7APT7 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 18 minutes ago, Jamiel said: I had a quick look and found ‘Modern Locomotives Illustrated No. 176 Blue Pullman and the APT fleets’. Worth getting if you can find a copy. Here are a couple of photos of short sets being pulled on the ECML and between Carlisle and Newcastle. Here the top image shows one of the sets I posted above, and another that only has a single APT power car. I hope these offer some interesting modelling opportunities. Not sure Hornby are doing a lifting front canopy, so to model the first two images might involve taking a razor saw to a new and expensive model. Jamie Hi Jamiel Those are suburb photos of the class 37101 to enable to mimic on your Layout and as it's the 5-Car Set, so even the old Hornby 80's 5-Car Set can be replicated with the only having to adapt and enable it to connect to the Class 37 in some way. I just hope Hornby think's about the APT-P Nose Cone on the Hornby 2020 APT-P to enable it to connect using some NEM socket under the Nose Cone of the APT-P... Great Photos Jamiel Regards Jamie 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Hi Jamiel I notice the Top Photo above as the 6-Car Units that John ks must have been referring to earlier the thread when he said QUOTE "According to Wikipedia there were 6 half sets, 6 N-DMs & as spares 1 DTS & 1 TBF numbered 48107 & 48607" I wonder if looking at this photo above is what makes up One of the "6 half sets"...? Ranging from the DTS with Full Yellow Fronted Ends to the 6th Coach being the N-DM Power Coach...!?! Then connected to the RTC (Blue&Red) Coach that is connected to the Prototype HST on the very End as its main power source. Great Photos... Regards Jamie 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 7APT7 Said "I notice the Top Photo above as the 6-Car Units that John ks must have been referring to earlier the thread when he said QUOTE "According to Wikipedia there were 6 half sets, 6 N-DMs & as spares 1 DTS & 1 TBF numbered 48107 & 48607"" The top picture looks to be a HSTD + RTC Coach + ND M + 5 Apt coaches When I say half set perhaps I should have said half train & by that I meant 6 APT coaches(DTS,TS,TRBS,TU,TF,TBF), So a half train(6 APT coaches ) + 2 ND Ms +half train = full in service 14 car train From reading previous threads a half train EG 370 001 may not have been made up of number matching coaches Have seen pictures of 370 007(48107 DTS) leading a train with at least 4 APT coaches between it & the ND M I did a little looking at APT images & of the ones I could identify I couldn't find an image of set 370 004 with black ends Could only find 370 001,003,004 with full yellow ends Here's another can of worms for the rivet counters Of the yellow ended ones I saw none had InterCity APT written on the nose Of the black nose ones the lettering varied with the Double arrows being solid colour or just an outline, InterCity solid black lettering, APT being solid black or, red or yellow outlined in black Regarding the nose, I hope it is at least removable similar to the class 800 Hitachi Hope this is a little clearer than mud John PS As you may have noticed I'm from OZ so most of my knowledge regarding the APT comes from places like this & the internet My firsthand experience with the APT-P was on the last day of the Electric Rail Museum where I saw a very sad looking ND M & met Mr Tilt , I later saw that ND M at Crew with the rest of the surviving APT-P cars 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guarded Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Regarding when the black window surrounds were first fitted,all I can add is I received one of the very first APT sets in October 1980 with the gold surround,yet the photo on the instruction sheet showed a model with the black surround which of course was launched next year as the train pack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted February 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2020 The first black-fronted APT-Ps were reported in the railway press on 370 005 and 006 in August 1980. I think 370 004 may have lasted quite a while after that with the original all-yellow front. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, John ks said: The top picture looks to be a HSTD + RTC Coach + ND M + 5 Apt coaches When I say half set perhaps I should have said half train & by that I meant 6 APT coaches(DTS,TS,TRBS,TU,TF,TBF), So a half train(6 APT coaches ) + 2 ND Ms +half train = full in service 14 car train Hi John ks Yes, I read it correctly then, as you explained it clear here from part of your POST... being (2 Sets of...) 6-Half-Sets either side of the 'Two N-DM' followed by the 6-Half-Sets 6+2+6 = 14-Car Set. 16 hours ago, John ks said: I did a little looking at APT images & of the ones I could identify I couldn't find an image of set 370 004 with black ends Could only find 370 001,003,004 with full yellow ends Hi John, I'm taking it 370 002 must have had Yellow Ends ... and I agree with regards to 370 004 nowhere to be seen with Black Ends... either on that one... 16 hours ago, John ks said: Here's another can of worms for the rivet counters Of the yellow ended ones I saw none had InterCity APT written on the nose Of the black nose ones the lettering varied with the Double arrows being solid colour or just an outline, InterCity solid black lettering, APT being solid black or, red or yellow outlined in black Yes, this one made my laugh and your right... which one will Hornby Produce... the Hornby 80's on the Black Framed Surrounds was Solid Black 'InterCity' while the 'Double Arrows' and 'APT' were Outlined Yellow in Black... ><InterCityAPT / ><InterCityAPT / ><InterCityAPT / ><InterCityAPT I preferred the the APT when it was in RED personally, or certainly with the Wording than without, and now you mention it, were these time fads the APT went through in its short period of Life Time...? I would be interested to know when...? or on which 370 numbers....? was each of these types used on the APT-P. Thanks John ks for all the info.... Regards Jamie Edited February 2, 2020 by 7APT7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRail642fan Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 On 26/01/2020 at 17:14, 7APT7 said: Hi WestRail642fan Yes, I did notice only one pantograph I was surprised not to see another one at the other end of the 12-Car set but from the look of the coach there seem to be nothing outwardly visible to say it was the Power car apart from the Pantograph on the roof at the one end that is and those don't have the smaller mini Coach either do they... smart class of train though. Regards Jamie That might be because they only run with one up per direction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted February 3, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2020 Getting deja vu? Usually if only one is needed to power a train the other is a spare so the train isn’t stranded if there’s a de-wire and it’s damaged. If you lose the rear one there’s a good chance the momentum will carry the train far enough for the front one to be raised to rescue the train once the damaged one is safe. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neal Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 I think Hornby knew something we didn’t when they decided upon this release: https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2020/01/31/east-west-rail-line-route-chosen/ Varsity line special - sickbags included! Neal 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted February 3, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2020 That’s the original APT livery proposal! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 2 hours ago, neal said: I think Hornby knew something we didn’t when they decided upon this release: https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2020/01/31/east-west-rail-line-route-chosen/ Varsity line special - sickbags included! Neal Hi neal Yeah.... like a bit of free publicity, I reckon... lol to HELP Our (Hornby's) APT-P sell and help the share price go up as it's been fairly level for the last few years... haha Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 52 minutes ago, PaulRhB said: That’s the original APT livery proposal! Hi PaulRhB We better not mock it to early, they did Only Announce an APT-P in 5-Car & 7-Car Set along with Twin Packs of TU, TF, TS, and TRBS, Plus Extra N-DM and Ex-TU will be available, nowhere have I read that it says what the livery will be in to my knowledge... lol We are all presuming it's the Original APT-P Livery Colours... No one ever saw that coming did they... haha One year on... we will be READING POSTS... Well How do we like our Hi-Vis Orange with Black Line down the side with a blob of Yellow paint on the Nose Cone...!?! I'd be like ... Eh ... (while lmao) ... What the Flip ... Man ... What have I bought ... (if it was... NOT!) lol Well at least I will be able to replace all my Old Lima Door Stoppers for Shiny New Hornby Ones... WIN/WIN all round... hey! yaya Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRail642fan Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 I've got a question regarding the new APT, do we know if it will have full interior lighting or just directional lighting? asking as in the 2020 Hornby Catalog, it has a light build icon on the APT's page, but it also has the icon next to the new 395 they're releasing and that just has directional lighting 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted February 4, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 4, 2020 1 hour ago, WestRail642fan said: I've got a question regarding the new APT, do we know if it will have full interior lighting or just directional lighting? asking as in the 2020 Hornby Catalog, it has a light build icon on the APT's page, but it also has the icon next to the new 395 they're releasing and that just has directional lighting We don’t know WestRail. It’s not been announced . However normal Hornby practice is directional lighting . Also if you look at prices I’d be surprised if they have full interior lighting at £40 a coach . But it’s just supposition on my part 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, WestRail642fan said: I've got a question regarding the new APT, do we know if it will have full interior lighting or just directional lighting? asking as in the 2020 Hornby Catalog, it has a light build icon on the APT's page, but it also has the icon next to the new 395 they're releasing and that just has directional lighting 11 hours ago, Legend said: We don’t know WestRail. It’s not been announced . However normal Hornby practice is directional lighting . Also if you look at prices I’d be surprised if they have full interior lighting at £40 a coach . But it’s just supposition on my part Hi WestRail642fan I totally Agree Legend to and like you say WestRail642fan... 11 hours ago, Legend said: icon next to the new 395 they're releasing and that just has directional lighting I'd go with Directional Lighting Only personally if it as that Picture next to the APT-P (I certainly wouldn't expect any more than that), and as Legend says QUOTE: "if you look at prices I’d be surprised if they have full interior lighting at £40 a coach" You only have to look at Bachmann DCC Fitted with Lights now at £65-£75 plus pounds PER COACH and Bachmann Coaches are a far more Superior Coach (in my eyes ONLY) than any of the Hornby's Coaches, saying that the Hornby MK2F @£31.99 are getting better, looks wise, fare better that the Hornby Mk2D/E's. I guess the 3D Scanning of the APT-P will also help get the coach more spot on accuracy wise. I would like to see Hornby do a Lighting Bar though if I'm honest for the Coaches as an ADDED Extra as in... Sold separately like LTM aka London Transport Museum did for the LTD ED 'Bachmann 35-990, 35-997, 35-995, 35-995A, 35-996 London Underground S-Stock Motorised 4 Car Train Pack', With an Extra 4 S-Stock Coaches Sold Extra making it an 8-Car Set and also they sold a Internal Lighting Bar sold separately for Each Coach (or may have been a 4-Pack Lighting Bars, can't quiet remember now...!?! Regards Jamie Sorry I mean to take the QUOTE from WestRail642fan (Original) not Legend who was Quoting the same QUOTE Edited February 4, 2020 by 7APT7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Hi to All... Would I be correct in saying there were Two APT-P Buffet Cars aka TRBS on most of the bigger Rakes of the APT-P, One each side of the Centre Power Cars aka N-DM Cars...? and both were 2nd class Buffet Cars with no First Class Buffet Cars... Hmmm (I'm guessing that would make it a TRBF) Taking the TRBS the S = Second Class that is...!?! Were they always placed 3rd/4th in from DTS end of the 7 Coaches to the N-DM... (Inclusive) or could this differ depending on the Rake Formations at the time...? Also Regarding to the APT-P TU Coach APT-P TU (Trailer Unclassified) coach were these more of an oddity APT-P coach to have or put in the APT-P Rake, making more of the APT-P TS coaches and APT-P TF coaches with fewer or none APT-P TU Coaches in any One Rake at all...? Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 The 7 coach half sets were always in the same formation when in service, the formation didnt change as they were effectively fixed formations. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted February 6, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 6, 2020 4 hours ago, 7APT7 said: Hi to All... Would I be correct in saying there were Two APT-P Buffet Cars aka TRBS on most of the bigger Rakes of the APT-P, One each side of the Centre Power Cars aka N-DM Cars...? and both were 2nd class Buffet Cars with no First Class Buffet Cars... Hmmm (I'm guessing that would make it a TRBF) Taking the TRBS the S = Second Class that is...!?! Were they always placed 3rd/4th in from DTS end of the 7 Coaches to the N-DM... (Inclusive) or could this differ depending on the Rake Formations at the time...? Also Regarding to the APT-P TU Coach APT-P TU (Trailer Unclassified) coach were these more of an oddity APT-P coach to have or put in the APT-P Rake, making more of the APT-P TS coaches and APT-P TF coaches with fewer or none APT-P TU Coaches in any One Rake at all...? Regards Jamie DTS-TS-TRSB-TU-TF-TBF-NDM-NDM-TBF-TF-TU-TRSB-TS-DTS They were effectively mirrored either side of the power cars. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said: DTS-TS-TRSB-TU-TF-TBF-NDM-NDM-TBF-TF-TU-TRSB-TS-DTS They were effectively mirrored either side of the power cars. Oh OK, so APT-P TU Coach in every Mirror so to speak... Do we know what Seating was for the (TU, Trailer Unclassified) as in Tartan Pattern in the TU Coaches had, Red Second or Blue First or 50/50...? Regards Jamie Edited February 6, 2020 by 7APT7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APT-P Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, 7APT7 said: seating was for the (TU, Trailer Unclassified) as in Tartan Pattern in the TU Coaches had, Red Second or Blue First or 50/50... All the TU's had red tartan (Maclaine of Lochbuie) covers but on the wider 2+1 first class style seats. First picture is a still from Round Trip to Glasgow and second is by Chris Boyce. Edited February 7, 2020 by APT-P 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Interesting that they used a pair of modified Class 37s in those ECML drag tests to get to 100mph - I'd have thought there would have been loco types available capable of 100mph or where it was closer to their design speed like 47s or 50s (since the deltics would have gone by then). I wonder what modifications they made to the 37s too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, GordonC said: Interesting that they used a pair of modified Class 37s in those ECML drag tests to get to 100mph - I'd have thought there would have been loco types available capable of 100mph or where it was closer to their design speed like 47s or 50s (since the deltics would have gone by then). I wonder what modifications they made to the 37s too. As the 37s have the same traction motors and gearing as the 50s no modifications would have been required. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, royaloak said: As the 37s have the same traction motors and gearing as the 50s no modifications would have been required. They have the same bogies, is the gearing is not different though when they have a maximum speed of 90mph and 50149 got a pair of Class 37 bogies and had its max speed lowered to 80mph for its freight tests didn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, GordonC said: They have the same bogies, is the gearing is not different though when they have a maximum speed of 90mph and 50149 got a pair of Class 37 bogies and had its max speed lowered to 80mph for its freight tests didn't it? The refurbished 37s got bogies with different gearing (CP7), a pair of these were put under 50149, the standard 37s were the same as the standard 50s, and to all intents and purposes the 55s as well, some 37s received cast bogies from withdrawn Deltics complete with traction motors etc, one of the preserved 37s was found to have bogies and traction motors marked up as 55006 (or something like that) so they are all interchangeable. As for the gearing, some standard 37s were fitted with CP7 bogies which gave us the 'proper 37/3 subclass which isnt to be confused with 37300 to 37308 which were standard 37s until they were renumbered or converted to free up the 373xx number range for the conversions. A lot of locos are speed 'restricted' by doing nothing more than changing the details on the data panel and in the cab, 26s, 27s, 31s, 50s all had 'sticker' engineering during their lives, normally when allocated to infrastructure duties. Added to stop the pedants pointing it out- When built the 55s were fitted with fabricated bogies which were found to crack under the strain of continuous high speed running, these were replaced with cast bogies diverted from the 37 production line and the replaced bogies put under 37s, when the 55s were withdrawn any sold into preservation had the cast bogies replaced with fabricated ones and the cast ones placed under 37s. There are other things which I am sure our more pedantic posters will take great pride in pointing out I have missed out but I feel this post is long enough, much more info about bogies is available if you want to be bored senseless by it but enough is enough for now. Edited February 7, 2020 by royaloak 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBird Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 On 01/02/2020 at 23:08, Jamiel said: ... Not sure Hornby are doing a lifting front canopy, so to model the first two images might involve taking a razor saw to a new and expensive model. Jamie That's what the old Hornby model is for... 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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