chipped-in, then they could legitimately seek involvement in governance, a seat on the board perhaps, but they might prefer a contractual relationship, buying a service, which is actually simpler.

 

Isn’t the Snowdon Mountain Railway a private enterprise?

Edited January 4, 2020 by Nearholmer

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, Narrowgaugebeginner said:

I've decided to start a discussion based upon a letter I read from a back issue from Railway Modeller (vol. 66 to be specific), the writer, Ross Shimon of the Colonel Stephens Society explained that in the late 80s, AC cars railbuses ran a short-lived service between Bodiam and the now closed Dixter Halt on the KESR. He speculated that had Colonel Stephens still been alive, he would probably have used such railbuses on his 'empire'.

 

My question extends from his death in 1931 right up to the present day meaning that a wide variety of rolling stock is up for debate... even pacers!

 

I look forward to seeing your submissions,

Thanks, Alex

Terriers seem a natural.

post war,

probably J94’s until c1975 (plenty where they came from)

From 1975 early BR era DMUs, supported by various 03/04/05 shunters.

by 1985 the fat of the 1960’s diesels was burnt off, being little new to feed off from the 1970s and any other DMUs being worn out, I suspect they may have looked overseas at German or Ganz Mavag rail buses, which ran the UK Pacer competition into the ground on global export orders, though as some of these were dicey by 1990’s it could well have become an LRT tramway before the Millenium.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by adb968008

[Hesperus]

There were a few non standard DMUs being withdrawn from the late 60s onwards such as the Derby lightweights and the Park Royal 103's.  By the early 80's there were prototype Pacers floating around.  The class 14's might have been quite attractive too.

 

I used to drive an LDV minibus up to Bishops Castle a couple of times a week and considered trying to build a model of a modern(ish) incarnation of the Col Stephens Ford Railcars using a pair of back to back Leyland 300's.  Fortunately in real life nobody made an even worse Pacer

[Tom Burnham]

On 04/01/2020 at 18:28, Ian Simpson said:

Fascinating question (and answers). I often wonder what would have run on the Southern Heights Light Railway if it had been built.

I guess in the 1930s he might have tried to buy some of the steam rail motors (GWR / LNWR / L&Y etc) that were being sold off by the Big Four. The Southern Railway's Sentinel railcar might have appealed to him:

 

Or he might have concluded that rail motors were too inflexible and used light tank engines with push-pull driving coaches.

I think the use of buses converted to rail use would have appealed to him, e.g. this example from the GNR(I):

 

 

 

I suspect @rue_d_etropal's website would throw up other ideas as well.

 

The Southern Heights was intended to be electrified using third rail and worked as part of the Southern Electric system, so as far as passengers are concerned the stock would have been ordinary 3-car suburban units...

[Ravenser]

Dead Pacers towed by Terriers?

 

Or perhaps by a  Class 14

[Nearholmer]

Is anyone building a layout based on a present day (well, pre-pandemic), or perhaps recent past, rural LR?

 

It would genuinely make a very interesting "what if?" subject, and there are even a few examples of the real thing in Europe that could provide inspiration.

[Fenman]

I also think D230s today, but he might have got there via Class 17s and Mk1 suburban stock?
 

Over 100 Claytons were scrapped from 1968 onwards, but we know from the one that went into private ownership that they could be fettled into functioning locos (and apparently the second batch from Beyer Peacock were anyway vastly better than the first batch).

 

The Mk1 suburban stock had a relatively short life on BR as MUs replaced them. There’d be lots of life left in them, from Col Stephens’ perspective. Relatively simple

coaches which required little maintenance. He’d probably get coaches without lavatories, to reduce maintenance costs even more. 
 

Paul

[Nearholmer]

The military used the Mk1 suburbans as people-shifters within their sites, but they have no corridor, so a bit annoying on a railway where fares are collected on-board possibly.

[The Lurker]

there seems to be a divergence of thought here - on one hand we have people imagining that the theme would have been a relatively impoverished network, picking up any serviceable (ish) old stock and running it in to the ground, whereas Nearholmer, as an example, is looking at a more modern twist on what he might do.

 

Perhaps the way to look at this would be to examine what his motives were when building/operating the lines in the first place. I am not well placed to delve to far into that but it seems to me that the aim was to provide services to communities that were otherwise ignored or missed out by the main railway companies; usually because there was not enough projected traffic to generate a return on a normal railway, or because the local community/landowner did not scream loudly enough (or because the SER and LCDR nearly bankrupted each other so the High Weald no longer became somewhere to protect).  Roll that forward and you get something that has to appeal to the community which it purports to serve; and that community today is very different from the rural areas that most of the Colonel's lines served. Its desires, and what it would accept, would be very different from the late 19th / early 20th centuries. Look at what people want now; ironically they want something that is better than rural bus services (which just like the typical old fashioned rural branch cannot be made to pay), and perhaps they want something that enables the likes of Amazon to deliver goods - diesel railcar with a guards's compartment?

[Nearholmer]

Yes, if you look at the odd survivors sur-le-continent, they are quite modern, neat and efficient, and heavily subsidised for social/ecological reasons.

 

I reckon the most likely scenario is a national park, with a big industry that kept the line open on freight traffic, some sort of extractive industry, right at the edge of the designated park area. Think limestone near Buxton, or cement near the South Downs, for instance.

[whart57]

I'm sorry I didn't see this thread the first time around, some interesting answers.

 

My take though is that we can't overlook the fact Holman Stephens died in 1931 and that the characteristic quirkiness of his light railway empire died with him. Austen ran the remaining lines in a far more conventional manner and hired locomotives rather than buy one second or third hand.

 

But let's continue the thought experiment through. Which lines of his light railways group would have survived into the modern era with only a slight re-telling of history. I would suggest not the narrow gauge ones, the Ffestiniog would have gone its own way, and not the ones that were gasping for breath even while the Colonel lived such as the Selsey Tramway. The predominantly freight lines such as the East Kent would not outlast their industries, the stub of the EKR that survived closed with Tilmanstone Colliery in the late 1980s.

So I'm settling on two: The Weston, Clevedon and Portishead and the Shropshire and Montgomery.

 

If the WC&P had survived WW2 it would likely have been operated by BR as an extension of the Bristol-Portishead branch of the GWR. Beeching would have closed it no doubt, but if the trackbed had remained largely untouched we might imagine the line to be shortly re-opened as part of Bristol's MetroWest network. Which then provides the steer on what stock it would have.

 

The history of the S&M is tied up with its use as a military line during WW2 and up to 1960. Lets suggest that when the MoD moved out the line returned to its original ownership. Let's also suggest that the former MoD ammunition stores were turned into light industrial parks and housing developments but faced with all that extra traffic on Shropshire's rural lanes, Salop CC gave grants to refurbish and upgrade in order to provide a regular passenger service from Shrewsbury. I would envisage that during the 1970s and 80s the line would be home to AEC railbuses, possibly upgraded ones capable of pulling a goods van or two. Perhaps the line would avoid the dreaded Pacers, it is after all still independent

 

Then in the noughties in a fit of "Cool Britannia" inspired modernisation the S&M gets the grants to buy a quartet of LINT 27s

 

Hydrogen fuelled ones perhaps in recent years

 

 

[Nick C]

On 04/01/2020 at 23:18, Hesperus said:

I used to drive an LDV minibus up to Bishops Castle a couple of times a week and considered trying to build a model of a modern(ish) incarnation of the Col Stephens Ford Railcars using a pair of back to back Leyland 300's.  Fortunately in real life nobody made an even worse Pacer

 

I'd say a Pacer is a modernish incarnation of the Ford Railcars - a bus structure with rail wheels, and two of them back to back...

[Hesperus]

4 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

I'd say a Pacer is a modernish incarnation of the Ford Railcars - a bus structure with rail wheels, and two of them back to back...

 

It is in many ways but also has a far higher capacity and initial cost.  Two minibuses back to back would have similar capacity to the great mans originals and would cope with the available passengers on a 1990s version of the Shropshire & Montgomery.  I imagine one 17 seater and a van for parcels would be fine for a 90s Bishops Castle Railway.

[Tom Burnham]

I think a latter-day Shropshire & Montgomeryshire would have depended on stone traffic from Criggion, and maybe even have taken over bits of the Cambrian lines to Blodwell.  Two or three of the Type 1 diesels that BR disposed of when they got out of the local freight business would have handled the traffic.  Would have needed to be fitted for air brakes at some point.  Don't think there would have been a regular passenger service (it died during the 1930s after all) but maybe a handful of cheap carriages in a siding for occasional excursion trains.  I'm thinking centre cars out of first generation DMUs - light, open plan, corridors for ticket checks.

[Mark Saunders]

Can anyone remember Mineral Haul Ltd , the nonstarter of  a company that was to try and start moving traffic using class 25’s sometime in the 1990’s. There was reference to them getting a small number of Tiger POA’s but nothing seems to have came of it. There was also mention  of the pearlite traffic on the Cumbrian coast .

 

[Fat Controller]

5 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

Can anyone remember Mineral Haul Ltd , the nonstarter of  a company that was to try and start moving traffic using class 25’s sometime in the 1990’s. There was reference to them getting a small number of Tiger POA’s but nothing seems to have came of it. There was also mention  of the pearlite traffic on the Cumbrian coast .

 

I did see some of the wagons carrying their branding, possibly at Ferryhill at the end of the 1980s

[Michael Hodgson]

If the gallant Colonel were still around today, I rather think he would be using a Senior Railcard on the railways and he would have been one of the first to get his Covid jab.  He would be 152!   

[SZ]

Freight - whatever BR wagons were dedicated to the flow hauled by industrials of some sort, like a long siding

 

Passenger - a semi-preserved operation

[60B]

Thinking of this I'd previously had said probably demobbed Austerity tanks and Class 14s when they started being withdrawn from mainline service. But everything was moving to roads anyway so whatever big city buses were being replaced (I don't know much about buses) working out their days on various narrow roads. Couple that with new haulage companies in the post-war era and Stephens likely would have buried Rolvenden under a garage. I've never got the vibe he was a sentimental man for equipment. There was very little money in rail even in Stephens day for the type and amount of freight and passengers he was moving so moving the people to buses that actually served the villages with the mainline stations; and shifting all freight to direct would probably be profitable.

 

BP&GVR made use of sawn-off 03s to move block coal trains in the diesel era before moving to equally shorn 08s. Only one colliery on the EKLR was profitable so that would have probably been taken on by a EE 350 of pre-BR construction.

However, he could have moved into the market of locomotive hiring/ selling. Not that there was much call for that till the mid 90s. But with a number of ex BR shunters going abroad, I can't see him not selling 03s to the Italians. Not sure they'd thank him for the 17s though. 

One thing has struck me though. And that is taking on new lines. Without the romanticism of Titfield Thunderbolt but closer to the various suggested steam railbuses or the BR failed and non-standard diesel powered railbuses and DMUs. The German built ones were about the only practical ones to operate a shuttle service on the cheap without worrying about them breaking down quite as often as the other ones. I am drawing a blank on this last point on what lines and routes could have been saved without council subsidies.