Double slip wiring question

[sjp23480]

Hello Everyone,

I am about to start working my layout and I have a run of three double slips that cross up/down lines which run on separate controllers. 

 

I have reviewed Brian Lambert's advice on wiring but it does not seem to cover the possibility of two power supplies to the slips.  Although he does cover this when is comes to a diamond crossing, using a 4PDT switch. 

 

So, should I also use 4PDT switches to control the power feeds to the slips and rely on the point motor switches to control power to the frogs?

 

Many thanks 

SJP

 

 

[newbryford]

8 minutes ago, sjp23480 said:

Hello Everyone,

I am about to start working my layout and I have a run of three double slips that cross up/down lines which run on separate controllers. 

 

I have reviewed Brian Lambert's advice on wiring but it does not seem to cover the possibility of two power supplies to the slips.  Although he does cover this when is comes to a diamond crossing, using a 4PDT switch. 

 

So, should I also use 4PDT switches to control the power feeds to the slips and rely on the point motor switches to control power to the frogs?

 

Many thanks 

SJP

 

 

 

Whatever is feeding the two outer rails of the slip will be powering the frogs - so for ease of wiring/faultfinding, I would use switches on the motors wired to the two outer rails to power the frog polarity and keep that bit away from your 4PDT.

 

(I use DCC but will still locally connect stock rails through switches to frog, rather than taking it direct from the track bus - even though I know I can!)

[sharris]

If you're using cab control you can consider each double slip as an individual section - switch the appropriate controller to the outside rails using the cab-control section switches, and switch the V's from the outer rails using the switch-rail motors.

 

(you don't say if you're using ready built or making your own DS - I'm going from the perspective of making your own,  not sure what wiring is built into Peco, etc DS)

[BR60103]

The ideal solution would require a point motor with at least 3 sets of contacts. One set for the frog.

One end would be used to decide which section at the other end the slip will be connected to. In a simple case, it could pick either the up line or the slip in the down line. The next slip (in the down line) could be connected to either the down line or the sidings.

(try to picture it)

This was covered in an article on X Section in a late 1950s Model Railroader. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

Hello Everyone,

I am about to start working my layout and I have a run of three double slips that cross up/down lines which run on separate controllers. 

 

I have reviewed Brian Lambert's advice on wiring but it does not seem to cover the possibility of two power supplies to the slips.  Although he does cover this when is comes to a diamond crossing, using a 4PDT switch. 

 

So, should I also use 4PDT switches to control the power feeds to the slips and rely on the point motor switches to control power to the frogs?

 

Many thanks 

SJP

 

 

 

Always a bit difficult to answer this sort of question without a track diagram.

 

But I think that you may be overcomplicating matters here (just as Peco do with their 4-pole switch for the N scissors crossover).

 

The knack, with complex track layouts, is to break them down into their component parts and consider how each will need to function for each train movement. Slips seem complicated but if you operate them as per the prototype (which is not how many model ones do), they are really just two turnouts superimposed.

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Always a bit difficult to answer this sort of question without a track diagram.

 

But I think that you may be overcomplicating matters here (just as Peco do with their 4-pole switch for the N scissors crossover).

 

The knack, with complex track layouts, is to break them down into their component parts and consider how each will need to function for each train movement. Slips seem complicated but if you operate them as per the prototype (which is not how many model ones do), they are really just two turnouts superimposed.

 

I would add that a diamond should only need its own switch when it is separate from any other pointwork (which is rare in the UK , e.g. the flat crossing at Newark). Usually, the polarity of the diamond can be switched by the motor on the turnout which is sending the train across the diamond.

 

Even the Newark example could be done without switches specific to the diamonds. Polarity could be switched by additional contacts on the motors controlling the signals.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell
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[Izzy]

9 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

Hello Everyone,

I am about to start working my layout and I have a run of three double slips that cross up/down lines which run on separate controllers. 

 

I have reviewed Brian Lambert's advice on wiring but it does not seem to cover the possibility of two power supplies to the slips.  Although he does cover this when is comes to a diamond crossing, using a 4PDT switch. 

 

So, should I also use 4PDT switches to control the power feeds to the slips and rely on the point motor switches to control power to the frogs?

 

Many thanks 

SJP

 

 

Yes, exactly that. Treat each D/S as individual isolated track sections which can be powered by either controller. A DPDT switch is all you need to choose which one provides the power, (not sure if this is what is meant by a 4PDT switch).

 

Izzy

[sjp23480]

12 hours ago, sharris said:

If you're using cab control you can consider each double slip as an individual section - switch the appropriate controller to the outside rails using the cab-control section switches, and switch the V's from the outer rails using the switch-rail motors.

 

(you don't say if you're using ready built or making your own DS - I'm going from the perspective of making your own,  not sure what wiring is built into Peco, etc DS)

 

Thank you to everyone that has replied and shared their insights,  I should apologise and explain I am using Roco Geoline double and single slips - which are pre wired for the frog switching.

 

Brian Lambert recommends a 4DPT switch to allow two controllers to provide power to the diamond, and in this case the D/S and S/S.  Track diagram below:

 

 

[Brian]

Hi

As the owner of the referenced web site I initially have to say I've not come across Roco Geoline track work, so I'm a bit in the dark!  But the reference to a 4Pole Double Throw (4PDT) switch is only for use on a diamond crossing where it's possible to enter the diamond from four points leading into and around the diamond, this is not normally used on Single or Double slips.

 

You mention these DS and SS have pre wired frog switching, In that case and without knowing their exact wiring for the frog, I would isolate each slip in all directions by fitting Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) to all rail ends and then feed the two outer stock rails of each slip from a selection switch - one switch per slip that then allows whichever Cab is required to power the passage of the loco under the one chosen controller.      The number and type of selection switches would be governed by the number of controllers to feed these slips.  Options of using DPDT toggle switches (one per slip) for two DC controllers or rotary switches for more than two DC controllers spring to mind.  Equally if just two DC controllers then its possible perhaps to use some form of point motor operated DPDT switch?

 

However, as my knowledge of this make of slips is zero, I may be totally wrong and I stand to be corrected by a more knowledgeable Roco user.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Brian
Text corrected

[sjp23480]

7 hours ago, Brian said:

Hi

As the owner of the referenced web site I initially have to say I've not come across Roco Geoline track work, so I'm a bit in the dark!  But the reference to a 4Pole Double Throw (4PDT) switch is only for use on a diamond crossing where it's possible to enter the diamond from four points leading into and around the diamond, this is not normally used on Single or Double slips.

 

You mention these DS and SS have pre wired frog switching, In that case and without knowing their exact wiring for the frog, I would isolate each slip in all directions by fitting Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) to all rail ends and then feed the two outer stock rails of each slip from a selection switch - one switch per slip that then allows whichever Cab is required to power the passage of the loco under the one chosen controller.      The number and type of selection switches would be governed by the number of controllers to feed these slips.  Options of using DPDT toggle switches (one per slip) for two DC controllers or rotary switches for more than two DC controllers spring to mind.  Equally if just two DC controllers then its possible perhaps to use some form of point motor operated DPDT switch?

 

However, as my knowledge of this make of slips is zero, I may be totally wrong and I stand to be corrected by a more knowledgeable Roco user.

 

Brian,

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question, based on your thoughts I think I will need DPDT switches on each slip to enable the two DC controllers to operate through the point work.  I think a point operated DPDT switch is a bit behind my rudimentary knowledge of electrics!

 

The Roco points are difficult to come by, but I have been impressed with them. Gaugemaster used to have the whole range but they have limited stocks, Conrad Electronics have also been a good source for them.  The slips are not cheap, but I have been impressed.  They have code 83 rail but the blades are not sprung so require sprung or stall motors.  I am pairing them with Conrad point motors which operate like a stall motor.

 

Thanks again,

Stephen

[MalcT]

Hi Stephen,

 

This may be of some use, page 8 refers to wiring double slips:

https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/dcc-advice-11-wiring-pointwork-and-special-track-conditions-for-dc-or-dcc/

 

Malc

[DCB]

Double slips usually only need 2 wires one to each outer rail if you use the internal connections    Live frog diamonds need 4 wires and I use 4 pole relays operated off one of the approach points.  If its set wrong the train shorts the whole lot out, no sweat as mine is 1 amp DC, not so funny with 4 amp DCC.. 

For the slips I would use double pole rotary switches to connect the relevant slip to the relevant diamond.  You can get up to 6 way double pole 1 amp  off eBay for about 1 or 2 quid each usually.   Stick a 1 amp polyswitch or 2  in the wiring if using DCC.  Trying to be too clever and automating it is OK as long as its part of route setting,  as in A to B trying to cope with random point settings will result in hair tearing frustration and probably banks of two or four pole relays as the wiring from B to A is not the same as A to B though the point settings are the same.    My Loft layout was abandoned when the cost of the, reed  relays, latching relays, four pole relays etc for automation went through the roof

[sjp23480]

1 hour ago, MalcT said:

Hi Stephen,

 

This may be of some use, page 8 refers to wiring double slips:

https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/dcc-advice-11-wiring-pointwork-and-special-track-conditions-for-dc-or-dcc/

 

Malc

Thanks Malc, I will take a look

[sjp23480]

37 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Double slips usually only need 2 wires one to each outer rail if you use the internal connections    Live frog diamonds need 4 wires and I use 4 pole relays operated off one of the approach points.  If its set wrong the train shorts the whole lot out, no sweat as mine is 1 amp DC, not so funny with 4 amp DCC.. 

For the slips I would use double pole rotary switches to connect the relevant slip to the relevant diamond.  You can get up to 6 way double pole 1 amp  off eBay for about 1 or 2 quid each usually.   Stick a 1 amp polyswitch or 2  in the wiring if using DCC.  Trying to be too clever and automating it is OK as long as its part of route setting,  as in A to B trying to cope with random point settings will result in hair tearing frustration and probably banks of two or four pole relays as the wiring from B to A is not the same as A to B though the point settings are the same.    My Loft layout was abandoned when the cost of the, reed  relays, latching relays, four pole relays etc for automation went through the roof

Thanks David, 

I am just working out all the switches and wiring needed for my own layout and I am trying to keep in rally simple, but it is going to be expensive!

:-|

[MacDuff999]

Apologies if I am back-tracking on this, some time after the thread was started, but I am on my first attempt at wiring a layout and a novice at doing layout electrics. For my sins, the layout includes a double slip, and I need some basic information/help in working out how to do it. If I use, say, Seep point motors, I presume they will a) move the relevant blades to the required position, b) provide the correct polarity at each 'frog', and c) they can be controlled by SPDT switches. Each stock/outer rail will need to be wired at its centre point in the slip configuration, as will each crossing 'V'. The 'V's are then connected to the SPDT switches yes? As you can work out from the above, I am looking for information/help on really basic stuff. 

[DCB]

It's up to you whether you snip the wires and feed the frogs from the Seep or just let the blades direct the power.

On a Double slip you just need to feed the two outer rails,  a diagram of where the slip sits in the layout would help, generally they are a  very simple alternative to a live frog diamond.

[RFS]

12 minutes ago, DCB said:

It's up to you whether you snip the wires and feed the frogs from the Seep or just let the blades direct the power.

On a Double slip you just need to feed the two outer rails,  a diagram of where the slip sits in the layout would help, generally they are a  very simple alternative to a live frog diamond.

 

If this is an Electrofrog slip then the frogs are fully isolated and must be powered by an external switch such as the built-in switch of the Seep. If it's an Insulfrog slip then no special wiring is needed other than normal track feeds. There is no requirement on either slip - Electrofrog or Insulfrog - to snip any wires!

[Harlequin]

20 hours ago, MacDuff999 said:

Apologies if I am back-tracking on this, some time after the thread was started, but I am on my first attempt at wiring a layout and a novice at doing layout electrics. For my sins, the layout includes a double slip, and I need some basic information/help in working out how to do it. If I use, say, Seep point motors, I presume they will a) move the relevant blades to the required position, b) provide the correct polarity at each 'frog', and c) they can be controlled by SPDT switches. Each stock/outer rail will need to be wired at its centre point in the slip configuration, as will each crossing 'V'. The 'V's are then connected to the SPDT switches yes? As you can work out from the above, I am looking for information/help on really basic stuff. 

Seep point motors need momentary activation so straightforward SPDT switches are not appropriate. You need a switch with sprung centre off position (or some equivalent like two momentary push buttons).

 

Assuming electrofrog:

Because of the momentary activation you can't use the same switch(es) to control frog ("V") polarity. You should do that from a switch built-into the point motor. I.e. use two Seep "GMC-PM1"s: https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/seep-gmc-pm1.html

Wire the output of each seep switch to the opposite frog.