LNWR/LMS Coaches

[hconn]

I'm attempting to collect some models to model a railway that used to exist near me. It was called the Charnwood Forest Railway and the majority of passenger services ended in 1931, however some did continue as excursion trains until 1951. From the limited pictures available of operations of the line I managed to find the one below which shows the last excursion train at the terminus. I believe I have found a suitable locomotive (in the Bachmann Webb Coal Tank) however I'm struggling to link the image to suitable coaches. I could run it as a freight train as Bachmann do make some wagons featuring the name of the colliery which was at the end of the line, however I have a stronger passion towards passenger movements. With it being in 1951 it is likely the coaches would be LMS, but if anyone is able to find information of the sort of LNWR coaches that would have been used that would be even better. If anyone (by the rare chance) also has any more images of operations along the line, I would greatly appreciate using those to assist in my modelling efforts.

Regards,

Harry

Edited January 4, 2020 by hconn

[trustytrev]

Hello,

       The Mainline models of coach may be suitable.

trustytrev.

 

[hconn]

2 minutes ago, trustytrev said:

Hello,

       The Mainline models of coach may be suitable.

trustytrev.

 

Hi trustytrev, 

I had thought of these as I have two sat on display for use with an old Royal Mail coach. I originally used them in an attempt to judge the length and wheel formation of the picture as they looked similar, but I can't quite tell whether they'd be too long or not. I also wasn't 100% sure if the picture showed corridor or compartment coaches either, hence my reasoning for asking on here (that and I would quite like an LNWR locomotive in my collection!) 

[uax6]

Looking at that photo, its not the easiest to make out the carriages shown, but I'll stick my head up, and without the aid of my LNWR carriage book (which is on the shelf at home) will suggest that the coaches are:
Leading: This looks like a late LNWR vehicle. Its unusual in so much as it looks like it has a pair of double doors at the end behind the loco, which will make it a luggage compartment (no ducket or end windows so not a guards van). It does look like there is a gangway on the leading end, you can just see something by the loco cab.

 

Last: This is certainly an LNWR arc roofed 50ft vehicle. I would surmise that it has guards accommodation (as he has to be somewhere!) and it may be right at the far end behind that door which is open (that may infact be his door). I can't tell if it is gangwayed sadly.

 

In model form you could get away with the ratio LNWR bake vehicle (either as is or butchered to a diagram (if we can find something with an end brake compartment) that is suitable) for the last vehicle, but the leading one is more difficult. There may be a etched kit for something like it, or you will have to scratch build it. Or use one of the ex Mainline LMS standards instead.

 

Andy G

[hconn]

40 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Looking at that photo, its not the easiest to make out the carriages shown, but I'll stick my head up, and without the aid of my LNWR carriage book (which is on the shelf at home) will suggest that the coaches are:
Leading: This looks like a late LNWR vehicle. Its unusual in so much as it looks like it has a pair of double doors at the end behind the loco, which will make it a luggage compartment (no ducket or end windows so not a guards van). It does look like there is a gangway on the leading end, you can just see something by the loco cab.

 

Last: This is certainly an LNWR arc roofed 50ft vehicle. I would surmise that it has guards accommodation (as he has to be somewhere!) and it may be right at the far end behind that door which is open (that may infact be his door). I can't tell if it is gangwayed sadly.

 

In model form you could get away with the ratio LNWR bake vehicle (either as is or butchered to a diagram (if we can find something with an end brake compartment) that is suitable) for the last vehicle, but the leading one is more difficult. There may be a etched kit for something like it, or you will have to scratch build it. Or use one of the ex Mainline LMS standards instead.

 

Andy G

Hi Andy, 

That is both some amazing knowledge and some fantastic news! I shall get searching for that Ratio model and from that I could presume there would be a similar standard coach to match and thus pair them together. 

Regards, 

Harry

[Penlan]

The leading coach is a bit of a mystery....
The only diagram I can see that has 8 compt's is the Dia 262 wide bodied Corridor Lav Third (there were 2 of these), or the narrow bodied version Dia 265, and perhaps the lav's have been replaced with a couple of luggage compt's., but Jenkinson doesn't mention that and I don't have access to the LNWR Society's records to verify if there were any changes, there weren't that many 8 compt, elliptical roof coaches anyway (176).
There's a similar WCJS Coach to Dia 49, which became LNWR Dia., 264A 
A mystery.
 

[sharris]

22 hours ago, hconn said:

Hi Andy, 

That is both some amazing knowledge and some fantastic news! I shall get searching for that Ratio model and from that I could presume there would be a similar standard coach to match and thus pair them together. 

Regards, 

Harry

 

Ratio do 4 LNWR corridor carriages

all 3rd

1st/3rd composite 

Brake composite

brake 3rd? 

[hconn]

42 minutes ago, sharris said:

 

Ratio do 4 LNWR corridor carriages

all 3rd

1st/3rd composite 

Brake composite

brake 3rd? 

 

I had just come across these. However, I don't quite know the best paints to use as all my kit building usually occurs on a 009 scale and on nothing large. Does anyone have any recommendations for paint colours, transfers and/or techniques to use to get the detail and best results?

[RexAshton]

7 hours ago, hconn said:

 

I had just come across these. However, I don't quite know the best paints to use as all my kit building usually occurs on a 009 scale and on nothing large. Does anyone have any recommendations for paint colours, transfers and/or techniques to use to get the detail and best results?

Try Precision Paints for the colours and HMRS for the transfers. I don't know who else may do LNWR transfers.

[sharris]

3 hours ago, RexAshton said:

Try Precision Paints for the colours and HMRS for the transfers. I don't know who else may do LNWR transfers.

 

The date is 1951, so possibly LMS crimson late simple livery that hasn't got around to being repainted, or possibly BR blood and custard - although it may be not be so likely that such an elderly carriage would have got a full BR repaint (see link below). 

 

I didn't notice the date when I originally suggested the ratio carriages - would have to check what still existed of the arc roof 50' stock that late on. 

 

Edit:

Just found one that lasted into the 1950s reportedly in a somewhat unusual livery, having passed through the M&GN. 

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br1823.htm

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by sharris

[hconn]

2 hours ago, sharris said:

 

The date is 1951, so possibly LMS crimson late simple livery that hasn't got around to being repainted, or possibly BR blood and custard - although it may be not be so likely that such an elderly carriage would have got a full BR repaint (see link below). 

 

I didn't notice the date when I originally suggested the ratio carriages - would have to check what still existed of the arc roof 50' stock that late on. 

 

Edit:

Just found one that lasted into the 1950s reportedly in a somewhat unusual livery, having passed through the M&GN. 

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br1823.htm

 

 

I would be looking to paint it in LNWR colours when I do purchase the model. Also, the carriages would still be fine despite the date. They seem to correspond with the line at the time so I would be happy to use them on the model.

[trustytrev]

Hello,

       What about Graham Farish OO gauge LMS Non-Corridor coaches? Look like a good match for the coach nearest the locomotive. Some on ebay at the moment.

trustytrev

[Steamport Southport]

On 06/01/2020 at 12:00, sharris said:

 

The date is 1951, so possibly LMS crimson late simple livery that hasn't got around to being repainted, or possibly BR blood and custard - although it may be not be so likely that such an elderly carriage would have got a full BR repaint (see link below). 

 

I didn't notice the date when I originally suggested the ratio carriages - would have to check what still existed of the arc roof 50' stock that late on. 

 

Edit:

Just found one that lasted into the 1950s reportedly in a somewhat unusual livery, having passed through the M&GN. 

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br1823.htm

 

 

 

I think there is some misunderstanding regarding the livery.

 

If it is in green then it could be Departmental Olive by the description of yellow/green. But that was a later colour from the 1960s.

 

I reckon it could still be in LNER brown which does sometimes look yellowy green depending on light.

 

 

 

Jason

[Jol Wilkinson]

Harry, I am unclear as to what period you are modelling.

 

LNWR Plum and Spilt Milk livery would have very largely disappeared by the end of the 1920's. The earlier 42ft  and 50ft bogie carriages would have been cascaded down to secondary line use, while the larger capacity 57ft carriages lasted well into LMS or early BR days.

The LNWR Society Webbsite has a great deal of useful information. This link leads to the section on Carriage Diagrams, types, etc. which is useful in identifying specific carriages.

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Carriages/Diagrams.php

 

For some idea of which LNWR carriages are available in 4mm as kits (there haven't been any RTR models) take a look at this section.

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmcarriages

 

 

[hconn]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I think there is some misunderstanding regarding the livery.

 

If it is in green then it could be Departmental Olive by the description of yellow/green. But that was a later colour from the 1960s.

 

I reckon it could still be in LNER brown which does sometimes look yellowy green depending on light.

 

 

 

Jason

 

When you say LNER do you mean LNWR ?

 

46 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Harry, I am unclear as to what period you are modelling.

 

LNWR Plum and Spilt Milk livery would have very largely disappeared by the end of the 1920's. The earlier 42ft  and 50ft bogie carriages would have been cascaded down to secondary line use, while the larger capacity 57ft carriages lasted well into LMS or early BR days.

The LNWR Society Webbsite has a great deal of useful information. This link leads to the section on Carriage Diagrams, types, etc. which is useful in identifying specific carriages.

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Carriages/Diagrams.php

 

For some idea of which LNWR carriages are available in 4mm as kits (there haven't been any RTR models) take a look at this section.

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmcarriages

 

 

 

I am looking to model ideally pre-grouping as that was when the railway was at its height, however that image is the only one I could find with any pictures of rolling stock that wasn't an LNWR railcar. Apologies for the confusion!

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, hconn said:

 

When you say LNER do you mean LNWR ?

 

 

Nope. LNER.

 

The carriage in the photo in the link was one used on the M&GNR which was a joint line run by the MR and GNR (later LMS and LNER). Everything went to the LNER in 1936 including locomotives and rolling stock. The carriage has obviously got Eastern Region numbers even though it's origins are LNWR. 

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br1823.htm

 

The LNER painted all non teak carriages brown which when grubby could look like green, which I reckon that the reference to "yellow-green livery" in the photo caption is mistaking for brown. I didn't notice that Philip Millard thinks the same at the bottom (I didn't look down there.....  ). 

 

Some examples here.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches

 

 

 

Jason

[sharris]

6 minutes ago, hconn said:

 

When you say LNER do you mean LNWR ?

 

Apparently the carriage in the link I posted as an example of long-serving arc stock was transferred to the M&GN which for a while after grouping became an LMS/LNER joint venture, but the LNER took control of operations in 1936, so that particular carriage would have ended up LNER - notice the E prefix on the number rather than M when it passed to BR.

 

Of course, pre-grouping, you'll be looking at LNWR, and will need to rely on kit building- your most likely sources are these Ratio kits in plastic, or London Road Model's offerings in brass.

[Steamport Southport]

Wizard Models/51L do some as well. 

 

 

 

Jason

[hconn]

24 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Nope. LNER.

 

The carriage in the photo in the link was one used on the M&GNR which was a joint line run by the MR and GNR (later LMS and LNER). Everything went to the LNER in 1936 including locomotives and rolling stock. The carriage has obviously got Eastern Region numbers even though it's origins are LNWR. 

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_br1823.htm

 

The LNER painted all non teak carriages brown which when grubby could look like green, which I reckon that the reference to "yellow-green livery" in the photo caption is mistaking for brown. I didn't notice that Philip Millard thinks the same at the bottom (I didn't look down there.....  ). 

 

Some examples here.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches

 

 

 

Jason

 

21 minutes ago, sharris said:

 

Apparently the carriage in the link I posted as an example of long-serving arc stock was transferred to the M&GN which for a while after grouping became an LMS/LNER joint venture, but the LNER took control of operations in 1936, so that particular carriage would have ended up LNER - notice the E prefix on the number rather than M when it passed to BR.

 

Of course, pre-grouping, you'll be looking at LNWR, and will need to rely on kit building- your most likely sources are these Ratio kits in plastic, or London Road Model's offerings in brass.

Ahh ok. I was a bit confused for a second when LNER came up!