Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[Georgeconna]

2 hours ago, VXDH92 said:

Fingers crossed it's just that they haven't put decoders in the end vehicles at the mo

 

the Rail nut FB says this

 

"So in our excitement we forgot to read the instructions on fitting the chip and this has an effect on the lights oops our fault nothing to do with the APT must learn to read !"

 

 

[boxbrownie]

4 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

 

the Rail nut FB says this

 

"So in our excitement we forgot to read the instructions on fitting the chip and this has an effect on the lights oops our fault nothing to do with the APT must learn to read !"

 

 

That’s interesting, I wonder what it is that’s different from just plugging it into an HST set?

Edited August 5, 2021 by boxbrownie

[E100]

3 hours ago, Fireline said:

That's what I understand it is. 

Oh dear. This is starting to get mightily expensive if this is the case... ...£140 worth of decoders (based on £20 per chip) just to get lights working properly on the 7 car set.

 

Edit: (He says still trying to justify the set to himself!)

 

Edit 2: Replies below indicate 3 decoders needed i.e. 1 per driving car and 1 per motor car.

Edited August 5, 2021 by E100

[Michael Hodgson]

That's me out then.

[John ks]

Confirming what has been said in the last few posts. I seem to recall seeing the coupling between the power cars & the coaches  & didn't  see any electrical connection between them

i would hope there is some sort of electrical connection between articulated coaches but wont know until i have one in my hot little hands

 

 

If you want sound with your DCC then it may require up to 4 Sound decoders (1 for each power car & 1 for each DT assuming you want the horn sound coming from the DT & not the Power car)

John

 

[No Decorum]

At a guess, I’d say that these follow Hornby’s usual arrangement found in the Pendolinos and Javelins. Lights in the trailers will be powered directly from the track and a decoder will only be needed for the power car plus one in each end car if you want to control the running lights on DCC.

[Fireline]

47 minutes ago, E100 said:

Oh dear. This is starting to get mightily expensive if this is the case... ...£140 worth of decoders (based on £20 per chip) just to get lights working properly on the 7 car set.

 

Edit: (He says still trying to justify the set to himself!)

 

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I understand it is one decoder in each end car, and one in the centre power car itself, making a total of 3 for a 7 car set. I must admit, I forgot to ask if the internal lights are switchable or not!

[E100]

1 hour ago, Fireline said:

 

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I understand it is one decoder in each end car, and one in the centre power car itself, making a total of 3 for a 7 car set. I must admit, I forgot to ask if the internal lights are switchable or not!

Yes I did start to think over the past hour this might be more the case that 3 decoders would be needed with then the coach lights picking up from DC/DCC. Somewhat disappointing with the articulated bogies it would have been nice to see something similar to the Rapido APT-E as these coaches will only ever run in this set. Feel's very much a 2000's rather than 2020's solution, especially when considering the functionality of modern decoders.

 

Slightly off topic so feel free to split. Very new to DCC - is there such a thing as a cheap slave decoder for the end car purpose that play's nicely with the main decoder and doesn't include all the functionality such as motor control back EMF or is this basically just an accessory decoder?

[progers]

Hi all - just for anyone interested i have just completed the dcc fitting for the APT at Chester Cathedral  - so next time you see it it will have operating head and tail lights! The function only decoder is a doddle to fit - but you need to choose a small one if you use a direct fir 8 pin as the opening for the plug is only slightly wider than than an 8 pin plug. Much the same for the power car - if you choose a harnessed chip there is plenty of wriggle room to slot in the extra wires! Have to say it looks great and runs really well - well done Hornby.

[Pre Grouping fan]

2 hours ago, E100 said:

Oh dear. This is starting to get mightily expensive if this is the case... ...£140 worth of decoders (based on £20 per chip) just to get lights working properly on the 7 car set.

 

Edit: (He says still trying to justify the set to himself!)

I don't think it's a decoder per coach, one for each end for directional lights and a 3rd or more for each powered coach 

[progers]

Having just done the fitting I can confirm that1 function only chip is needed for directional lighting in each driving trailer and your choice of decoder for the power car. The internal lights are on automatically as far as i can see - if you put the coach on the track the saloon lights come on dc or dcc. The coupling bars are not connective - ie each individual coach has its own pick ups for lighting. Sor for a 7 car set you need one dcc decoder for motion / sound etc and 2 function only for the driving car lights. Hope that clears up any queries! 

[E100]

8 minutes ago, progers said:

Having just done the fitting I can confirm that1 function only chip is needed for directional lighting in each driving trailer and your choice of decoder for the power car. The internal lights are on automatically as far as i can see - if you put the coach on the track the saloon lights come on dc or dcc. The coupling bars are not connective - ie each individual coach has its own pick ups for lighting. Sor for a 7 car set you need one dcc decoder for motion / sound etc and 2 function only for the driving car lights. Hope that clears up any queries! 

 

That does. Thank you for that info. I'm sure it'll help us who have to order the decoders to get it running properly!

 

Anyway get back to putting it through it's paces 

[boxbrownie]

Interesting, so a function decoder for each car if you want to control the coach lighting, all adds up I guess but TBH just a sound chip in the power car would be fine for the horns I’d wager.

[E100]

8 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Interesting, so a function decoder for each car if you want to control the coach lighting, all adds up I guess but TBH just a sound chip in the power car would be fine for the horns I’d wager.

I'm not so sure about that. Without modification it sounds like 1 function decoder in each driving car for head/tail lights. The interior coach lighting is on a separate circuit that is always on.

[Graholm34040]

Hornby now have service sheet 456 for the APT (NDM and DTS). It shows that the non-sound decoders can be fitted by removing two screws holding part of the underframe on each of these vehicles to gain access to the 8 pin decoder socket.

[boxbrownie]

18 minutes ago, E100 said:

I'm not so sure about that. Without modification it sounds like 1 function decoder in each driving car for head/tail lights. The interior coach lighting is on a separate circuit that is always on.

Exactly, which means if you want to control the coach lighting it needs a function decoder in each coach.

 

If you want the interior lighting on all the time (even when in sidings/fiddle yard?) it’s fine.

[E100]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Exactly, which means if you want to control the coach lighting it needs a function decoder in each coach.

 

If you want the interior lighting on all the time (even when in sidings/fiddle yard?) it’s fine.

 

Ah I think I go the wrong end of the stick, sorry. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by E100

[progers]

The interior lights of each trailer vehicle are independently powered, and are constant on. You do not need a decoder in each vehicle to operate the interior lights. You do need a decoder for the power car, and function decoders in each driving trailer to operate head/tail lights. So for a 5 coach set = 2xfunction only in the driving trailers  and 1x dcc decoder in the power car. Same for a 7 car set, and for the 14 car set I assume 1 for each power car and the 2 function only ones in the driving trailer.  Access to the decoder socket is 2 small screws to remove a small blanking panel under the chassis and is common to the driving trailer and the power car. All very simple really - to dcc fit the entire train should take about 5 minutes start to finish - probably less time than putting it on the tracks! Also remember that the 3 decoders will need to be addressed together to enable the directional head / tail lighting. There is no easy option to control the interior lights - you could do it but then you would need to cut into the coach lighting circuit in each vehicle and add in a function decoder hard wired. Hope that helps clear up the queries ! Enjoy!

[boxbrownie]

2 minutes ago, progers said:

The interior lights of each trailer vehicle are independently powered, and are constant on. You do not need a decoder in each vehicle to operate the interior lights. You do need a decoder for the power car, and function decoders in each driving trailer to operate head/tail lights. So for a 5 coach set = 2xfunction only in the driving trailers  and 1x dcc decoder in the power car. Same for a 7 car set, and for the 14 car set I assume 1 for each power car and the 2 function only ones in the driving trailer.  Access to the decoder socket is 2 small screws to remove a small blanking panel under the chassis and is common to the driving trailer and the power car. All very simple really - to dcc fit the entire train should take about 5 minutes start to finish - probably less time than putting it on the tracks! Also remember that the 3 decoders will need to be addressed together to enable the directional head / tail lighting. There is no easy option to control the interior lights - you could do it but then you would need to cut into the coach lighting circuit in each vehicle and add in a function decoder hard wired. Hope that helps clear up the queries ! Enjoy!

Your description before was perfectly clear I was just stating “if” you want to operate the interior lighting on DCC (ie on and off) each coach would need its own function decoder.

[Hilux5972]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Your description before was perfectly clear I was just stating “if” you want to operate the interior lighting on DCC (ie on and off) each coach would need its own function decoder.

And you would need to modify the electrics to have switchable lights. 

[boxbrownie]

10 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

And you would need to modify the electrics to have switchable lights. 

Yes, break the circuit between track and lights, a simple and common procedure.

 

As an aside, is there provision for a speaker in the main motor coach? (Those that have seen it already)

[Michael Hodgson]

Can't see why you would want to be able to switch each coach's lights on/off independently of one another.

[No Decorum]

It would be easy to control the trailer lights using a switched section of track. I assume the head and tail lights works on DC without decoders fitted.

[E100]

18 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

It would be easy to control the trailer lights using a switched section of track. I assume the head and tail lights works on DC without decoders fitted.

 

I dare say even on DCC that's a lot cheaper for a siding or two where you park it parked up!

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Can't see why you would want to be able to switch each coach's lights on/off independently of one another.

Because it’s hardly realistic with an APT sitting in sidings with coach lighting on except the driving trailers each end in darkness……dunno, maybe that was prototypical? 

 

My observation was just that, to control interior passenger lighting you will need a decoder in each coach, if you want a critical observation then I would say at the price I’d expect it engineered in, I’ve got over fifteen year old Kato N gauge multiple units that I can do just that with.