StuartN Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 I have a DCC model layout, started some time ago before I knew better because I used SEEP point motors in order to switch the polarity of the frog. Big mistake because the cheap SEEP motors don't work properly. I bought a number of Gaugemaster Autofrogs, but they are expensive if you need to buy loads. Also most of the switches I bought are Double Pole Double Throw Momentary switches. So I thought as a last resort and then only in my shunting yard that I would simply use one half of the switch to switch the polarity, but this would mean physically holding the switch while the loco passes the point. And this might damage the point motor. Could I use the switch if and when the loco stalls on the frog? As you might tell, I am trying to do this on the cheap Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 I use latching relays Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 As you say the danger of motor burnt out - Gaugemaster Autofrogs are available in packs of three which Hattons have at £14.50 a pack + postage (£2.75 quoted for 1 pack) so that's at the most £5.75 a point on the basis postage for 2 packs or more will be pro rata less Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 You could use these http://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/point_indicator.html#POINT-INDICATOR-RELAY Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartN Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 Thanks for your replies. Food for thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Have you considered using micro switches for polarity switching? Long actuator switches can be had for around a £ and proved very reliable. I’ll have a dig through my pics and see if I can find one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Not a great pic, but very simple in operation. A small block of wood to bring it up to the correct height and just three wires. I appreciate it is with a Peco motor, but from memory Seep had a similar actuator. I gave up with Seep motors for exactly the reasons you have said re very unreliable switching. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I also use micro-switches, low resistance ones from RS. I surprised you have problems with Seep point motors, set them up centrally then no problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartN Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 The SEEP polarity switch is extremely crude, depending on a physical connection made by a spring. I have thought about micro switches but my dexterity has become a problem and I can't think of an easy way of connecting the seep. Cost has now become a real issue, and like HS2 have exceeded my budget, so £18 a component is too expensive. I am interested in the Bistable Latch but I don't understand Chris M's circuit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff park Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) Effectively the latching relay has two coils, a bit like the solenoid, so it latches either way. Each push button (the red ones) does two things:- it operates the solenoid and operates the relay, one way or the other. The contacts of the relay then switch the current to the rails. (Although I believe there is an error in one of the c/o connections, the top set lever spring is connected wrong) Edited January 5, 2020 by cliff park Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) A list of components and the circuit is here if it is of help? Link to item My circuit has 3 x direction diodes and 2 x resistors to reduce voltage to the relay, but all these can be omitted if wished! Or use the Gaugemaster ready built units GM500. Edited January 5, 2020 by Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 If you use a microswitch care needs to taken regarding the strength needed for it to work - The old Maplin (RIP) did some that were very lightly sprung and worked fine off the throw of solenoid. Bought some from Rapid and they stopped the point motors from working. Thought the Hattons solenoids with the built in crank would be brilliant with a microswitch but even with the Maplin switches they struggled; did not pursue that as I decided to go with Colbalts instead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 hours ago, gordon s said: A small block of wood to bring it up to the correct height and just three wires. I appreciate it is with a Peco motor, but from memory Seep had a similar actuator. They do indeed have a similar actuator. I have set up microswitches on all my SEEP motors like in your photo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted January 5, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2020 I did precisely that with Seeps before I decided to go with Tortoises. Some even had two microswitches, one operating each way, for complex switching such things as double slips. The switching worked flawlessly (unlike the Seeps themselves) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartN Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 I am now caught up in doing the switching in the cheapest way, so two thoughts. 1. Switch off the power to the point motors and use the DPDT switch to change polarity. 2. See if I can use one Autofrog to switch more than one point frog's polarity. I am not sure why this shouldn't work if only one train is using the point system. My thinking is that the train meets one frog and the autofrog changes polarity to this and the next point, and when it then meets the next point, the autofrog changes the polarity again if need be. What I don't understand if the switching is momentary, when the short circuit occurs, or it acts as a switch. Surely the latter otherwise there would be no power in the frog before hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Hi The Gaugemaster DCC80 Autofrog can only be used on DCC (Digital) powered layouts. It is not suitable for DC (Analogue) layout control. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartN Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 Sorry if I didn't make it clear, but I am using DCC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 That's OK, as this is the Non DCC section, hence my reply ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartN Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 Interesting point about this forum. Strictly speaking, the issue of point polarity happens in both DC and DCC, or have I misunderstood it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) No, no misunderstanding re Frog switching, which where moving contact switching is used is the same for DC and DCC. But the reference to using an Autofrog in the DC section immediately flagged a possible concern that these cannot be used on DC Edited January 6, 2020 by Brian Spelling & Text corrected Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dominion Posted January 6, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2020 11 hours ago, StuartN said: I am now caught up in doing the switching in the cheapest way, so two thoughts. 1. Switch off the power to the point motors and use the DPDT switch to change polarity. 2. See if I can use one Autofrog to switch more than one point frog's polarity. I am not sure why this shouldn't work if only one train is using the point system. My thinking is that the train meets one frog and the autofrog changes polarity to this and the next point, and when it then meets the next point, the autofrog changes the polarity again if need be. What I don't understand if the switching is momentary, when the short circuit occurs, or it acts as a switch. Surely the latter otherwise there would be no power in the frog before hand. I use Tam Valley hex frog juicers on some parts of the layout. They are lightening quick and I have been very pleased with them. I also wondered about doing what you suggest in your point 2 above to save a bit of money. However the metal wheels on anything else in the train will also bridge the regular rails to frog rails at each frog along the whole length of a train so everything on a given route needs to be correct at the same time. So once you allow for that I found limited opportunities to take any short cuts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartN Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 Thanks for that. But how about Point 1? I am looking for a neat switch to do it. I presume I only need to switch one of the power feeds to the point motors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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