Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[Dagworth]

32 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Does the livery difference extend beyond just the black on the cabs?
And I believe the pantographs should just unscrew and swap over. 

The later version *ought* to have an orange cantrail on the NDMs, http://www.traintesting.com/images/APT V 49004 (370006) @ Carlisle p searle.jpg

 

Andi

[Bigeddie]

4 hours ago, John ks said:

I've got 8 coaches & a spare NDM waiting for the 7 car set to arrive

If I want to run a 14 car set I have 2 choices,

1 do a body swap on the NDM's & have number matching set

2  Just use the second powered NDM as is & have a set without matching numbers

 

 If I go with the second choice 

1, who will notice 

or

2, If I understand correctly, the porotype run without number matched sets

 

 

 

 John

Hey John, same here, that said, it is a little frustrating if 2 powered ndms are needed for the 14 car set as Hornby did not make that clear at the time we all ordered, indeed they indicated in their diagrams only one powered and one dummy was needed. I guess most people will  run less than 14 cars and have no issues, whilst the rest of us will need to source a second powered ndm. ( luckily i am looking at mine as i write) 

 

i do think that Hornby should provide a way for those who they ( albeit through over confidence rather than malice) misled to upgrade to 2 powered ndms. But the most cost effective way (for them and us) may be another ndm run. Lets hope they do the right thing.

 

 

[The Ghost of IKB]

Has anyone thought about reducing the gap between coaches, it looks very wide, and being able to see into the coaches makes it seem worse. 1/76 health and safety issue!

[Wolf27]

Fed up of waiting for your Hornby APT? Make one!

 

Untitled by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

 

[SamThomas]

1 hour ago, Bigeddie said:

Hey John, same here, that said, it is a little frustrating if 2 powered ndms are needed for the 14 car set as Hornby did not make that clear at the time we all ordered, indeed they indicated in their diagrams only one powered and one dummy was needed. I guess most people will  run less than 14 cars and have no issues, whilst the rest of us will need to source a second powered ndm. ( luckily i am looking at mine as i write) 

 

i do think that Hornby should provide a way for those who they ( albeit through over confidence rather than malice) misled to upgrade to 2 powered ndms. But the most cost effective way (for them and us) may be another ndm run. Lets hope they do the right thing.

 

 

With all the space Hornby have/had at their disposal you would think that they would have a decent length test track with some gradiants.

[Waverley West]

56 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

With all the space Hornby have/had at their disposal you would think that they would have a decent length test track with some gradiants.

 

I was watching an edition of Hornby A Model World last night, the one about the development of Churchill's funeral carriage. It was very disappointing to see how little on-track testing the coach seemed to go through before being accepted.

 

Apart from using what looked like just an 8' x 4' roundy roundy set-track layout with the only reverse curves being through the points, the testing simply seemed to involve dragging the coach as the last vehicle in a rake of 2/3 coaches around the layout, with no trailing load whatsoever.

 

A quick google reveals that the funeral train consisted of a six-coach rake with the funeral carriage as the second coach. The least Hornby could have done would surely have been to test it in that formation? Despite his pleasing enthusiasm for his job, the person in charge of the testing seemed to be a product designer/developer, rather than an enthusiast and had no thought whatsoever for the possible drag effects of trailing coaches.

 

If this is the sum total of Hornby's on-track testing, it does at least give an indication of how they can pass the close-coupling mechanisms on their diesel locos, which has long been a bane of mine. I can imagine their CCM mechanism working with a short rake of a few wagons behind the loco, but not with any significant number of wagons (in my experience and that of many others at least).

 

On a more positive note, it was good to see the effort being put into getting the light grey colour on the APT right. When Hornby first released its horribly orange/yellow version of this colour, SK defended it by citing RAL values. That approach seems to have been abandoned in favour of visual cross-checking against the real thing. I'd say the light grey on the latest APT is not far off the mark, especially given that it is a difficult colour to reproduce and that it looks different in different lighting. 

 

Having sold off my 1980s set, I'm looking forward to getting my 7-car rake to go with the 2 coaches already received. I will have to do something about those capacitors, but it's a bonus that pickups are already fitted,  which will speed up the process of fitting replacement lighting.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Waverley West

[Mike Harvey]

3 minutes ago, Waverley West said:

 

I was watching an edition of Hornby A Model World last night, the one about the development of Churchill's funeral carriage. It was very disappointing to see how little on-track testing the coach seemed to go through before being accepted.

 

Apart from using what looked like just an 8' x 4' roundy roundy set-track layout with the only reverse curves being through the points, the testing simply seemed to involve dragging the coach as the last vehicle in a rake of 2/3 coaches around the layout, with no trailing load whatsoever.

 

 

 

I bet the programme makers were worried that two days of comprehensive testing would not make for interesting TV, so just included a snippet from the test process.

[Waverley West]

1 minute ago, Mike Harvey said:

 

I bet the programme makers were worried that two days of comprehensive testing would not make for interesting TV, so just included a snippet from the test process.

 

I hope you're right, but I'm not convinced.

[rembrow]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

With all the space Hornby have/had at their disposal you would think that they would have a decent length test track with some gradiants.

In fairness to Hornby, during the recent programme when they showed a full rake apt, under test, to determine it's scale maximum speed with one ndm, that test identified a shortfall in speed. They stated that they decided to uprate the motor and a further test with the programme recording, fitted with the uprated motor, showed it achieving the speed of the prototype, on one ndm. Yes, that was on flat track. The programme must have been recorded after the product was announced, as most of the stock used were painted examples, which indicates that the motor change was made late into the development.Time will tell.

Edited January 6, 2022 by rembrow
Correction

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, Waverley West said:

I was watching an edition of Hornby A Model World last night, the one about the development of Churchill's funeral carriage. It was very disappointing to see how little on-track testing the coach seemed to go through before being accepted.

 

Don't believe everything you see on telly. I'd make an educated quess that most of the shots in that show were set up for the cameras. The real work takes far too long and is too boring for people watching the box.

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, scumcat said:

I agree the quicker manufacturers move away from wiper pickups on rolling stock the better. The spring type ala dcc concepts are much better IMHO

No doubt they are regarding friction (I use them myself) but if they are used it halves the number of track pick-ups on any wagon/stock as they use the uninsulated axle not the actual wheel.

[Waverley West]

12 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Don't believe everything you see on telly. I'd make an educated quess that most of the shots in that show were set up for the cameras. The real work takes far too long and is too boring for people watching the box.

 

You may be right, but I have too many Hornby diesel locos which have needed extensive modification to their couplings to stop them dragging rolling stock off the track through reverse curves to believe that their on-track testing methods are exhaustive.

[SamThomas]

40 minutes ago, rembrow said:

In fairness to Hornby, during the recent programme when they showed a full rake apt, under test, to determine it's scale maximum speed with one ndm, that test identified a shortfall in speed. They stated that they decided to uprate the motor and a further test with the programme recording, fitted with the uprated motor, showed it achieving the speed of the prototype, on one ndm. Yes, that was on flat track. The programme must have been recorded after the product was announced, as most of the stock used were painted examples, which indicates that the motor change was made late into the development.Time will tell.

I appreciate that Hornby uprated the motor but the most powerful motor you could fit into the power car is superfluous if you cannot transmit that power onto the track.

I still do think that Hornby should have a decent representaltional test track with monitoring facilities - maybe they have or maybe they use a 3rd party for testing - who knows.

It seems to me that there is too much of a rush to be the first to get models into production & on the shelves which is where the bean counters & engineers differ.

 

At the end of the day I just hope that the model works as it should.

 

I take everything I see on TV with a truckload of salt & a can of BS repellant handy.

[SamThomas]

9 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

No doubt they are regarding friction (I use them myself) but if they are used it halves the number of track pick-ups on any wagon/stock as they use the uninsulated axle not the actual wheel.

Thats very true but with decent stay alives it's not a problem technically but it does need effecient (niot large/cheap) capacitors.......

[SamThomas]

9 minutes ago, Waverley West said:

 

You may be right, but I have too many Hornby diesel locos which have needed extensive modification to their couplings to stop them dragging rolling stock off the track through reverse curves to believe that their on-track testing methods are exhaustive.

Could the problem be with tension lock type couplings ?

Being used to close coupling mechanisms for decades I've found that the european "hook & loop" couplings do not work that well with them & best results are with couplings that when couipled do not have much if any side play - such as the Hornby "Rocoalike" (which is slightly longer than the Roco one) & Fleischmann Profi.

I've also found occasional issus when mixing close & standard coupling mounting even with identical heads.

[E100]

With regards the pickups. Normally I'd tend to agree that the spring spring type are best, however since this is an articulated set the only way I'd see this working is if they had power connections to adjacent coaches as it'd relay on just one wheel's contact with the track.

[Waverley West]

Just now, SamThomas said:

Could the problem be with tension lock type couplings ?

Being used to close coupling mechanisms for decades I've found that the european "hook & loop" couplings do not work that well with them & best results are with couplings that when couipled do not have much if any side play - such as the Hornby "Rocoalike" (which is slightly longer than the Roco one) & Fleischmann Profi.

I've also found occasional issus when mixing close & standard coupling mounting even with identical heads.

 

I don't think so. It's to do with the centring mechanism, which uses a small spring. The spring is completely overwhelmed by anything resembling a heavy load. With anything more than just a few coaches, the spring just isn't powerful enough to return the coupling to the centre, with the result that when the train passes through a reverse curve, the coupling remains on the "wrong" side of the v-shaped plastic which is supposed to create the close coupling on the straight. The result is that the coupling drags the leading bogie/wheelset off the track to one side.

 

I much prefer bogie-mounted couplings, which work pretty flawlessly in my experience, as used on all my Bachmann stock, for example. Some CCMs work OK (again, Bachmann's version fitted to their Mk 2fs, for example), but many don't (the version Heljan uses on its bogie wagons is another example of a CCM mechanism which usually needs major modification/replacement in my experience).

 

But, I digress, back to the APT, which I'm very much looking forward to.

[rembrow]

33 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Don't believe everything you see on telly. I'd make an educated quess that most of the shots in that show were set up for the cameras. The real work takes far too long and is too boring for people watching the box.

Are you sure. I was very surprised that they were happy to show on the programme, two product developers, crawling around on the visitor centre floor, with an apt car and a power source, to test for light blead through the sides of the coach. That came across as very amateurish, as I'm sure they could have used other dark areas of the office, to be able to work at head height.  It appeared that the director wanted to show some urgent  action, as this segment was based on 'a customer' complaining about light blead through the sides of the last version of the Mk3 dvt, and sure enough, they found light blead through the apt coach, cue dramatic tension.

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, The Ghost of IKB said:

Has anyone thought about reducing the gap between coaches, it looks very wide, and being able to see into the coaches makes it seem worse. 1/76 health and safety issue!

What do you mean……grit your teeth and jump….easy 

 

[boxbrownie]

24 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Thats very true but with decent stay alives it's not a problem technically but it does need effecient (niot large/cheap) capacitors.......

Not sure stay alives will work on DC but for DCC sure, I fit them on all my Locos but never bothered on rolling stock for interior lighting etc. Although recently I have tried a couple of the TrainTech battery units which work upon the slightest movement and found them really very good and easy to fit.

[PaulRhB]

14 hours ago, andyman7 said:

I'm really getting that 'first world problems' vibe with this thread.
 

 

It’s a discussion on model trains so instantly a first world problem  But it is a £1000 of money which is a lot even for us average first worlders to spend on a train in one go  

 

14 hours ago, andyman7 said:

Now Hornby have

- delivered an actual APT-P

- made it in both livery variations

- made all the intermediate coaches

- made a powered NDM available as a standalone item

and still the tone is - well - lukewarm. I mean, a 14 coach train is a behemoth! And the real thing rarely ran in the full formation. I think the production of this particular model is really beyond the wildest dreams for many of us.

 Yes and because of those well made points my order went in the day it was announced, and again, 18 months later the day I found out that Hattons had been dumped, at a higher price because the only place I could order it’s all was Hornby  

 

I’m genuinely excited by the prospect of being able to stretch a 14 car set out at full speed as I have a couple of friends with layouts big enough. I’m also frustrated that even in March they auto replied then ignored my second email asking if it did require a second powercar contrary to their technical material released  

 

We also know that it being so hard to get spares because of the low numbers produced we have fingers, toes and everything else crossed there aren’t any faults when it does arrive. Just see the W1 thread with people torn between returning it and possibly having to have a refund and trying to fix the problems. 
My coaches arrived 2-3 months ago and I checked them all over and was very happy but the bit that actually makes it work is still to arrive so there is a tiny bit of trepidation about what happens if the rest doesn’t perform especially as it’s two weeks behind the 5 car sets. 
 

So yeah a first world worry, but this is a thread discussing a pretty first world product   My gripe has been lack of info or response since Paul Isles left, who politely supplied what he could. Rather than just rant on here I sent two emails direct and got the same answer as Paul gave then nothing for the second. If shows had been on I’d have made a beeline for the Hornby stand at Warley and asked again politely. I hoped  probably in vain that a more reasonable stance, call it lukewarm to Hornby as a company, might get those in the industry to answer the questions quietly or even on a virtual show   
So I’ve happily found a extra powercar last week, not threatened to black Hornby and never buy it again and hopefully pointed out where better info and consistent information would actually prevent these frustrations in the first place. I’m not even moaning about the extra cost of the powercar as I’m happy to pay for the mechanism and had said so months ago. I’d just rather not waste money buying something I don’t need and someone else might be searching for to complete a five car set  

Hornby products are still very good, their customer and spares support still need to improve back to the old levels or they’ll lose my trade on duplicate models as I’ve had far better support from Rapido and Rails in the last year on their products with similar minor issues. 

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Waverley West said:

 

You may be right, but I have too many Hornby diesel locos which have needed extensive modification to their couplings to stop them dragging rolling stock off the track through reverse curves to believe that their on-track testing methods are exhaustive.

 Ah, have you tried their Roco like couplings? These are must in my book when using long rakes and close coupling systems.  (not that we need them on an APT mind you).

[SamThomas]

59 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Not sure stay alives will work on DC but for DCC sure, I fit them on all my Locos but never bothered on rolling stock for interior lighting etc. Although recently I have tried a couple of the TrainTech battery units which work upon the slightest movement and found them really very good and easy to fit.

Sorry David (& any others I misled) - I meant "flicker-frees.

[SamThomas]

7 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 Ah, have you tried their Roco like couplings? These are must in my book when using long rakes and close coupling systems.  (not that we need them on an APT mind you).

When the Rocoalikes are fitted to UK stock do the buffers/corridor connections almost touch or is their still a gap ?

I ask because on some European rakes I have the actual Roco ones are a lttle too close & to compensate I use alternate Roco/Rocoalikes as the latter are a tad longer.

[boxbrownie]

19 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Sorry David (& any others I misled) - I meant "flicker-frees.

No worries, and that’s why I liked the TrainTech lighting, completely flicker free.