Mark 3 Sleepers

[royaloak]

19 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

They could be SLEDs, last time I looked the NR did not have the same level of disabled provision as the Scotrail trains (presumably on the basis of the lower usage making it not practicable).

The 2 that were dropped off at Laira were both SLEP (10551 and 10553), the other coach was taken to Long Marston this morning by the 50s, that was an SLE(D) 10706.

Edited January 23, 2020 by royaloak

[Gwiwer]

Currently the Penzance allocation is only SLEP so 10551/3 might indeed be to strengthen the fleet.

[Grizz]

The new order arrives....and this is about as modern as it gets for Bluebell Railway anyway. Never thought I’d see MK3 sleepers in Sussex!!! Shame of it is they arrived by rail and remain main line certified but will never go back on the network again. Out will come the green paint and they will probably become static sleeping. 

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, Grizz said:

The new order arrives....and this is about as modern as it gets for Bluebell Railway anyway. Never thought I’d see MK3 sleepers in Sussex!!! Shame of it is they arrived by rail and remain main line certified but will never go back on the network again. Out will come the green paint and they will probably become static sleeping. 

 

I'd concerned about the amount of real estate owned by the Bluebell if they weren't static and they intend on running sleeper services.

 

If the Mk3s are going to preserved lines I guess any thought of internal sleeper operation in Scotland again has gone.

[Grizz]

38 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I'd concerned about the amount of real estate owned by the Bluebell if they weren't static and they intend on running sleeper services.

 

If the Mk3s are going to preserved lines I guess any thought of internal sleeper operation in Scotland again has gone.

 

Haha yeah the line isn’t quite long enough to need sleeper trains. 

 

The sad thing is that unlike steam era preservation or even first generation diesel / mk1 / mk2 stock preservation, the preservation of MK3 sleepers / loco hauled mk3s are unlikely to see much real use on preserved railways. An given the ETH needs / compatibility etc there perhaps won’t be very many saved anyway. Just the odd few scattered around the country. 

 

It is probably fair to say that with the unit based railway the UK now has, hardly anything will be kept and more importantly run in the future as the era of loco hauled coaches really ended with the MK3. (Mk4s being almost fixed units). 

 

 

[25901]

7 hours ago, Grizz said:

The new order arrives....and this is about as modern as it gets for Bluebell Railway anyway. Never thought I’d see MK3 sleepers in Sussex!!! Shame of it is they arrived by rail and remain main line certified but will never go back on the network again. Out will come the green paint and they will probably become static sleeping. 

 

 

How times have changed at the Bluebell, class 66's and Mk 3 sleepers. Next you'll be say there's a diesel depot going up and a fleet of 142's arriving to do mid week services

[nightstar.train]

7 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I'd concerned about the amount of real estate owned by the Bluebell if they weren't static and they intend on running sleeper services.

 

If the Mk3s are going to preserved lines I guess any thought of internal sleeper operation in Scotland again has gone.

 

I’m not sure how serious the internal Scottish sleepers proposal ever was. But as soon as the sleeper went over to Mk5s all the Mk 2 and 3 stock was very rapidly dispersed, so it won’t happen now. 

[Gwiwer]

The Scottish internal sleeper was on borrowed time when Mk3 stock was introduced.  Accelerations to the daytime services were already possible through line speed improvements and the use of class 47 (95mph) instead of class 26 / 27 (85mph) traction.  Earlier morning arrivals were possible to all the major cities served negating the need for what was always an unnecessarily slow overnight trip.  The journey time on the overnight from Glasgow / Edinburgh took account of the shunting time at Perth where portions were attached / split and a need (which had vanished over the years) for extended stops to uplift and set down mails and newspapers.  

 

As with some internal English services faster schedules combined with the drift towards the passenger-only railway made some operations archaic and unremunerative.  In certain cases a compromise has been reached if no good alternative could be offered such as the ongoing arrangement with Serco whereby the London - Inverness sleeper uplifts passengers in the early morning at Kingussie, Aviemore and Carr Bridge for Inverness.  

 

 

[Grizz]

48 minutes ago, 25901 said:

 

How times have changed at the Bluebell, class 66's and Mk 3 sleepers. Next you'll be say there's a diesel depot going up and a fleet of 142's arriving to do mid week services

 

Yep sounds great. There hasn't been a loco stabling point on the Central Division since Three Bridges Yard closed. 

 

Horsted Keynes TMD anyone? 

 

Not too sure about the 142s though. Cheap and nasty from the outset and they haven't improved with age.....

 

How about an HST set with short swing bogies, using BBR as a base for rail tours???

 

I suspect that the appearance of the two MK3 sleepers at BBR will have caused the 'flat earth brigade' to have burned their life memberships in protest! 

 

Before they become permanent static sleeping facilities it should have been possible to run a couple of special event over night sleeper trains using the air braked 09 and the one air braked mk1. Fill the mk1 with a bar / beer and I'd have definitely been there!!! 

 

Sadly the future for these two is static and almost certainly green paint will be involved! It seems that as long as it is painted green it won't matter as much. Imagine the same justification for painting a West Country class into Intercity Swallow livery....lol

 

 

[montyburns56]

I think I've worked out why the sleeper services have to be so heavily subsidized....

[Grizz]

1 hour ago, montyburns56 said:

I think I've worked out why the sleeper services have to be so heavily subsidized....

 

Lol. 6000 hp on 46 tons, wow. Pretty good off the mark, but not much top end....

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, 25901 said:

 

How times have changed at the Bluebell, class 66's and Mk 3 sleepers. Next you'll be say there's a diesel depot going up and a fleet of 142's arriving to do mid week services

3rd rail.... 

3rd rail....

3rd rail....

[Grizz]

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

3rd rail.... 

3rd rail....

3rd rail....

 

Oddly enough if the 3rd rail was at Horsted Keynes that is something that even the 'Flat Earthers' couldn't object to....

 

there is actually a short piece at Horsted which is used for training purposes.

 

377s to Sheffield Park. And Bluebell already own a 4VEP.

[Co-tr-Paul]

On 23/01/2020 at 21:19, Gwiwer said:

Currently the Penzance allocation is only SLEP so 10551/3 might indeed be to strengthen the fleet.

The 3 106xx vehicles have esy access berth and toilet. 11 berths.

SLEPD.

[Grizz]

Here is an unusual one. Andy Gibbs’ pages are legendary, and this is just a tiny cut of a photo show and Blue and Grey MK3 sleeper at Hayward’s Heath on the Central Division of the then BR Southern Region, with polystyrene gauging blocks glued to the roof. As I remember this was to check if the MK3 sleepers in the Royal Train would be clearer for the route to Brighton and the branches.

Polystyrene blocks were the height of technology back then and obviously the weapon of choice when checking the end throw and centre throw against structure clearances of a 75ft MK3 coach. 

 

Off the back of this perhaps we could have had a Brighton to Scotland sleeper service, we had loco hauled intercity day services to Scotland, at least we did until Virgin rocked up and the government let them get rid of them. Gits!. 

 

 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

32 minutes ago, Grizz said:

Here is an unusual one. Andy Gibbs’ pages are legendary, and this is just a tiny cut of a photo show and Blue and Grey MK3 sleeper at Hayward’s Heath on the Central Division of the then BR Southern Region, with polystyrene gauging blocks glued to the roof. As I remember this was to check if the MK3 sleepers in the Royal Train would be clearer for the route to Brighton and the branches.

Polystyrene blocks were the height of technology back then and obviously the weapon of choice when checking the end throw and centre throw against structure clearances of a 75ft MK3 coach. 

 

Off the back of this perhaps we could have had a Brighton to Scotland sleeper service, we had loco hauled intercity day services to Scotland, at least we did until Virgin rocked up and the government let them get rid of them. Gits!. 

 

 

I think you'll find it was the SRA that told Virgin to curtail the Cross-Country largess to save money- hence Brighton, Portsmouth, Swansea, Liverpool and others were dropped from the Cross Country network. Apart from wacky test runs and royalty I think the only loco hauled Mk3's ever to grace Southern Metals in normal service were the Poole portion of the Cross-Country sleeper and that was after someone invented SSL bogies to get around the restrictions on the use of original BT10 bogies around the juice rail.

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by fiftyfour fiftyfour

[Grizz]

26 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

I think you'll find it was the SRA that told Virgin to curtail the Cross-Country largess to save money- hence Brighton, Portsmouth, Swansea, Liverpool and others were dropped from the Cross Country network. Apart from wacky test runs and royalty I think the only loco hauled Mk3's ever to grace Southern Metals in normal service were the Poole portion of the Cross-Country sleeper and that was after someone invented SSL bogies to get around the restrictions on the use of original BT10 bogies around the juice rail.

 

 

54 54, I stand corrected. Ah the SRA....what a wonderful organisation. I suppose the manic drive to get rid of ‘old fashion’ loco hauled trains and more importantly the facilities they need from the uk network and to make us a unit only railway has made the running of any such surviving services, or worse still any potential new services, even more expensive and probably not viable. 

 

Totally agree, apart from Poole I can’t remember any scheduled mk3s workings appearing on either the Central or South Eastern divisions of the old BR Southern Region. 

 

On another forum I recently asked what percentage of all MK3 stock / Sleepers / HSTs were fitted with SSL bogies and of these are there any complete HST sets that are still so fitted? Didn’t really get the answer I was looking for. 

 

The reason for asking was if there are going to be HSTs / loco hauled mk3s / sleepers etc preserved and hopefully then running rail tours etc on the national network and preserved railways (where gauging permits) it would make sense for them to have the greatest route availability. I would pay a goodly amount of dosh to travel around the Southeast of England (Kent, East Sussex and West Sussex etc) with beer on HSTs etc. 

 

Now those two MK3 sleepers have been gauged down to Sheffield Park on Bluebell it ought to be possible to run down there and back. Top and tail 66s came down from the Severn Valley and it was quite successful. They even brought a cask of ale from the Bridgenorth brewery.

 

Beer and Mk3s from the the Bluebell, Hell Yeah I’ll have some of that............although I could well end up being burned as this years Guy Fawkes at Newick bonfire for suggesting such heresy!!!

 

Still the fight has to start somewhere......up the rebels

 

 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

9 minutes ago, Grizz said:

 

54 54, I stand corrected. Ah the SRA....what a wonderful organisation. I suppose the manic drive to get rid of ‘old fashion’ loco hauled trains and more importantly the facilities they need from the uk network and to make us a unit only railway has made the running of any such surviving services, or worse still any potential new services, even more expensive and probably not viable. 

 

Totally agree, apart from Poole I can’t remember any scheduled mk3s workings appearing on either the Central or South Eastern divisions of the old BR Southern Region. 

 

On another forum I recently asked what percentage of all MK3 stock / Sleepers / HSTs were fitted with SSL bogies and of these are there any complete HST sets that are still so fitted? Didn’t really get the answer I was looking for. 

 

The reason for asking was if there are going to be HSTs / loco hauled mk3s / sleepers etc preserved and hopefully then running rail tours etc on the national network and preserved railways (where gauging permits) it would make sense for them to have the greatest route availability. I would pay a goodly amount of dosh to travel around the Southeast of England (Kent, East Sussex and West Sussex etc) with beer on HSTs etc. 

 

Now those two MK3 sleepers have been gauged down to Sheffield Park on Bluebell it ought to be possible to run down there and back. Top and tail 66s came down from the Severn Valley and it was quite successful. They even brought a cask of ale from the Bridgenorth brewery.

 

Beer and Mk3s from the the Bluebell, Hell Yeah I’ll have some of that............although I could well end up being burned as this years Guy Fawkes at Newick bonfire for suggesting such heresy!!!

 

Still the fight has to start somewhere......up the rebels

 

 

From a HST trailer point of view EVERYTHING that Cross-Country ran from 1991-2003 had SSL bogies and a good percentage of the GWR fleet got them as well. It's very hard to nail down an exact number as bogies are swapped around all the time when they come off for overhaul and are replaced meaning that vehicles labelled or on the system as SSL may very well not be and SSL bogies ended up under EMR and LNER trailers unlikely to see a juice rail. GWR was keeping a bit more on top of this and went through a campaign of physically examining their vehicles as knowing which were SSL became relevant to them ahead of pre-planned diversions of HSTs into Waterloo and summer Saturday operation to Weymouth, the latter train was once subject to a last minute set-swap before departure from Bristol when a visual check revealed LSL bogies in the planned set.

 

Getting route clearance for such jollies is super tough these days, basically if you cannot prove to NR that Mk3's have been there before then forget it; they tried rejecting Skegness as a route until EMT (as they were then) persisted and proved it, same went for Carlton Road to Harringey via Crouch Hill.

[Gwiwer]

43 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

vehicles labelled or on the system as SSL may very well not be

Witness the incidence of an HST (iirc) at Reading due to depart for Exeter via Basingstoke and Salisbury for some reason.  Until a sharp-eyed person spotted that at least one vehicle was not equiopped with SSLs and therefore passage over the electrified metals between Basingstoke and Worting might have been rather an electrifying experience.  

[Grizz]

Wow thanks for the info, a lot more complicated than I thought. I suppose that it would have been easier for BR to keep on top of which bogies were fitted as it was one organisation, albeit split into regions. It must be much harder for separate private companies / ROSCOs and as you say the only sets that really required them were cross country sets. 

 

Rail tours seem to be viewed by some industry ‘high ups’ as a nuisance and something that should definitely not be encouraged. 

 

With digital track geometry and structure gauging software it ought to be easier to accurately measure clearances and maintain an up to date register of what stock is permitted on which routes. You would think....

 

Spose it is just easier to say no to everything that hasn’t run on a particular route before and be as difficult as possible dealing with enquiries. Then, most importantly, charge as much as possible to finally, begrudgingly, do a survey and permit a path. Thus discouraging as many people as possible from applying. Or am I being too cynical??? 

 

It is after all these days only about making money. 

 

Still I live in hope as the royal train train MK3s once went to Brighton and were stabled over night on the Ardingly branch, so it should be possible to at least run them down some routes of the Central division

 

 

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Witness the incidence of an HST (iirc) at Reading due to depart for Exeter via Basingstoke and Salisbury for some reason.  Until a sharp-eyed person spotted that at least one vehicle was not equiopped with SSLs and therefore passage over the electrified metals between Basingstoke and Worting might have been rather an electrifying experience.  

 

As I understand it, under normal conditions there was no way the LSL suspension would come into contact with the 3rd rail.

 

Rather it is the case that IF one or both of the airbag suspensions became defective then there was a possibility - (please note - by no mens a certainty) that the suspension components might come into contact with the 3rd rail.

 

[Gwiwer]

Quite correct.  The requirement for SSL bogies was a case of reducing risk in a worst-case scenario.  

[royaloak]

20 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Witness the incidence of an HST (iirc) at Reading due to depart for Exeter via Basingstoke and Salisbury for some reason.  Until a sharp-eyed person spotted that at least one vehicle was not equipped with SSLs and therefore passage over the electrified metals between Basingstoke and Worting might have been rather an electrifying experience.  

The number of things which would need to be in place or to happen for an LSL vehicle to be an issue on the CRE network are phenomenal, Deflated suspension, worn out tyres etc, to me it really is a non issue.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

I was under the impression that the risk came from the bogie coming into contact with the barge boards and the possibility of hitting one, more or all of these causing damage to the bogie or infrastructure. This was why there are (and remain!) no barge boards at any point between Euston throat and Camden Jcn so LSL Mk3's can safely operate on all lines including DC electrified lines B and C even with air bags defective.

 

 

[Grizz]

28 minutes ago, royaloak said:

The number of things which would need to be in place or to happen for an LSL vehicle to be an issue on the CRE network are phenomenal, Deflated suspension, worn out tyres etc, to me it really is a non issue.

 

Mmmmmm I suspect it is a case of ‘because we’ve always done it like that, so it is now always going to be like that. 

 

I can see that there could be, vaguely might be, a weird and highly unlikely set of circumstances which given the added ingredient of ‘S*ds Law’ perhaps could lead to a spectacular conductor rail / bogie component electrical firework display. But it is likelihood v consequence. Millions to 1 against it occurring in the next hundred years but if it did the results would likely be catastrophic or at least monetarily catastrophic. 

 

Sadly once someone identified this a possible scenario then despite the fact that it has rarely if ever occurred no one in their right mind would now sign it off as impossible.

 

It is not helped by today’s risk averse culture, coupled with the unwillingness to try anything new, the need to discourage anything new and finally the need to rip as much money out of it as you can. Perfect!