Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[rembrow]

On 07/01/2020 at 14:24, John ks said:

 

 

 

the above pic looks like the  actual 7-car formation featuring the APT-U development car

 

 

Start with the 7 car set & you've got the set shown above

Remove the APT-U coach & add R40011A TS & or  R40012A TRBS & or R40013A TU & or R40014A TF to make 8,10,12, or 14 car sets

 

 

I've upgraded the following table to reflect what I now believe to be correct

Unit number followed by Hornby "R" number

Sets are highlighted & coach packs are colour coded

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this brilliant analysis, it's help me sort out the twin coach sets I need. Looking at the advertised prices, and using Hattons prices as bench marks, there is a price imbalance between the 5 car set and the 7 car set, which doesn't match with the cost of the additional vehicles. Sorry if this has been covered before, but I had not seen any similar evaluation.

 

R 3874  7 car  £437.00

R3873   5 car  £356.00

Difference        £81.00

 

Price of 2 car articulated coach packs £81.00, so the price difference is equivalent to 2 coaches, which we've established to be a 2nd NDM and the APT-U.

 

The APT-U is not available yet as an add on vehicle, but a second NDM is, R3948, fleet number 49004,priced at £99.00 and described as motorised with 8 pin DCC ready.

 

Now Hornby are unlikely to be generous to the tune of £58, in providing a motorised NDM and APT-U for £81, when the retail price if both were available, would be £40.50 plus £99.00 = £139.50.

 

The only way I can square this is if the second NDM in the 7 car set R3874, is non motorised, giving it one motorised and one unmotorised NDM. Whether this will be sufficient for a full set is debatable. This is all conjecture on my part, but uses the logic that Hornby are unlikely to significantly underprice the 7 car set. Hopefully this will become clear when the catalogue comes out, but raises the thought that those buying the 7 car plus 3x2 car sets to enable the 14 car formation, may need to buy the motorised NDM for additional power. Anybody got any thoughts. I'm wondering that if you want a set with 2 motorised NDMs, you'll have to buy the extra R3948 for the 7 car set and change one of the set NDM bodies, or build up the 5 car set, buying R3948 as one of the additionals plus the 2 vehicle articulated extra coaches. 

 

If you've already got the 'heritage' Hornby APT, from 1981, as I have, the additional NDM could provide a better traction/power option from the ringfield version in the original set. They, however, may not match up in livery and height.

Edited January 8, 2020 by rembrow

[Hilux5972]

Here’s a website that lists formation. No numbers unfortunately though. 
 

https://www.apt-p.com/APTConfigurations.htm

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, rembrow said:

Thanks for this brilliant analysis, it's help me sort out the twin coach sets I need. Looking at the advertised prices, and using Hattons prices as bench marks, there is a price imbalance between the 5 car set and the 7 car set, which doesn't match with the cost of the additional vehicles. Sorry if this has been covered before, but I had not seen any similar evaluation.

 

R 3874  7 car  £437.00

R3873   5 car  £356.00

Difference        £81.00

 

Price of 2 car articulated coach packs £81.00, so the price difference is equivalent to 2 coaches, which we've established to be a 2nd NDM and the APT-U.

 

The APT-U is not available yet as an add on vehicle, but a second NDM is, R3948, fleet number 49004,priced at £99.00 and described as motorised with 8 pin DCC ready.

 

Now Hornby are unlikely to be generous to the tune of £58, in providing a motorised NDM and APT-U for £81, when the retail price if both were available, would be £40.50 plus £99.00 = £139.50.

 

The only way I can square this is if the second NDM in the 7 car set R3874, is non motorised, giving it one motorised and one unmotorised NDM. Whether this will be sufficient for a full set is debatable. This is all conjecture on my part, but uses the logic that Hornby are unlikely to significantly underprice the 7 car set. Hopefully this will become clear when the catalogue comes out, but raises the thought that those buying the 7 car plus 3x2 car sets to enable the 14 car formation, may need to buy the motorised NDM for additional power. Anybody got any thoughts. I'm wondering that if you want a set with 2 motorised NDMs, you'll have to buy the extra R3948 for the 7 car set and change one of the set NDM bodies, or build up the 5 car set, buying R3948 as one of the additionals plus the 2 vehicle articulated extra coaches. 

 

If you've already got the 'heritage' Hornby APT, from 1981, as I have, the additional NDM could provide a better traction/power option from the ringfield version in the original set. They, however, may not match up in livery and height.

 

I'm a little puzzled what the other coach could be ... if we know one is a APT-U coach, to provide any coach other than a 2nd NDM wouldn't make sense when the other additional coaches are paired. Whether its a TS, TU, TRBS or TBF the additional coach packs are 2x TS, 2x TU, 2x TRBS and 2x TBF so if the 7 car has an extra of any of those and you're aiming for the full 14 car rake then you'd either end up with 3 of the additional type or 1 short if you skip that extra coach pack.

 

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[stovepipe]

Well the secret must be out by now, as the catalogue came out today.

 

Anyone got one yet?

[APT-P]

1 hour ago, Hilux5972 said:

 No numbers unfortunately though. 

If you click on the individual APT-P Vehicles you will be taken to a page that shows the layout and the range of coach numbers.

[rembrow]

39 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

I'm a little puzzled what the other coach could be ... if we know one is a APT-U coach, to provide any coach other than a 2nd NDM wouldn't make sense when the other additional coaches are paired. Whether its a TS, TU, TRBS or TBF the additional coach packs are 2x TS, 2x TU, 2x TRBS and 2x TBF so if the 7 car has an extra of any of those and you're aiming for the full 14 car rake then you'd either end up with 3 of the additional type or 1 short if you skip that extra coach pack.

 

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Sorry, I think you've misunderstood me. I agree that the additional coaches in the 7 car set must be an APT-U and a second N-DM. But as the price difference between the sets is only £81, that indicates the two additional vehicles must be unmotorized models, so I'm suggesting that the second N-DM in the 7 car set looks like it will be unmotorized, a freewheeling model. Hopefully we'll find out soon, but as I've now ordered the 7 car and 4 two car articulated sets I'm concerned as to whether one motorised N-DM will be enough to pull/push a 14 car rake.

[60800]

56 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

Well the secret must be out by now, as the catalogue came out today.

 

Anyone got one yet?

 

Had a look at Tesco. The catalogue has less information than the website....

 

Cheers,

  60800 

[stovepipe]

Just now, 60800 said:

 

Had a look at Tesco. The catalogue has less information than the website....

 

Cheers,

  60800 

 

As expected...I really can't say I'm surprised one little bit......

 

But I agree with the consensus that has emerged  - it is probably a dummy NDM, and the bogied TS but, until Hornby confirm..... I'm not pre-ordering.

 

It seems the formations in the 1983 to 1985 period (when they worked unadvertised relief trains) were regularly 10-car, usually DTS-TBF-NDM-NDM-TBF-TF-TU-TRSB-TS-DTS, with the front 2 often locked out of use. I think then a 10-car set might well be what I'm heading for. Will have to see if there is any interest in a spare car swap-shop down the line!

 

Thanks

[Titan]

1 hour ago, scumcat said:

That’s what I did with my all yellow end original years and years ago. I had bought it in about 1988 at i little second hand shop on the miklegate in York. Some years later when times were hard I sold the APT to city models in Liverpool To fund car repairs. Many years after that I found it again on a stand at a swap meet at donnington park racetrack I knew it was the same one as it still had one smudge on the black paint around the windscreen that I had done and could never get right.. I didn’t re buy it but the seller was really interested in it’s history.

 

Hmm. I have one that had the black windows painted on.  I will have to find it and check for smudges,,,

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, stovepipe said:

 

As expected...I really can't say I'm surprised one little bit......

 

But I agree with the consensus that has emerged  - it is probably a dummy NDM, and the bogied TS but, until Hornby confirm..... I'm not pre-ordering.

 

It seems the formations in the 1983 to 1985 period (when they worked unadvertised relief trains) were regularly 10-car, usually DTS-TBF-NDM-NDM-TBF-TF-TU-TRSB-TS-DTS, with the front 2 often locked out of use. I think then a 10-car set might well be what I'm heading for. Will have to see if there is any interest in a spare car swap-shop down the line!

 

Thanks

 

Funny enough, I've ordered a full set even though a 10 set like the above is all I'm really after and was thinking of selling one end of extra 4 cars.

[Titan]

Well I just had a look, and the paint isn't brilliant - looks  painted with gloss paint and although the masking tape seems to have done its job it is a bit lumpy around the front windows.  Hence why this one was due to go on the chopping block.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Titan

[John ks]

Regarding R3874, 7 car set 

Here is a screen grab from Hornby mag video & it shows the 7 car set with 2 NMD's & 1 APT-U & a RRP of £549.99

I got the following RRP's from Hornby' site 

7 car set R3784  £484.99 

NMD       R3948  £109.99

APT u      R4970    £39.99

the price difference between the 5 & 7 car sets is £90.00 or is it £155.00 if you believe the screen grab RRP. Time will tell

 

I am somewhere between bewildered & astounded that Hornby did the APT U, & very pleased

I will get the 7 car set & 4 coach packs. That will allow me to make up almost any combination I want

 

The following is me thinking out aloud

Would the APT U sell very well as a single item? Adding it to a set would guarantee enough units to make it viable 

Was the RRP going to be £549.99 and was it decided to reduce it to £484.99 to stimulate more sales

It is normal for a set to cost less than the cost of the individual parts

 

 

John

 

 

 

 

[big jim]

On 06/01/2020 at 14:28, RedgateModels said:

 

 

 

 

Scrapped. It did run in APT-P formations, marshalled next to the power car(s)

Ive got a photo my dad took in the 80s of it in a formation at crewe

 

ive got a pic of it on photobucket But it’s down at the mo, when it comes back I’ll upload it or if I can find the original print I’ll use the forum upload feature 

[Legend]

Hmm think I might go for a seven coach and one of the coach packs , probably TS to give some options on the formation when it arrives . I think the max I can reasonably accomodate on my layout is seven . I can alter the formation to give some variety when I get it .  Might still do the 5 car and coach pack but really want the black windscreen and while you can paint that on  it might detract from second hand value if you want to resell . 

 

It does blow blow the Modelling budget , given that I’ve also signed up to Rocket, but these are something special and I suppose demonstrates just how successful Hornby are in getting me to part with cash . Indeed it is a good 2020 range . Fancy an IET too, but I reckon that will be around for a few years so probably lots of opportunities to buy later

Edited January 9, 2020 by Legend

[TomE]

7 hours ago, scumcat said:

I’m a oo man through and through. What I don’t get about this is why haven’t Hornby announced it in N as well. Share the development budget and put it in the Arnold brand like they did with the Brighton belle and sell bucket loads of them. Because you know if this sells well Dapol will announce their own n version.

 

Post Dave Jones, Dapol have significantly dialed back their N Gauge development with only a couple of new tool items announced, one of which seems to be in a state of permanent limbo. I Just can't see Dapol committing to a new N gauge project of APT proportions given their current direction and in this scale it's probably a type that better fits the RevolutioN model of establishing demand before production anyway.

 

With Bachmann's own problems persisting this would seem like the perfect time for Hornby to take advantage of the situation, build on the groundwork of the Brighton Belle and steal a bigger piece of the N Gauge market for themselves, but there is no sign of any will to do so from Margate whatsoever. The Class 800 would have been a perfect example to scale down. A new train in service with several operators over a wide area of the country and likely to see many, many liveries over their lifetime meaning plenty of opportunity to recoup the cost of the tooling. but instead they sat back and let it be picked off by Kato. 

 

Tom. 

 

[woodenhead]

22 minutes ago, TomE said:

 

Post Dave Jones, Dapol have significantly dialed back their N Gauge development with only a couple of new tool items announced, one of which seems to be in a state of permanent limbo. I Just can't see Dapol committing to a new N gauge project of APT proportions given their current direction and in this scale it's probably a type that better fits the RevolutioN model of establishing demand before production anyway.

 

With Bachmann's own problems persisting this would seem like the perfect time for Hornby to take advantage of the situation, build on the groundwork of the Brighton Belle and steal a bigger piece of the N Gauge market for themselves, but there is no sign of any will to do so from Margate whatsoever. The Class 800 would have been a perfect example to scale down. A new train in service with several operators over a wide area of the country and likely to see many, many liveries over their lifetime meaning plenty of opportunity to recoup the cost of the tooling. but instead they sat back and let it be picked off by Kato. 

 

Tom. 

 

Or maybe beyond a collectible Brighton Belle experiment Hornby have little interest in N.

 

They tried Lyddle End which many thought was a precursor to N gauge trains, they tried the Belle which had the same effect and still nothing more.

 

Maybe Heljan with it's 009 mechs may take an interest, but probably unlikely seeing as they too have the O gauge bug.

[JohnR]

45 minutes ago, TomE said:

 

Post Dave Jones, Dapol have significantly dialed back their N Gauge development with only a couple of new tool items announced, one of which seems to be in a state of permanent limbo. I Just can't see Dapol committing to a new N gauge project of APT proportions given their current direction and in this scale it's probably a type that better fits the RevolutioN model of establishing demand before production anyway.

 

With Bachmann's own problems persisting this would seem like the perfect time for Hornby to take advantage of the situation, build on the groundwork of the Brighton Belle and steal a bigger piece of the N Gauge market for themselves, but there is no sign of any will to do so from Margate whatsoever. The Class 800 would have been a perfect example to scale down. A new train in service with several operators over a wide area of the country and likely to see many, many liveries over their lifetime meaning plenty of opportunity to recoup the cost of the tooling. but instead they sat back and let it be picked off by Kato. 

 

Tom. 

 

 

To be honest, I think if Hornby wanted to enter N gauge, and decided an 800 was a good choice for its range (as you say, large range of liveries, long expected lifespan, design/research already done for the OO version), I dont think the fact Kato have already done one would stop them. 

 

 

[JohnR]

I think my wallet is now completely blown.

 

My 7 year old son (always been a massive fan of the APT) has now discovered the Hornby catalogue I bought. He also wants to add more Class 66's, and even the 50s in GBRf have intrigued him. He also wants a GWR HST set. And by set, I mean a full 2+8 set with all the coaches Hornby are listing now. 

 

Pray for me. 

[JSpencer]

22 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I think my wallet is now completely blown.

 

My 7 year old son (always been a massive fan of the APT) has now discovered the Hornby catalogue I bought. He also wants to add more Class 66's, and even the 50s in GBRf have intrigued him. He also wants a GWR HST set. And by set, I mean a full 2+8 set with all the coaches Hornby are listing now. 

 

Pray for me. 

 

My dad had no problem with that. When I was a kid and saw the 1980 catalogue, I asked him for the APT. He replied "No" because I already had a High Speed train! And I got a diesel shunter instead.

 

 

 

[steam-driven boy]

13 minutes ago, TomE said:

 

Post Dave Jones, Dapol have significantly dialed back their N Gauge development with only a couple of new tool items announced, one of which seems to be in a state of permanent limbo. I Just can't see Dapol committing to a new N gauge project of APT proportions given their current direction and in this scale it's probably a type that better fits the RevolutioN model of establishing demand before production anyway.

 

With Bachmann's own problems persisting this would seem like the perfect time for Hornby to take advantage of the situation, build on the groundwork of the Brighton Belle and steal a bigger piece of the N Gauge market for themselves, but there is no sign of any will to do so from Margate whatsoever. The Class 800 would have been a perfect example to scale down. A new train in service with several operators over a wide area of the country and likely to see many, many liveries over their lifetime meaning plenty of opportunity to recoup the cost of the tooling. but instead they sat back and let it be picked off by Kato. 

 

Tom. 

 

Hi,

It seems to me that at least some people are either confused, or maybe clutching at straws, when it comes to the Arnold Brighton Belle.

Simon Kohler made it very clear just after the BB was announced that it had:

Quote

...nothing to do with Margate...

Well, with Hornby back at Margate and SK back at Hornby I am certain the prospect of a sudden turn around from there is among the most unlikely of things that can be expected to happen.  The recent BB re-issue being more about return on investment than any fundamental change in attitude towards N.

It could be seen to signal to other manufacturers that the way is almost certainly clear to develop their own, but who will want to risk the level of investment solely in an N gauge APT-P project?

I can't help wondering if Kato, having announced the Class 800 as an almost inevitable opening for them into British Prototypes, might be tempted by a big project as iconic as anything that has operated on British rails?  They have a history with multiple units, and might just possibly see it as a way to raise their brand name in this country to a higher degree than the, to outsiders at least, bewildering number of important but notionally mundane mu subjects to follow on from the Class 800.  They probably could create quite a spread of interest in their already established world wide market, their Japan-centric mu sets do have such a following.

At present, although it isn't a r-t-r project, progress has continued on a 3D printed set and may deliver a viable 'one piece at a time' certain solution for those willing to take on that challenge.

 

Regards, Gerry.

[woodenhead]

But maybe Kato just see it as a Hitachi model rather than a British model and that is the only reason they are doing it for their collectors.

 

I don't think Kato being involved in 009 with Peco has any bearing either with regards an entry into British modelling outside of commissioning or specials like the 800.

 

Like it or not, Farish have the general N gauge market development to themselves at the moment with Dapol & RevolutioN keeping them honest.

[TomE]

1 hour ago, steam-driven boy said:

Hi,

It seems to me that at least some people are either confused, or maybe clutching at straws, when it comes to the Arnold Brighton Belle.

Simon Kohler made it very clear just after the BB was announced that it had:

 

 

I thought I had seen that mentioned somewhere but wasn't 100% certain that was the case.

 

Quote

Well, with Hornby back at Margate and SK back at Hornby I am certain the prospect of a sudden turn around from there is among the most unlikely of things that can be expected to happen.  The recent BB re-issue being more about return on investment than any fundamental change in attitude towards N.

 

Sadly I suspect you are 100% correct there. 

 

Tom.  

Edited January 9, 2020 by TomE

[RedgateModels]

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

My dad had no problem with that. When I was a kid and saw the 1980 catalogue, I asked him for the APT. He replied "No" because I already had a High Speed train! And I got a diesel shunter instead.

 

 

 

 

I had to combine my Christmas and Birthday money to get the APT. I did have the HST too

[lyneux]

45 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 

I had to combine my Christmas and Birthday money to get the APT. I did have the HST too

 

I did that too (saved for a year) and just as I was ready to order it from Hattons, it got vetoed by my mum!

 

Grrrr.... still resentful of that.

 

Still, I can make up for it at the age of 44 by buying a full 14 car set when it comes out (despite the fact that it never ran to Whatley!).

 

Guy

 

[JSpencer]

28 minutes ago, lyneux said:

 

I did that too (saved for a year) and just as I was ready to order it from Hattons, it got vetoed by my mum!

 

Grrrr.... still resentful of that.

 

Still, I can make up for it at the age of 44 by buying a full 14 car set when it comes out (despite the fact that it never ran to Whatley!).

 

Guy

 

 

 

That is what I'm doing. I did get an APT second hand later as an adult but to have my own, entirely new full set while make up for what I missed as a child. Mind you, it might still get vetoed by my wife!