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Mark 3 Sleepers


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The five (from memory) sleepers converted to generator vans were ex Western Region and had been damaged, but not derailed. They had been stored at Wembley Depot.

When InterCity were approached by the Channel Tunnel train service people about suitable vehicles to become generator vans, I personally took them around Wembley to look at the vehicles.

When the Channel Tunnel person mentioned the need to get rid of the underfloor equipment and skirt panels, I pointed out that the concrete block had already done most of that......

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On 05/01/2020 at 19:03, phil-b259 said:

 

IIRC a large amount of that delay was caused by the 1978 Taunton Sleeper fire which killed 12 people by smoke inhalation. As I understand it the outcome of the official report required a complete re-think of virtually all aspects of the coach interiors and delayed production signifficantly

 

Yes, there were to have 236 Mk3 sleepers in total, but the additional safety features required from the Taunton enquiry meant a delay and each were more expensive, so the order was reduced to 210 to stay within the original funding agreement. The decision was helped by business forecast being revised down due to the recession. This explains the gap between SLEP 10619 and SLE 10646.

 

According to a contemporary Modern Railways mag, introduction to service was from 10 January 1982, with the ECML due to get 100, WCML 85, Bristol-ScR 15, and WoE 10 cars allocated. The KX - Aberdeen route received the Mk3s first, followed by the other ECML long haul destinations, and then the WCML services, with the Bristol-ScR and West of England services last.

 

On the ECML there were 8 rakes to cover the 4 trains in each direction, each made up of 5 pairs of SLE and SLEP, with a BG added. I remember around 1983 there being quite a lengthy stop at York in the early hours, when rakes of Mk3 Sleepers from north and south seemed to arrive in a rush. It made quite a sight in those days to see so much new and clean kit in one place.

 

There does seem to be one at every Heritage railway these days, does anyone know how many survive in total?

 

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17 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

 

Yes, there were to have 236 Mk3 sleepers in total, but the additional safety features required from the Taunton enquiry meant a delay and each were more expensive, so the order was reduced to 210 to stay within the original funding agreement. The decision was helped by business forecast being revised down due to the recession. This explains the gap between SLE 10619 and SLEP 10646.

 

According to a contemporary Modern Railways mag, introduction to service was from 10 January 1982, with the ECML due to get 100, WCML 85, Bristol-ScR 15, and WoE 10 cars allocated. The KX - Aberdeen route received the Mk3s first, followed by the other ECML long haul destinations, and then the WCML services, with the Bristol-ScR and West of England services last.

 

On the ECML there were 8 rakes to cover the 4 trains in each direction, each made up of 5 pairs of SLE and SLEP, with a BG added. I remember around 1983 there being quite a lengthy stop at York in the early hours, when rakes of Mk3 Sleepers from north and south seemed to arrive in a rush. It made quite a sight in those days to see so much new and clean kit in one place.

 

 

Which pool of sleepers did the internal ScR sleepers come from? And how many sleepers does GWR have now? Does it have a similar number still to the 10 at introduction? 

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39 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

Which pool of sleepers did the internal ScR sleepers come from? And how many sleepers does GWR have now? Does it have a similar number still to the 10 at introduction? 

 

I imagine the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Perth-Inverness sleeper would have remained Mk1 until they stopped running in 1984. Inverness and Fort William were served off the Euston trains with Mk3s (and ETHels) from 1983. I don't know much about modern operations but it seems the Night Rivieria uses 8 or 9 sleepers per night in total. I guess they would need 3 or 4 spare too.

 

 

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On 07/01/2020 at 11:32, dvdlcs said:

As the SLEPs had a pantry (the P) and the SLEs did not, if there was only one sleeper coach on the train it would (should) be a SLEP. When there was more than one sleeper, they would normally be paired SLEP+SLE so that one pantry served two coaches.

 

Therefore it is interesting that they cancelled 26 SLEPs - presumably that would have led to a shortage of pantries compared to non-pantry coaches? Or were more SLEPs than SLEs going to be built (for the single coach scenario) and the cancellation evened the numbers out?

 

[Answering my own question: SLEPs I think were 10500-10619 (120 vehicles) whereas SLEs were 10646-10732 (87 vehicles). So still enough for SLE+SLEP pairs and individual SLEPs.]

 

On another note, some of the Mk3 sleepers ended up in preservation while still fairly young. I can remember going to Bo'ness and seeing a Mk3 sleeper in InterCity livery parked there (don't remember which version of IC livery), but looking very odd as it was sitting (perched?) on a pair of B1 bogies - presumably BR (as it was at the time) still needed all of the BT10s.

They also kept the doors in some instances,  I recall seeing the one now at Bodmin parked up on a low loader at Gordano services on the M5 when helping out on a motor sport event and a few guys climbed inside to have a look.  IIRC that coach ended up with different bogies at each end, seem to recall one was a Commonwealth and the other a B4

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6 hours ago, stovepipe said:

The Night Rivieria uses 8 or 9 sleepers per night in total. I guess they would need 3 or 4 spare too.

 

 


From my notes, the Night Riviera for 2019 is formed as follows;

 

Mk 3B - BUO (Similar to a HST TGS) - Country End

Mk 3A - TSO

Mk 3A - RFB

Mk 3A - SLEP

Mk 3A - SLEP

Mk 3A - SLEP - City or London End

 

An additional SLEP might be added during the summer season.

Edited by jools1959
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3 hours ago, jools1959 said:


From my notes, the Night Riviera for 2019 is formed as follows;

 

Mk 3B - BUO (Similar to a HST TGS) - Country End

Mk 3A - TSO

Mk 3A - RFB

Mk 3A - SLEP

Mk 3A - SLEP

Mk 3A - SLEP - City or London End

 

An additional SLEP might be added during the summer season.

Four SLEPs is now the norm as business has improved through better marketing.  Five can be found on the busier Thursday / Friday trains and at times for stock balancing purposes.  The Mk3b BUOs can sometimes run in pairs to cover for a missing TSO.  Seating is not normally full so it makes little difference and even less so now that the Night Riviera no longer picks up passengers west of Plymouth going down nor sets them down coming up.  

 

10532/4/63/84/9/90/4/6, 10601/12/6 form the PZ-based fleet along with Mk3b BUO 17173-5, Mk3a TSO 12100/42/61 and Mk3 RFB 10219/25.

 

Mk3 sleeping cars are longer than Mk1 vehicles and were ordered IIRC on the basis of "10 for 12" which would have reduced the total sleeping car fleet overall irrespective of the sharp downturn in traffic being experienced at the time.  That affected night services more so than daytime ones as it became less socially acceptable to spend the night sleeping in the close company of strangers (either sharing a compartment or across seats in what ever manner one could find - bagging the entire bench seat of a Mk1 compartment was favoured with the blinds then lowered to indicate to others that the compartment was occupied.

 

More SLEPs than SLEs were required because numerous services or portions required only a few sleeping cars.  The normal distribution would have been one steward per two adjacent coaches.  GWR still run this way despite having an all-SLEP fleet; not all pantries remain in use and the RFB is used to provide cooked breakfasts.  Where business required an odd number of sleeping cars such as the three each of the Inverness - Glasgow / Edinburgh train then two SLEPs were required and two stewards per portion because one could not service three cars.  

 

Train speeds also played a part in the decline of overnight travel.  With the advent of 100mph running - and later 125mph on the ECML and parts of the GW empire - trains could reach some destinations early enough in the morning for business travel without the need to spend a night aboard.  This was part of the reason behind the demise of London - Liverpool / Manchester and London - Leeds / Sunderland / Newcastle sleepers.  Traffic to and from the ferry ports also dwindled and being woken at 2 or 3 am to change from sleeping car to ship at the likes of Holyhead or Fishguard Harbour was no longer an attractive option.  The relocation of ferries from some ports to other locations not served directly by rail also killed sleeping car trains such as the Stranraer working which, in it latter days, had been SLEP, SLE, TSO and BSO detached from one of the Glasgow / Edinburgh trains.  The last time I used it only three passengers alighted at Stranraer and two of those were clearly "bashers" out for the track / haulage as we both crossed straight over for the Up Glasgow waiting in the other platform!  

 

Mk1 sleeping cars lasted longer than they might have done but I believe were insulated with asbestos which eventually required their urgent withdrawal.  The cost of removing that substance is also the reason very few have survived in preservation.  They served well but had become dated.  The communal "potty" for nocturnal use which tucked under the sink was far from ideal and lacked any form of privacy in a shared compartment.  Window frames had distorted and in some cases the window - which was lowered for ventilation of the compartment - could not be fully closed.  A friend once endured a Euston - Inverness trip with the window jammed half open and reported upon how noisy and draughty that made his sleepless night.  Air conditioning, dimmable lighting, modern plumbing and suspension have made for a much-improved travel experience even if it is necessary to walk to the carriage end should one require the facilities during the night.  

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48 minutes ago, keefer said:

I think there was a Glasgow QS - Aberdeen service which used a mk3 sleeper. There wasn't a balancing working so the sleeper returned the next day in one of the mk2 a/c push-pulls.

Correct.  A single SLEP was used.  It returned locked out of use by day.  The Barrow - Euston sleeper was another such which (when I used it) had just two sleeping cars, one sitter and a couple of vans though the formation was changed at several stops through the night.  The sleeping car went back down empty on an afternoon service.  

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3 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Tangent subject- does anyone make the replacement SLE/SLEP coach ends for the OO Lima or Hornby models? Hurst used to do a resin "paint it and swap it over" replacement end incorporating the built in lights, their website (last updated 11 years ago) lists this item but out of stock.

 

I read on here a while back (chinese whispers maybe?) that Hurst models was a sideline & the owner's primary job has now taken priority.

This seems entirely plausible given the lack of update for some time.

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On 06/01/2020 at 23:30, John M Upton said:

The Nightstar generator conversions never saw their intended use did they?  What happened to them?

 

On 10/01/2020 at 20:39, Mark Saunders said:

 

There is one at Doncaster Works and was visible from the station till recently !

 

A quick check of records - hopefully correct.

96374 is at Doncaster - or was when I saw it in December

96372/3/5 are at Long Marston. 96371 is at UK Rail Leicester, previously at Wembley.

 

 

Flickr pic

 

EPS generator van 96374

 

 

WCRC at Carnforth have taken delivery of 5 Mk3 sleepers. 10703/10718/10598/10614/10610

Reported as spares/parts for the Northern Belle fleet.

Edited by newbryford
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always had an interest in the sleepers during the 70s and 80s.  seems people prefer the ride and comfort of the old Mk3s over the newer mk5 sleepers.......

 

i remember travelling on a Bristol Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper dep BNS at 23.55 around 1980 hauled by an class 83.   back then it mk1 sleepers.  remember the bristle like corridor carpet......spent too long with my nose against one of the corridor windows instead of inside the compo. 

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Finally got back to my archive. 

My 1981 RCTS coaching stock book has

 

SLEP lot 30960

10500-10645 

(total 146 vehicles, amended in pencil to 120)

 

SLE lot 30961

10646-10705

(total 90 vehicles)

 

Pencil notes show SLEP 10620-10645 cancelled (and none cancelled from the SLE batch).

 

The initial (proposed) allocations by prefix were shown as a mix of E, SC, M and W for both batches, except no SLE cars for the W. 

But the pencil alterations (presumably the amendment to the order) show no SC ones, and a reallocation of many of the others.

 

Originally (as printed in 1981 RCTS book):

E 10500-543; 10646-681

SC 10544-556; 10682-693

M 10557-617; 10694-735

W 10618-645; no SLEs

 

Revised (as printed in§ 1982 RCTS book):

E 10500-553; 10646-691

M 10554-602; 10692-727

W 10603-619; 10728-735

 

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1986 P5 book only has BN, WB & EC for sleepers

Of the 1982 WR allocation given by eastwestdivide: 10603-7 WB, 10608-19 EC, 10728-32 BN, 10733-35 not listed

 

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On 11/01/2020 at 05:56, stovepipe said:

 

There does seem to be one at every Heritage railway these days, does anyone know how many survive in total?

 


126 out of the 210 if my records are correct (including the generators, one remaining royal and one departmental).

 

I may have missed some of the most recent disposals...

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14 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

What depot were the W region ones based at? My earliest book (1988) shows them all being at WB in one big pool shared with WCML examples.

Thats right. The Western used Willesden Brent allocated vehicles - there were ecs moves between Willesden Brent and Paddington.

On 11/01/2020 at 01:20, stovepipe said:

 

I imagine the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Perth-Inverness sleeper would have remained Mk1 until they stopped running in 1984. Inverness and Fort William were served off the Euston trains with Mk3s (and ETHels) from 1983. I don't know much about modern operations but it seems the Night Rivieria uses 8 or 9 sleepers per night in total. I guess they would need 3 or 4 spare too.

 

 

Internal Scottish trains carried on running until much later - IIRC they didnt stop until loco hauled services went over to 158 traction. I certainly used the EDB/GLC - INV service during the Summer of 1988.

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Just found my 1984 (Ian Allan/RCTS) and 1986  (Ian Allan) books.

 

The 1984 book shows only prefixes:

SLEP

E 10500-534, 10571-589, 10593

M 10535-570, 10590-592, 10594-595, 10604, 10607 

W 10596-603, 10605-606, 10608-619

 

SLE

E 10646-665, 10668-672, 10678-680, 10682-10691, 

M 10666-667, 10673-677, 10681, 10692-727

W 10728-735

 

The 1986 book has prefixes and depots (BN - Bounds Green, WB - WIllesden Brent, EC - Edinburgh Craigentinny):

SLEP

E (at BN) 10500-534, 10570-575, 10580

M (at WB) 10535-569, 10582-607

SC (at EC) 10576-579, 10581, 10608-619

 

SLE

E (at BN) 10646-665, 10668-672, 10722-732

M (at WB) 10666-667, 10673-715, 10720-721

SC (at EC) 10716-719

 

And a note that the vehicles intended to be 10734/5 are now Royal 2914/2915

No mention of 10733, missing from the listings.

 

So quite a bit of change to deal with!

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