Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[stovepipe]

3 hours ago, tinsley-toton said:

So that formation is pretty much the same that is shown on the 'Side profile' partway down the APT Wikipedia page (View will scroll along and enlarge too).

 

T-T

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_370

 

Yes exactly the same, although the main point is that the 14-car sets were very rarely used in public service, and that mixed-up sets were the norm. The formation above has cars from all of the 6 half-sets built. In the second phase of public operation in 1983 and 1984, the formation was always 10-cars, as far as I can tell. Whilst many will understandably want the a perfect full 14-car set, with matching numbers, it is not wrong to be running a shorter set, with miss-matched numbers.

[GordonC]

15 hours ago, stovepipe said:

 

Yes exactly the same, although the main point is that the 14-car sets were very rarely used in public service, and that mixed-up sets were the norm. The formation above has cars from all of the 6 half-sets built. In the second phase of public operation in 1983 and 1984, the formation was always 10-cars, as far as I can tell. Whilst many will understandably want the a perfect full 14-car set, with matching numbers, it is not wrong to be running a shorter set, with miss-matched numbers.

 

I'd noticed that about the formation too and I had no idea the coaches mixed and matched as much, especially those where the bogies were shared with adjacent coaches. I wonder what would cause coaches to be swapped out like that and whether it was a big job where they shared bogies.

 

Does anyone know whether the APT half-sets ever worked anywhere separately? I've seen the 14-car stabled as 2 halves before, could they work with driving car at the front and just the power car at the rear?

 

I wonder whether there would be any mileage in Hornby offering an APT driving car with the nose up and coupling accessible like another add-on pack for diesel loco haulage. Could that offer additional sales as they did get towed around either intentionally or unintentionally! ...

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

The towing around was always intentionally; unnplanned perhaps; but always intentionally.

[GordonC]

21 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

The towing around was always intentionally; unnplanned perhaps; but always intentionally.

 

ok, 'unintentionally' is perhaps the wrong word and 'unplanned' better ...

[Legend]

I think you had to have a Driving car and brake(much like the original Hornby format) either side of the power car , but I'm sure Driving car, brake, 2 power cars and a half set on the other side ie 6 cars was relatively common in the tests , giving a 10 car unit . Still too big for my layout I'm afraid . I think the max I can accom is 7.

[MGR Hooper!]

From the KMRC facebook page

 

[Bigeddie]

On 07/01/2020 at 16:24, Mike Harvey said:

One useful link I found on the DJModels APT-P topic was this. Can't see it on this thread though I may well have missed it.

 

http://www.apt-p.com/APTConfigurations.htm

 

http://www.apt-p.com/aptindex.htm

I was looking through the br leaflets for the prototype and found one that shows an 8 car set with two ndm's a tf and a ts in addition to the two tbf's and two dts. Which as an 8 car set might run on more layouts. But does not show on the apt-p website configurations, does anyone know if thismactually ran or was it just in the promo leaflets?

 

similarly a 6 car half set and, interestingly a 9 car full set that is marked up as having a single power car with one dts and one brake coach " no public access"

 

any better info would be appreciated.

[Bigeddie]

On 14/01/2020 at 08:53, guarded said:

Thank you for this!I remember a copy of Railnews,from October 1980,that had a pull-out special on the APT that ran to about 8 pages,and had diagrams of full trains.My Uncle bought me it home from where he worked as a fitter at Finsbury Park about 2 days after I bought the Hornby set.I wish I knew what happened to it.

Hey Guarded is this the one?   

Edited January 18, 2020 by Bigeddie
Upload failed

[oleander]

On 14/01/2020 at 13:29, Dan Griffin said:

I've had a read through this thread but couldn't find the answer, so can anyone shed any light on the development vehicle they are making as a stand alone car? I have seen a pic online of the coach but would like to know if it will have conventional couplings or special APT couplings on each end.

Hi Dan

To try and answer your question. Note this is more guess work.

I asked about the tilt system and several people have said it will be mechanical ,like the old one. Also the development vehicle could only run between the brake and the power car. Taking that info I would say the model will come with a coupeling system not to disimular to the orignal. It work well . I very much doubt it will be able to couple to normal tension lock couplings. You never know it mich come with an nem box. As for the articulated coaches I seen a 3D print which would seam to indecate the boge is one instead of spliting in half like the old one did. 
This is some thing I am waiting to see how Hornby workes this out.

 

John

[ThaneofFife]

Quote

be interesting too to see how the driving trailers will get power for the lights given that presumably the motor will come in the motor coach where there is plenty of space.  no mention of interior lighting and and that RRPs we have seen I do not expect this feature for the price but would expect cab lights and directional lighting just how they will control it will be interesting if there are no special electrical couplings....

 

[John ks]

20 minutes ago, ThaneofFife said:

 

My best guess would be that the DTs will have pickups (very similar to Hornby's original APT)

looking at the prices(RRP rounded to the nearest £) for a 5 car set

£395 for 5 car set

£110 for a NDM 

£90 for a 2 coach pack (comparing the cost of a TF to a DT may not be quite fair but for this argument I think it might be OK)

So 4 coaches + a MDN comes to £290 which is £105 less than the 5 car pack

That £105 would go to fitting a DCC ready lighting board & directional lighting in both DTs

For a 5 car pack you would need 3 decoders for DCC

For a 7 car pack you would need 4 decoders for DCC ( I am guessing that the 2nd NDM in the 7 car pack is powered based on the separate NDM R3948 having a 5 pole motor according to the 2020 cattledog catalogue)

Most of the above is speculation & when/if I am proved wrong I'll be happy to be corrected

John 

 

[guarded]

16 hours ago, Bigeddie said:

Hey Guarded is this the one?   

 

Probably.Could you try it again please?

[ThaneofFife]

Quote

be interesting too to see how the driving trailers will get power for the lights given that presumably the motor will come in the motor coach where there is plenty of space.  no mention of interior lighting and and that RRPs we have seen I do not expect this feature for the price but would expect cab lights and directional lighting just how they will control it will be interesting if there are no special electrical couplings....

 

19 hours ago, John ks said:

My best guess would be that the DTs will have pickups (very similar to Hornby's original APT)

looking at the prices(RRP rounded to the nearest £) for a 5 car set

£395 for 5 car set

£110 for a NDM 

£90 for a 2 coach pack (comparing the cost of a TF to a DT may not be quite fair but for this argument I think it might be OK)

So 4 coaches + a MDN comes to £290 which is £105 less than the 5 car pack

That £105 would go to fitting a DCC ready lighting board & directional lighting in both DTs

For a 5 car pack you would need 3 decoders for DCC

For a 7 car pack you would need 4 decoders for DCC ( I am guessing that the 2nd NDM in the 7 car pack is powered based on the separate NDM R3948 having a 5 pole motor according to the 2020 cattledog catalogue)

Most of the above is speculation & when/if I am proved wrong I'll be happy to be corrected

John 

 

youve said speculation but that is very wild speculation IMHO to think the new APT will need 3 or even 4 decoders !  If it were to (even at 3) then I reckon it would quickly garner some very widespread disappointment.   this is why I am quite interested in how they are going to wire this train.    they can't not have at least directional lights so powers got to be fed through somehow from the power car or maybe like the Bachmann blue pullman you have 2 decoders at most one in each driving car with a slimline motor under the floor/seat moulding and the central power car (s) are just empty dummys.

i think itll one motor in the power car with through electrical couplers. But if youre gonna run wires through each trailer you might as well fit interior lights to each one for an all singing all dancing APT.  Time will hopefully reveal the technical spec.......   

[Rob F]

On 13/01/2020 at 15:41, Phil Parker said:

 

I'm sure that if you throw enough money at something it would be possible. I'm imagining some sort of electronic actuators operated by an on-board computer that takes into account the curvature of the train, speed and phase of the moon.

 

Adding this would multiple the cost of the set many times, but if you really want it, I'm sure Hornby could oblige for a price. The rest of us will just enjoy the tilting train as it comes, no matter if it's not perfect. Let's face it, most APT's will run without overhead and there's only one prototypical example of that.

I am not sure the slightly confrontational and defensive tone to this reply was really required. I simply asked a question and the way it was phrased implied that I believed it to be too difficult to implement. 
 

I will almost certainly buy an APT as I have wanted one since I was a child and I will definitely enjoy it, just like the ‘rest’ of you. However, full tilt at a scale 5mph is definitely not prototypical and I cannot understand why it is a problem to mention it.

[Dixie Dean]

59 minutes ago, ThaneofFife said:

... the new APT will need 3 or even 4 decoders !  If it were to (even at 3) then I reckon it would quickly garner some very widespread disappointment ...

 

My old Hornby APT (now 7 car) does have 3 decoders, albeit older ESU v 3.5 ones.  One does the power car, others do the front/tail lights and compressor noises at each end.

[TomScrut]

4 hours ago, ThaneofFife said:

 

youve said speculation but that is very wild speculation IMHO to think the new APT will need 3 or even 4 decoders !  If it were to (even at 3) then I reckon it would quickly garner some very widespread disappointment.   this is why I am quite interested in how they are going to wire this train.    they can't not have at least directional lights so powers got to be fed through somehow from the power car or maybe like the Bachmann blue pullman you have 2 decoders at most one in each driving car with a slimline motor under the floor/seat moulding and the central power car (s) are just empty dummys.

i think itll one motor in the power car with through electrical couplers. But if youre gonna run wires through each trailer you might as well fit interior lights to each one for an all singing all dancing APT.  Time will hopefully reveal the technical spec.......   

 

The 800s need 2 decoders, so I get the logic with the APT needing 3 if the motor is in the power car. But I would think the more likely outcome would be putting the motor at the front of a driving car to keep this configuration.

 

Oddly enough my 221 is in that configuration, with a Lokpilot in the middle and Lokpilot FXs at each end. But I did this myself it wasn't done by Bachmann!

 

But you would think even with the 800 they could have made a power coupler (especially given that it would have been useful here too) to save needing two decoders. And likewise on here if they haven't done that.

 

It should only need 3 connections if pickups are limited to the power car?

Edited January 19, 2020 by TomScrut

[TomScrut]

3 hours ago, Rob F said:

I am not sure the slightly confrontational and defensive tone to this reply was really required. I simply asked a question and the way it was phrased implied that I believed it to be too difficult to implement. 
 

I will almost certainly buy an APT as I have wanted one since I was a child and I will definitely enjoy it, just like the ‘rest’ of you. However, full tilt at a scale 5mph is definitely not prototypical and I cannot understand why it is a problem to mention it.

 

I think a more important option would be a simple way to lock the cars. So a low speed layout can be prototypical and also on higher speed ones with the right sort of curves. This would probably satisfy a decent proportion of the people who don't like the low speed tilt as a guess?

[oleander]

12 hours ago, Rob F said:

I am not sure the slightly confrontational and defensive tone to this reply was really required. I simply asked a question and the way it was phrased implied that I believed it to be too difficult to implement. 
 

I will almost certainly buy an APT as I have wanted one since I was a child and I will definitely enjoy it, just like the ‘rest’ of you. However, full tilt at a scale 5mph is definitely not prototypical and I cannot understand why it is a problem to mention it.

While tilting at 5mpn is not prototypical not is going through set track point.
It all about costs. The old system of the 1980s model had if flaws like you mention but it was cheap.
To get what you talk about would add massive cost. Lets look at it on a 14 car set. 

Each bogie will need a servo so thats  18 bogies,but some are artuicalaed .  So 28 servos.  28 tilt mechinasim

Each bogie would need a sensor to know when the bogie is going through a curve, so thats 18 sensors

Each car would need a servo driver board. so 14 boards.

Then we would need to send a signal to each board saying no tilt do to slow running etc. So we could put a chip in each car or have a data bus ,but then we need plugs etc. So a Chip would be easier. The chip and servo driver board could be intergrated .
I am only skimming over the detail. This would be complex and expensive.
John

Edited January 19, 2020 by oleander
wrong amount of servos

[Gibbo675]

On 12/01/2020 at 11:16, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Folks,

 

I built this in N gauge:

 

 

It doesn't tilt but looks just fine on straight track !!!

 

Here are some discussion points:

1. What is the mechanism fitted to the OO gauge APT-E and Pendelino models et cetera ?
2. The Hornby tilt mechanism is great if you have set track curves which will result in pretty much full tilt when running through point work and almost nothing on near to scale gentle curves.
3. All trains look better for elevated track on curves which isn't often done in model form.
4. Scale curves that would require full tilt at over 125mph are generally huge in radius even scaled in N gauge.
5. Generally 4.5 chains is a minimum radius curve in yards taken a 5mph, and incidentally works out at 46.77" in OO gauge.
6. Most model railway curves, unless worked at a scale 5mph, ought to produce results such as the Morpeth sleeper train with or with out tilt !
7. The curve at Morpeth has a radius 17 chains with a full 6" of elevation and a 50mph speed limit, this scales at 176.77" or 14' 9" in OO gauge.
8. Imagination is a wonderful tool available to all humans should they choose to use it, could this be a first world problem ?

 

Gibbo.

Hi Folks,

 

I'm still impressed that after all this talk of tilting servos, lighting bus bars, possible types of couplings and numerous decoders that should anyone wish to build a figure eight layout to run it around a curve scaled to that of the curve at Morpeth at say a scale 75 mph, the layout would be the size of a tennis court.

 

Saw the real deal in Crewe today, it does look quite forlorn !

 

Gibbo.

[Bigeddie]

On 18/01/2020 at 22:50, guarded said:

 

Probably.Could you try it again please?

Well hopefully a low res of one side of the pullout is attached, the other side is various articles. The whole thing is 5.7mb.

[John ks]

In an earlier post I speculated that you would need 3 or 4 decoders for the 5 & 7 cat APT sets

 

Will the NDM be powered? Yes, see page 61 of 2020 catalogue R3948 NDM has a 5-pole motor

 

Will there be wiring through the length of the train? I don't think so, no mention of coach lighting so not necessary

 

Will the DTs need pickups for directional lighting? Yes, see previous answer

 

Number of Decoders needed? 1 for each power car & 1 for each DT

 

The class 43 & Class 800 both require 2 decoders if you want the directional lighting to function correctly

 

I stand by my previous speculation

John

[guarded]

10 hours ago, Bigeddie said:

Well hopefully a low res of one side of the pullout is attached, the other side is various articles. The whole thing is 5.7mb.

Wonderful!!Thank you so much this has made my day!Practically everything you'd want to know in one concise article.

[Steven B]

Most (if not all) two car DMUs need two decoders to control the motor and lighting.  A 14 vehicle train will be over £700 and folk so if spending £80 for four decoders really a deal breaker? I guess it will for some.

 

Steven B.

 

 

[JSpencer]

27 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Most (if not all) two car DMUs need two decoders to control the motor and lighting.  A 14 vehicle train will be over £700 and folk so if spending £80 for four decoders really a deal breaker? I guess it will for some.

 

Steven B.

 

 

 

Hopefully they will be easy to fit.  Nothing breaks the heart more (well maybe) than writing off an end car trying to get a simple chip inside it on a £700 model.

 

[TomScrut]

13 hours ago, John ks said:

In an earlier post I speculated that you would need 3 or 4 decoders for the 5 & 7 cat APT sets

 

Will the NDM be powered? Yes, see page 61 of 2020 catalogue R3948 NDM has a 5-pole motor

 

Will there be wiring through the length of the train? I don't think so, no mention of coach lighting so not necessary

 

Will the DTs need pickups for directional lighting? Yes, see previous answer

 

Number of Decoders needed? 1 for each power car & 1 for each DT

 

The class 43 & Class 800 both require 2 decoders if you want the directional lighting to function correctly

 

I stand by my previous speculation

John

 

Speculation it could have been but it was sensible speculation based on things we know.