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Hornby APT (2020 tooling)


PaulRhB
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20 hours ago, rembrow said:

I've just had a reply from Hornby about the queries I raised on 9th January. The makeup of the 5 car and 7 car sets was confirmed as already advised in the late January Engine Shed, however the adviser had to ask Paul Isles to answer the question of how many motorised cars are in the 7 car set (R3784). The answer from Paul, is that the 7 car set, while having two NDM models, will only have one of them motorised, the other will be unmotorised.

He advised that Hornby had envisaged that those wanting a full 14 car rake, would start from the 5 car set (R3873), which is why they have made the additional power car R3948, as suitable for the other coaches in the 5 car set. If this is their thinking, why have they made available the additional coaches for the 7 car set, in order to get a 14 car set. As we know from Paul's earlier response to RM member 60800, there will be livery differences between the sets, with the 5 car set having the full yellow front on the driving cars and the 7 car set having the black window surrounds.

As I want the later black window surrounds, more typical of the use in timetabled passenger service, I think I will have to invest in the separate power car, R3948, and hope the body swaps with the unmotorized version in the 7 car set, or change the coach number.


So with my desire for a ten car set made as 2+2+6 to represent the late service condition, and the fact I would quite like it to climb gradients, I'm now looking at buying SIXTEEN vehicles to make a ten car train, two of which have to be taken apart and reassembled to make what I need?

I understand the collector side of this, particularly given it's the anniversary year, but have Hornby forgotten that people might want to use these trains on a layout, representing how they existed in the real world?

I can't be all that unique in wanting this particular train formation, can I?

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2 hours ago, Bloodnok said:


So with my desire for a ten car set made as 2+2+6 to represent the late service condition, and the fact I would quite like it to climb gradients, I'm now looking at buying SIXTEEN vehicles to make a ten car train, two of which have to be taken apart and reassembled to make what I need?

I understand the collector side of this, particularly given it's the anniversary year, but have Hornby forgotten that people might want to use these trains on a layout, representing how they existed in the real world?

I can't be all that unique in wanting this particular train formation, can I?

 

I'm sure you're not alone, although how many people there will be is a good question.

 

Given all the possibilities, I think Hornby's done a good job of trying to meet most people's needs with the range.

 

There may also be people who want to create a 'hybrid' with a black-fronted and original style DTS, which requires a similar approach.

 

Thus, eBay will be your friend (unless the multi-coloured SwapShop swings into action on this site)

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I suspect most people will want an even-handed formation 4+2+4 or 2+1+2 or 3+1+3 or 6+2+6 or whatever combination but Hornby are never going to please everyone with every formation. What's the alternative? Make each trailer available separately maybe instead of matching pairs?

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2 hours ago, JDW said:

I suspect most people will want an even-handed formation 4+2+4 or 2+1+2 or 3+1+3 or 6+2+6 or whatever combination but Hornby are never going to please everyone with every formation. What's the alternative? Make each trailer available separately maybe instead of matching pairs?


2+1+2 will undoubtedly be popular, as will 2+2+2. But beyond this, why make a balanced set? Real life shortened sets were not balanced. The shortening was very biased to one or other side, hence the common 6+2+2 formation.
 

They sell plenty of individual coaches in their range at the moment. They'll even sell you the APT development / test coach individually, if you happen to want just that one and nothing else. If they really do need to sell the other coaches in pairs for some reason (I can't imagine what that reason might be), then I would have thought something like TS+TRSB as one pair and TF+TU as the other would have been infinitely preferable. Personally, a four car "extension pack" with one of each car in it would also have worked for me, although I appreciate that would not be as flexible for someone who does want a longer train but can't run ten cars on their layout.

Edit: Oh, wait, I figured it out.

It's pure collector-bait. To someone who wants one of each product type to put in their collection, and who will buy each different product (but not re-numbers), they have now been made to buy twice as many coaches as they would have bought with either single packaging or dissimilar coaches bundled together. It's not a design decision aimed at people who want to run trains. It's aimed at collectors who want to put boxes on shelves.

Edited by Bloodnok
I figured it out...
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Well the 1978 book arrived....

interesting MORE information in the 1978 Book compared to the 1979 Book, although there seems that the Running Number appear to be the same...

 

The 1978 Class 370 The Information above the numbers says, Six vehicles are on order as appose to the 1979 Book, which says, some vehicles now running on trails...

 

48101-48107 DTS (included the Spare)

48201-48212 TS

48401-48406 TRSB

48501-48506 TF

48601-48607 TBF (included the Spare)

49001-49006 N-DM

 

Interesting TS 482 Numbers had 12 Coaches are in the pipeline in both books...

The 1978 Book is even on the same Page Number as the 1979 Book...

 

1978 BOOK SAYS....

1969630741_BritishRail1978MotivePowerCombinedVolumeP133cLASS370APT-P1Mod1.jpg.b6377cb163f65218fb3d840bbf4e7b73.jpg

 

1979 BOOK SAYS....

1107149684_BritishRal1979MotivePowerCombinedVolumeP133Class370APTRMMod1.jpg.4a5bc10c2b53ee18e2ef943234d37d6d.jpg

 

 

1978 BOOK

1166430582_BritishRail1978MotivePowerCombinedVolume(FrontOnly)Mod1.jpg.9d5e9dc56672964a194400a0ddd4ddf0.jpg

 

 

Regards

Jamie

 

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I'm sure there will be ones on here aka RMWeb that will be able and willing to a fair trade type policy between us all... to exchange with each other's unwanted Coaches,...

 

When I say a fair trade... I mean trade a coach for a coach without paying again or extra inflated Prices... unless we are exchanging 2 for 3 then just pay half of the Hornby Twin Pack Price... makes perfect sense to me... even Free Postage Costs as both parties will be sending Coaches to Each Other, so both will pay Postage costs... its just a thought to take on board for all of us concerned...

 

But I do think that there will be "shops" that will no doubt Pull Twin Pack Apart to sell separately and then possible at extra cost to the buyer, maybe... 

 

I do think there will be many eBayer's that will do the same as the shops, I just hope the if that happens that the shops undercut the eBayer's rather than milk it to... then it just prevents ones like us APT-P lovers on here from getting the APT-P for the same Hornby Price by doing a Fair Trade Swap via PM to each...

 

Which is why between us all if we do have any spares coaches then Fair Trade is the best way, I would be willing to do that.. personally...!

 

Regards

Jamie

 

 

 

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Jamie the maximum premium that such sellers can add is 100%. Beyond that it is cheaper to buy the twin pack even if you only need one coach.

 

On reflection, the premium is much less than 100% because you can sell the surplus coach yourself.

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12 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Jamie the maximum premium that such sellers can add is 100%. Beyond that it is cheaper to buy the twin pack even if you only need one coach.

 

On reflection, the premium is much less than 100% because you can sell the surplus coach yourself.

 

Hi Colin

 

I think personally Colin, I prefer to have the extra coach sitting around than wishing I bough another Twin Pack and none to be found anywhere... than having to pay over the odds on eBay...

 

Just in case like the real APT had two spares coaches made, I prefer to do the same I think and have a spare coach for future mods or parts it I have to... trouble is the extra spare I want and prefer are only in the 5-car and 7-car sets and not in the Twin Packs which makes my spares even dearer to keep as a spare...  

 

It grieves me that Shops can go over the RRP Price... they should capped the price at the RRP price,... I know that will never happen lol

 

So only 49002 NDM is an Empty Un-Powered Coach with no motor inside it, (Dummy Only), have I read and understood the List Correctly ..? and the other three of the NDM will all be Powered with Motor's...! Well... I can stick a speaker in the Dummy 49002 NDM Coach if the Powered NDM Coach as no room inside it... that's good...

 

Regards

Jamie

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11 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

So only 49002 NDM is an Empty Un-Powered Coach with no motor inside it, (Dummy Only), have I read and understood the List Correctly ..? and the other three of the NDM will all be Powered with Motor's...! Well... I can stick a speaker in the Dummy 49002 NDM Coach if the Powered NDM Coach as no room inside it... that's good...

 

Hi 

 

The dummy could be useful if you wanted to model some of the test trains using the prototype HST power car, RTC coaches and a NDM from the APT.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

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I have been following the thread since day one. Lots of great info.
Given a 14 car train 12 coaches. I would say 2 power cars are required.
What I find Poor of Hornby is there crap website. No were on there website does it show what you get ,liverys coaches etc. It great some people on here have been able to get the info and share it. They should not have to as Hornby should be providing it on a clear to read website . Now to hear from the UK second biggest model shop that some itemes in the APT range are possible in short supply.
I was  hoping to go to Ali Pally show and speak to Hornby possible see some samples. Then place an order.
Hornby need to up there game . A non limited edition model should not be going in to short supply this early on. All that will do is give them a bad name .

john

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8 minutes ago, oleander said:


What I find Poor of Hornby is there crap website. No were on there website does it show what you get ,liverys coaches etc. It great some people on here have been able to get the info and share it. They should not have to as Hornby should be providing it on a clear to read website .

I find Hornby's website very disorganised.

It was so slow on release day that it became unusable. There really is no excuse for this. Cloud providers have really good & economic solutions to cope with variable demand, which makes them ideally suited for hosting a busy public website.

If you want to look for new releases, you have several pages to wade through. If a GWR modeller wants to look at what is suitable for them, they don't want to look at pages of HST & APT vehicles, so it should be possible to filter these out.

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Pete I full agree with you. In this day and age there is no reasion why a big company like Hornby can not have a good website.
My main grip is once you get to the APT section ,top tip dont search for APT but search for class 370 . Is wrong photos. They have a power car photo for a coach. They went to Crew to get info from the real train. You would think they could at least have the correct photo for the item.
Is it that hard for them to but in a discription of what you are going to get in the 5 and 7 car sets . It would apear it is .
john

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21 minutes ago, oleander said:

Pete I full agree with you. In this day and age there is no reasion why a big company like Hornby can not have a good website.
My main grip is once you get to the APT section ,top tip dont search for APT but search for class 370 . Is wrong photos. They have a power car photo for a coach. They went to Crew to get info from the real train. You would think they could at least have the correct photo for the item.
Is it that hard for them to but in a discription of what you are going to get in the 5 and 7 car sets . It would apear it is .
john

Yes, I saw that.

They also have a photo of a unit with the black cab window surrounds for the standalone coach & the same photo for both 5 & 7 car packs, even though we know that 1 will be the earlier yellow version.

It is often better to look at retailer's websites for more information, which just seems a bit wrong to me. Surely it is in the manufacturer's interest to show as much detail & as many features as they can?

It also seems a bit odd that class 370 gives better search results than APT (which I didn't know until just now, so thank you for that tip). I know it was the class 370, but some potential customers may not know this & it was always better known as APT.

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The marketing people will be responsible for the website design and content.

 

Given they are the same people who run the Engine Shed where they allowed SK to call the Bulleid shorties as 1930s coaches and describe a shunters truck a shunter in a Taunton BR livery then you know you are not dealing with people with a deep knowledge of the product.

 

Hornby are not talking to scale modellers on their forum and website, they are talking to hobbyists who are less inclined to be interested in the history and more in the idea of the train on their layouts.

 

Scale modellers do their own research so Hornby don't have to.

Edited by woodenhead
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5 hours ago, oleander said:

I have been following the thread since day one. Lots of great info.
Given a 14 car train 12 coaches. I would say 2 power cars are required.
What I find Poor of Hornby is there crap website. No were on there website does it show what you get ,liverys coaches etc. It great some people on here have been able to get the info and share it. They should not have to as Hornby should be providing it on a clear to read website . Now to hear from the UK second biggest model shop that some itemes in the APT range are possible in short supply.
I was  hoping to go to Ali Pally show and speak to Hornby possible see some samples. Then place an order.
Hornby need to up there game . A non limited edition model should not be going in to short supply this early on. All that will do is give them a bad name .

john

 

I agree, it should not have to be such an ordeal to get the information needed to place an order. I'm glad I didn't pre-order immediately - I don't think the 7-car is what I want anymore. 

 

On the one powered motor, although its 14 cars, it is only 18 bogies not 28, so it maybe OK on a flat layout.

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6 hours ago, oleander said:

Pete I full agree with you. In this day and age there is no reasion why a big company like Hornby can not have a good website.
My main grip is once you get to the APT section ,top tip dont search for APT but search for class 370 . Is wrong photos. They have a power car photo for a coach. They went to Crew to get info from the real train. You would think they could at least have the correct photo for the item.
Is it that hard for them to but in a discription of what you are going to get in the 5 and 7 car sets . It would apear it is .
john

I'm not defending Hornby, but if they are using an external company to do any website updates, these can take a very long time to do, and cost a hell of a lot of money (which we all know Hornby can't be throwing about at the moment).  I wouldn't be surprised if they did, remember Hornby are a big company with Airfix, Scalextric, Humbrol and others under their wing.

 

The company I work for has its website administered externally.  They have a 6 to 8 week turnaround on any updates, plus a substantial charge, both of which still apply if even when the external company fix mistakes they made themselves (charged for the update, and charged for them fixing their mistakes).  It was even worse when we used an overseas web admin!!!!

 

If Hornby administer their own website, then there isn't any excuse to provide correct detail and photographs.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Half-full said:

I'm not defending Hornby, but if they are using an external company to do any website updates, these can take a very long time to do, and cost a hell of a lot of money (which we all know Hornby can't be throwing about at the moment).  I wouldn't be surprised if they did, remember Hornby are a big company with Airfix, Scalextric, Humbrol and others under their wing.

 

The company I work for has its website administered externally.  They have a 6 to 8 week turnaround on any updates, plus a substantial charge, both of which still apply if even when the external company fix mistakes they made themselves (charged for the update, and charged for them fixing their mistakes).  It was even worse when we used an overseas web admin!!!!

 

If Hornby administer their own website, then there isn't any excuse to provide correct detail and photographs.

 

 

Regardless of wether Hornby use an exernal company or not. Hornby provied the material and the content. They would  previewed the website before it went live, after all its there brand nmae on it. Note there website is not just for information but has an e shope as well. Its like shopping on line see a photo of an apple and get orange. regardless of who runs it there is no exceuss for incorrect content on there website. Also another way to look at it. Which is correct item to the part number the photo or the discription? It shows poor customer care.

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9 hours ago, oleander said:

Regardless of wether Hornby use an exernal company or not. Hornby provied the material and the content. They would  previewed the website before it went live, after all its there brand nmae on it. Note there website is not just for information but has an e shope as well. Its like shopping on line see a photo of an apple and get orange. regardless of who runs it there is no exceuss for incorrect content on there website. Also another way to look at it. Which is correct item to the part number the photo or the discription? It shows poor customer care.

Referring to my own personal experience, Hornby may not have had a chance to preview the site, just given a time for it to go 'live', our company certainly doesn't get the chance to preview.

 

They may have provided 'place holder' photos and information in the right order, but the web admin mixed it up, behind the scenes it could be that its getting fixed, and just taking time.  I agree that the lack of/mixed information is annoying to those who are looking to order the right items.

 

Again, not defending, just being open-minded that it may not solely be Hornbys' fault.

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If the power car has the same drive and weight as a Hornby class 71, it should be able to manage a 14 car train on the flat easily. Of course it is nonsense if anyone in Hornby's marketing department truly believes that only (or mainly) people buying a yellow end 5-car set will be seriously interested in running a 14 car train. 

I have gone for the black window surrounds 7 car set and ordered all the extra coaches for that set (and have no intention of buying an extra power car).

Now I suppose I would be happy running it as a 10 car set (6+2+2) which is prototypical. But the way the extra coaches are sold, this is not possible unless I split the pairs and sell off one set of 4 extras seperately (which I'll probably do if I find it really cannot cope with a 14 car train on level track).

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On 14/02/2020 at 13:32, woodenhead said:

The marketing people will be responsible for the website design and content.

 

Given they are the same people who run the Engine Shed where they allowed SK to call the Bulleid shorties as 1930s coaches and describe a shunters truck a shunter in a Taunton BR livery then you know you are not dealing with people with a deep knowledge of the product.

 

Hornby are not talking to scale modellers on their forum and website, they are talking to hobbyists who are less inclined to be interested in the history and more in the idea of the train on their layouts.

 

Scale modellers do their own research so Hornby don't have to.

 

Hi woodenhead

 

Totally agree, and yes I noticed that to on the Engine Shed, and I smiled thinking he's just dropped a bollock there! You would think Hornby in the comfort of the HQ just need to read the comments on here to see what they need to update on there website, and what area's are of important's in a model to take note of, or even getting the information correct before going public on the YouTube Channel... It's an embarrassment for them and bad PR...

 

Few Director's at the top need sacking instead of looking if the share price is ever going to recover, which in the last month since they announcements of 2020 is been down overall, and Down 59% in the last half decade, even though it's gone up by 1.7% in the last 7 days, why that is I don't know and down by 9.2% for the year, not a good company to invest in over the last 15 years. To much in debt to, so they are at the mercy of there lenders to, once they say enough is enough, that will be it for Hornby, is just a matter of time, possibly... although I hope not, personally with so many great brands under their belt.

 

Someone said on the Hornby Announcement thread that there are several Hornby Reps who are on the RMWeb, well if that is the case, do they not read the comments and report back to Hornby HQ there findings... (or are those just classed as fancy Sales Guys and only work on Commission on what they sell on and therefore not interested in passing information on but what they bring home at the end of the week/month) 

 

Regards

Jamie

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9 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

 

Few Director's at the top need sacking instead of looking if the share price is ever going to recover, which in the last month since they announcements of 2020 is been down overall, and Down 59% in the last half decade, even though it's gone up by 1.7% in the last 7 days, why that is I don't know and down by 9.2% for the year, not a good company to invest in over the last 15 years. To much in debt to, so they are at the mercy of there lenders to, once they say enough is enough, that will be it for Hornby, is just a matter of time, possibly... although I hope not, personally with so many great brands under their belt.

 

Hornby isn't a massive conglomerate, it is a small business making trains, there won't be a massive board.

 

The management only changed a couple of years back when Simon Kohler returned to join with the then MD of Oxford to rebuild the Hornby brand.

 

I don't like the website, I don't like the marketing but they are now turning the business around.  The new ideas this year may not be to everyone's tastes but there does appear to be a strategy, Rocket and the APT are interesting punts that also appear to be paying dividends and the policy of making much more of the wide range of Railroad models is compelling to the budget modeller and they are not taking competition lying down with the Prairie, the 91 and the Terrier.

 

Hornby may still be in debt, it's always easy to get there but climbing back out takes time and you need a strategy which is now there.

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Yes I agree with all that.......but

 

Hornby consider themselves 'brand leaders' in model railways, and brand impressions are formed by the information you put out there. Too often their information is inaccurate and/or incomplete. Hornby make, mainly, detailed models for adults, their customers for the main range are, by and large, quite discerning and the details matter when purchasing decisions are being made.

 

Not being able to confirm what is what in their new range until 6 weeks after the launch is pretty poor in my opinion.

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On 13/02/2020 at 14:11, 7APT7 said:

 

 The Older APT-P Sets... had the Yellow Fronted Set was a Train Set, where as the Black Fronted Set was a Train Pack Only... with No Oval Track, Controller or Cardboard Tunnel.

 

The train set was only yellow fronted for the first year of sale, after that, it had the black fronts.

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