Mark 3 Sleepers

[Ken.W]

On 19/02/2020 at 00:28, Bomag said:

The information I was given was that if the power car was not supplying the 3 phase ETH to a set it would run at whatever the minimum fuel flow was set to (whether this was to both banks on the Valenta I am not certain). Once they subbed the sleepers with the HST coaches the DVTs never ran below the rpm needed to power the 3 phase ETH.

 

Just caught up on this thread sorry, as its just been revived.

 

An HST power requires the ETS to always be on when the engine's running, even 'light engine', and irrespective of whether supplying ETS to the train.

With ETS on the engine revs at the equivalent of notch 2 power, and no, Valentas didn't have single bank idling.

 

On 19/02/2020 at 11:52, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

I hadn't realised the ETS needed to be on to run the TDM system but I guess it must get its power from somewhere (so from that I'd assume a Mk3 DVT dies quickly if starved of ETH?) and running up the ETS would have been the only option even if trailing and the headlights were not required.

 

ETS was important for a lot more than just the TDM!

All the control systems, lighting, and also the fuel lift pump (that's the one you can see front R/H side of the fuel tank), as these are required before starting the engine, run off the battery supply.

But, crucially, the battery charge is supplied from the ETS, which is why it always needs to be on.

 

So yes, any HST power car dies quickly if starved of ETS, you start losing the controls, including the brake, and then it shuts down (that fuel lift pump), in under two hours.

 

Although this may seem strange at first, having the battery charge off the ETS, it does make sense, as this allows a train to continue in service with one engine shut down, as the 'dead' power car's still getting it's battery charge supply from the other.

 

I remember when the HSTs were new hearing of an incident when a pair of power cars were sent ' light engines' down south from Heaton.

No coaches, so the ETS wasn't turned on...

they didn't make it as far as Selby! (which was still on the main line at that time)

Edited May 16, 2020 by Ken.W

[Ken.W]

On 19/02/2020 at 17:24, caradoc said:

AFAIK sleeper trains were (and still are) timed to run at 80mph but authorised for 100mph if late; Not sure if any message (from Control) was required or if it was just left up to the Driver.

 

 

Getting back to the topic of sleepers, yes, going back to the Mk1s, as well as the Mk3s, the sleepers were always timed at a maximum of 80mph. Both for comfort for passengers to sleep, plus there was no need to arrive at destination in the middle of the night.

If the train was late however, then, as always, " the maximum permitted speed of the train's the permitted speed of the slowest vehicle", and the driver was free to make up time, but this would generally be just to the extent required and bearing in mind the usually more than ample recovery time in the schedules. There was very little, if any at all, direct communication between drivers and control in those days.

 

On the east coast though, we ceased to have anything to do with sleepers after they were "temporarily" transfered to the west coast for the electrification engineering works to take place, so I don't know if any changes to authorising running speeds has taken place since then

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

11 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

Just caught up on this thread sorry, as its just been revived.

 

An HST power requires the ETS to always be on when the engine's running, even 'light engine', and irrespective of whether supplying ETS to the train.

With ETS on the engine revs at the equivalent of notch 2 power, and no, Valentas didn't have single bank idling.

 

 

ETS was important for a lot more than just the TDM!

All the control systems, lighting, and also the fuel lift pump (that's the one you can see front R/H side of the fuel tank), as these are required before starting the engine, run off the battery supply.

But, crucially, the battery charge is supplied from the ETS, which is why it always needs to be on.

 

So yes, any HST power car dies quickly if starved of ETS, you start losing the controls, including the brake, and then it shuts down (that fuel lift pump), in under two hours.

 

Although this may seem strange at first, having the battery charge off the ETS, it does make sense, as this allows a train to continue in service with one engine shut down, as the 'dead' power car's still getting it's battery charge supply from the other.

 

I remember when the HSTs were new hearing of an incident when a pair of power cars were sent ' light engines' down south from Heaton.

No coaches, so the ETS wasn't turned on...

they didn't make it as far as Selby! (which was still on the main line at that time)

Err, yeah- I said that in the message two before the one you quoted!! What was new to me (but made total sense thinking about it) was that in a test formation formed Class 91- scratch rake of SLE/SLEP- HST power car on rear you still needed the power car alive to run the TDM system, clearly on that rake its not making any contribution to tractive effort (nor was it wanted to, the Class 91 was what they wanted to test) and as it wasn't being driven from no auxiliaries were needed so whilst on the back of that rake its just a very heavy tail lamp.

 

Running all the auxiliaries off the battery on a HST power car also had the advantage of clean-ish constant 110v current rather than the variable 415v output, I say clean-ish as it turned out to be anything but when electronic engine governors came for the Mirrlees MB190 trials and a burglar alarm battery had to be installed to feed the governor on those, a work-around later adapted for the Automatic Train Protection equipment electronics.

 

[Grizz]

Bluebell Railway has taken delivery of two more MK3 Sleepers this week, 10605 and 10526.
If you listen carefully you can probably hear the grinding and nashing of teeth from the ‘Flat Earth Brigade’ as they burn their life memberships......

 

Unlike the previous two that arrived by rail earlier in the year, these two arrived by road as they apparently have Long Swing Bogies. Sadly these will, eventually, be stuffed and mounted in a siding somewhere and probably plastered in green paint. It would seem that pretty near anything is just about acceptable providing it is plastered in enough green paint. Obviously, in some parts of the country, the historic value of railways and railway equipment has the abrupt cut off date of the end of main line steam in the UK.

Anything that sneaks past that date will be written out of history by ignoring when it was built and camouflaging it to look like it preceded that ‘end of the universe event’.

If you look really carefully someone has already started to place green leafed branches on the end of 10526 

 

The really sad part is that the B10s will likely be removed and sold on, so ending any hope that in the future another more appreciative owner might be able restore and run them. 

 

 

  

Edited July 18, 2020 by Grizz
Auto correct, late night last night.....

[Gwiwer]

As potential volunteer accommodation these will be a useful asset.  In the present circumstances social distancing can also be achieved easily enough.  They run in traffic on the Night Riviera and will be accepting paying customers there again next month after all.  The condition of the bodies can be gauged from the close-up of the doorway in the lower view - not exactly rot-free.  And they won't be the first Mk3 sleepers in green paint either as the one at Meldon beat them to it by some years - albeit in undercoat the last time I saw it.  

[Grizz]

34 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

As potential volunteer accommodation these will be a useful asset.  In the present circumstances social distancing can also be achieved easily enough.  They run in traffic on the Night Riviera and will be accepting paying customers there again next month after all.  The condition of the bodies can be gauged from the close-up of the doorway in the lower view - not exactly rot-free.  And they won't be the first Mk3 sleepers in green paint either as the one at Meldon beat them to it by some years - albeit in undercoat the last time I saw it.  

Given the right circumstances I agree they can make good accommodation for staff / volunteers. However their location on any given railway would require an adequate, close by, power supply and drainage connection for the loos. Possibly planning permission would be required. The electrical supply would require changing from its standard form and all alterations would have to comply with current regulations. Of course any alterations might be reversible depending on how drastic they have been, however it all costs money.  
Fortunately the days of people kipping in ratty old decomposing coaches looks to be over at most railways. Over the years I have done my fair share of kipping in them, following a hard days work and a fairly heavy liquid session in the evening. 
 

The sad part is that the MK3 Sleepers only ever seem to be viewed as cheap camping solutions rather than any serious desire, on any preserved railway, to value them historically as the last British Rail designed, loco hauled, sleeping coaches. Hence the desire to ‘camouflage’ them and hide them away. With a few exceptions, sadly it would seem that until the ‘Universe Ended in 1968 Mafia’ have died out and we get a more balance view with regard to the preservation of ‘Modern Equipment’ things like MK3 Sleepers will be doomed to fester away, stuffed and mounted in sidings.

[John M Upton]

3 hours ago, Grizz said:

With a few exceptions, sadly it would seem that until the ‘Universe Ended in 1968 Mafia’ have died out and we get a more balance view with regard to the preservation of ‘Modern Equipment’ things like MK3 Sleepers will be doomed to fester away, stuffed and mounted in sidings.

 

Ironically it seems many of the Mk3 Sleepers predecessors, the Mk1's were similarly stuffed and mounted, hardly any saw reuse, the asbestos saw to that.

[Grizz]

19 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

 

Ironically it seems many of the Mk3 Sleepers predecessors, the Mk1's were similarly stuffed and mounted, hardly any saw reuse, the asbestos saw to that.

Yeah I have kipped in a few of those over the years. They used to have one, ‘painted green ‘, at The National Shooting Centre at Bisley., stuffed and mounted on a length of track next to the old platform in the camp. 
 

That’s the best part about the MK3 Sleepers, the lack of huge amounts of asbestos. 
 

The painting it green strategy, even for something fairly modern like a MK3 Sleeper, only ever seems to work one way. 
I’ve not noticed the kettle taliban rushing to paint a Bulleid Pacific in Intercity Executive livery, complete with Red and White stripes and yellow warning panels front And rear. Or a Maunsell coach in Network Southeast ‘Tooth Paste’.....LOL.

[Edwin_m]

It's hard to see how a preserved railway could justify a sleeper, Mk3 or older,  in any other way.  They couldn't use it in day service and I can't see many people booking an overnight trip that involved stopping and shunting the loco to the other end every half hour or so.  I assume the NRM will preserve one eventually, but other than that I would suggest "stuffed, mounted and painted green" is probably the best anyone could expect.  

 

The GCR(N) at Ruddington is one place that has tried to focus on the post-steam era, would obviously have the same problem with running sleepers but they do run Mk2 day stock.  

[Grizz]

I know quite a few who, if given the chance, would do a beer train and then sleep it off in a MK3 sleeper, trundling slowly up and down.
So the traction would have to be worth turning up for, but say an air braked loco, 37 or 47 or whatever, with 3 x MK3 sleepers, And three or four air braked day coaches with a bar. It’s a book in advance job, same as an Ale Train but with over night accommodation built in. I wouldn’t have a problem with the train running round waking me up as I tend to sleep a lot better after a session on the jug. Top and tail it might be an option. 
 

Obviously this would work better on one of the long lines. Some of which have done the odd over night runs before. Even if it was tired as a one off before consigning these sleepers to rot away as camping coaches.

[rodent279]

They'd make rather good camping coaches. 2/3 berths for sleeping, one converted to a shower, rest day room.

[daveyb]

As it was mentioned further up, but a slight diversion, how did the Camping Coaches of old deal with sewerage? I guess that they had gas lighting and cooking as they were unlikely to have electricity run to them.

[298]

On 18/07/2020 at 12:12, Grizz said:

 

The sad part is that the MK3 Sleepers only ever seem to be viewed as cheap camping solutions rather than any serious desire, on any preserved railway, to value them historically as the last British Rail designed, loco hauled, sleeping coaches. Hence the desire to ‘camouflage’ them and hide them away. With a few exceptions, sadly it would seem that until the ‘Universe Ended in 1968 Mafia’ have died out and we get a more balance view with regard to the preservation of ‘Modern Equipment’ things like MK3 Sleepers will be doomed to fester away, stuffed and mounted in sidings.

 

Preserved railways need to follow a business model that until a few months ago meant as many seats as possible in a coach, which is why a MK1 TSO is vastly favoured over a FK. Other support coaches are merely an asset and if don't serve a purpose need to be removed, which is why quite a few railways replaced ropey big four and Mk1 sleepers used for volunteer accommodation with Mk3 SLE when they became available as it was cheaper and easier than sending a sleeper coach through C&W.

 

Having stayed in a Mk3 last year and a Mk1 at the moment, the latter having been completely stripped and rebuilt makes a vastly superior accomodation for the simple reason that it has opening windows, the other being a sealed metal tube with limited openings that would somehow require power hungry working Aircon or a forced air system to make habitable.

 

Unfortunate yes, but we'll probably end up with more Royal Bedz in preservation than normal sleeping coaches....

[WessexEclectic]

Does all this mean that the 'Station Hotel' at Rogart may be in for an upgrade?....

[adb968008]

On 18/07/2020 at 20:36, Grizz said:

I know quite a few who, if given the chance, would do a beer train and then sleep it off in a MK3 sleeper, trundling slowly up and down.
So the traction would have to be worth turning up for, but say an air braked loco, 37 or 47 or whatever, with 3 x MK3 sleepers, And three or four air braked day coaches with a bar. It’s a book in advance job, same as an Ale Train but with over night accommodation built in. I wouldn’t have a problem with the train running round waking me up as I tend to sleep a lot better after a session on the jug. Top and tail it might be an option. 
 

Obviously this would work better on one of the long lines. Some of which have done the odd over night runs before. Even if it was tired as a one off before consigning these sleepers to rot away as camping coaches.

so thats 2 weekends a year, approx 5 vehicles accommodating max 120 people may earn some revenue, whilst requiring 24x7x365 electric supply and preferably kept undercover... Plus they need maintenance and sanitary & hygiene standards maintained for use.

That would be an expensive berth.

Edited July 31, 2020 by adb968008

[Grizz]

On 31/07/2020 at 23:51, adb968008 said:

so thats 2 weekends a year, approx 5 vehicles accommodating max 120 people may earn some revenue, whilst requiring 24x7x365 electric supply and preferably kept undercover... Plus they need maintenance and sanitary & hygiene standards maintained for use.

That would be an expensive berth.

Mmmmm why only two weekends a year? and why electric supply 24x7x 365? Mk1s and 2s don’t need that. Storing outside is no worse than any other vehicle. Why stored undercover? Very few railways have the luxury of berthing stock indoors, although some do. Two of these coaches arrived by rail so were in mainline ticket at the time and had been maintained to mainline standards so would be likely to way outstrip preserved standards for years. Just saying give it a go, rather than just stuffing and mounting them straight away. Or did I get the wrong end of the stick....

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Grizz said:

Mmmmm why only two weekends a year? and why electric supply 24x7x 365? Mk1s and 2s don’t need that. Storing outside is no worse than any other vehicle. Why stored undercover? Very few railways have the luxury of berthing stock indoors, although some do. Two of these coaches arrived by rail so were in mainline ticket at the time and had been maintained to mainline standards so would be likely to way outstrip preserved standards for years. Just saying give it a go, rather than just stuffing and mounting them straight away. Or did I get the wrong end of the stick....

Two weekends a year..

 

heres my rationale..

usually gala’s where lots of enthusiasts visit, and usually want to stay over.

I cant imagine mum/dad families wanting to bed down behind an air braked diesel routinely every weekend, or enough enthusiasts being in town on random weekends to make it viable.

Similarly find crew, station staff, guards, signalmen willing to pull an all nighter every weekend may be difficult too.

 

its not impossible, but I cant see a regular demand for it, unless steam fitted the equation, but most air braked steam locos are mainline approved to earn their crust, 34027 excepted, and all lack electrical supply (a generator van or diesel maybe required).

 

As it is very few lines (maybe only 3 or 4) even offer overnight running at a gala as it is, in normal stock. The most known is the Severn Valley Railway, but they have a fantastically restored Hawksworth Sleeper, but it‘s no brakes and used for staff only, I did ask, I was told they weren't even interested in the slightest possibility of the idea.

A mk3 sleeper only holds 24 dual occupancy, 12 single occupancy, and is longer than an average mk1, add in a catering vehicle and a brake, most lines will struggle to fit more than 4 in a train, so thats 48- 96 passengers... how much can you ask.. £50 per head ?, much more people will stay in a B&B, so all that effort for c£2.5k if its a sell out a 1 per cabin...

 

so lets assume..if top and tailed, to save run rounds, signalmen etc, two diesels using avg 1.5m per gallon, thats say c£10 for 3 miles (assume red diesel at 47p a litre) , and a line like SVR (16 miles) could manage 5 trips a night, thats 160 miles, for c£500, before hire fees, and other costs, plus maintaing mk3’s and cleaning the bedding & compartments, and toilet tanks etc.

 

finally, neighbours of lines, may just not like the local steam railway running 24 hours a day regularly, on a weekend / sunday morning.

 

mk3’s are air braked and air conditioned, sealed units. They will grow mould if left with out ac and air circulation if left unused for long periods, leave them with open windows, they will get damp, infestations etc, including on the electrics, which is more substantial than an ordinary mk1. it’s one thing to sit on a lice infested seat for an hour, to sleeping in a bed with it for 12 hours.. sanitation requirements are higher.

As they are compartments I would imagine they are more susceptible to smelling, occupants venting various vapours, odours all night. Without AC on a summers night they would be pungent, much more than open mk3 FO/TSOs, hence my thoughts they would need better than average tlc over the long term.

Short term if left to rot, will do just as the mk1 sleepers did.. get rotten, maybe faster, but when its staff only and staff have to self service their accommodations then its less of a cost to the host line, they are out of sight and can rot away, attached to a shore supply and plumbed into drainage without needing to be maintained to use and cost much less than a purpose built building, without planning permission requirements.

 

There are some mk3 sleepers used on services like royal scotsman, but note they have had some windows replaced with vents, and are used much more often.

 

fwiw, mk3 sleepers were actually used on a railtour charter, just recently, I was on it.. it went from Paddington around the Greenford loop to Paddington with top and tailed 57’s during the Southall steam railmotor event, it was also the only time a class 150 sprinter entered London on the GWML.. it went on charters on the Colnbrook branch. Interesting weekend, GWR are good at organising these kinds of events, but it wasnt overnight and the sleepers hadn't been serviced since they arrived from Penzance that morning.. only 18 hours or so before.. they already smelled sweaty and rank.

never say never, a quick look at the vct carriage survey shows over 52 mk3 sleepers preserved (+ 6 scrapped), and that doesnt include many of those recently preserved from CS.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by adb968008

[Grizz]

Mmmmmmm yep you’re right....so upon reflection, cut em up or stuff and mount em. They are only BR stuff anyway. 

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Grizz said:

Mmmmmmm yep you’re right....so upon reflection, cut em up or stuff and mount em. They are only BR stuff anyway. 

So how would you do it ?

 

The most likely outcome is LSL putting a sleeper set together, they already have done one vehicle, it was used on a private charter last month with 87002 and 90002 from/to Euston & Crewe, it’s looking like they might put a charter slep rake together. If they do, then overnight railtour add ons could be good business for them, especially if anything results from Springburn, with Scottish morning tour starts being possible, from Friday nights in London.

 

[Grizz]

My solution is.....all about managing the usual short term expectations. In this era of Who GAF, I’d cut em up. Scrap em. Suffem and mount em. And Definitely scrap the B10s, just to make sure!!!
Obviously no one has any resources to do anything else, these days. They are only “modern” nasty air braked, ETH, coaches, so what does it matter. More importantly it is not a precious kettle, because they are massively under represented in preservation, and it’s not green or red or blood n custard Or choc and cream and so it’s not relevant. Maybe those who who feel so resentful at seeing their precious kettles and associated stock being scrapped, back in the day, will get their ‘grinding’ satisfaction from seeing their BR replacements being scrapped, ruined or festering beyond repair on some siding somewhere.
 

like I said “Who GAF”.........ain’t no will then ain’t no way.

 

 

 

[newbryford]

What's wrong with painting them green?

Pic from flickr.

 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, newbryford said:

What's wrong with painting them green?

Pic from flickr.

 

 

Quote

it’s not green or red or blood n custard Or choc and cream and so it’s not relevant. 

Northampton, July 2020.

(I believe its owner includes precious kettles too in his collection and many very modern image railway items, including a HST, 90, 87, 86 etc etc ).

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by adb968008

[newbryford]

(Almost) Choc and cream. (Burnt Umber)

 

Pic from flickr

 

[newbryford]

According to wnxx.com, I see long term Doncaster resident 96374 (ex-Mk3 sleeper, but later EPS ETS generator) is on the move to Great Yarmouth for  a return to "serviceable condition".

 

I wonder if this has anything to do with the rumour of more HST power cars for test train use?

[Macforrest]

On 18/07/2020 at 12:12, Grizz said:

Given the right circumstances I agree they can make good accommodation for staff / volunteers. However their location on any given railway would require an adequate, close by, power supply and drainage connection for the loos. Possibly planning permission would be required. The electrical supply would require changing from its standard form and all alterations would have to comply with current regulations. Of course any alterations might be reversible depending on how drastic they have been, however it all costs money.  
Fortunately the days of people kipping in ratty old decomposing coaches looks to be over at most railways. Over the years I have done my fair share of kipping in them, following a hard days work and a fairly heavy liquid session in the evening. 
 

The sad part is that the MK3 Sleepers only ever seem to be viewed as cheap camping solutions rather than any serious desire, on any preserved railway, to value them historically as the last British Rail designed, loco hauled, sleeping coaches. Hence the desire to ‘camouflage’ them and hide them away. With a few exceptions, sadly it would seem that until the ‘Universe Ended in 1968 Mafia’ have died out and we get a more balance view with regard to the preservation of ‘Modern Equipment’ things like MK3 Sleepers will be doomed to fester away, stuffed and mounted in sidings.

SLEP 10542 is currently undergoing roof repairs at WSR. It will be used (in the short term) as volunteer accommodation at Bishops Lydeard but the intention in the longer term is to preserve it in the condition in which it left service in 2019. It will remain in Caledonian sleeper livery and some cabins will be restored to their revenue earning service appearance.

 

Already it has undergone a preliminary internal strip and clean, with restoration begun on some of the  fittings found to be in poor condition.

 

Bo'ness & Kinneil Railway/Museum of Scottish Railways also have a project underway to exhibit their example of this type of vehicle alongside earlier sleeping carriages.

 

Didcot Railway centre have utilised their expert volunteers to quickly get their Mk3 up and running as accommodation minimal modification to the electrical systems to provide the motor alternator with a direct supply (415v 3-phase) and the systems do the rest to supply the correct voltages to the fire alarm system, low level lighting, air-con and cabin lighting. WSR are looking at similar modifications.