Gibbo675 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 1 hour ago, blueeighties said: 21 pages. Sometimes I do wish we could return to the days where a product was released and THEN it could be discussed...... Worse still, almost all of it based upon supposition !?!?! Gibbo. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 According to Ramsey's, the train set, with track, etc. Was only made / available in 1980. Yellow fronts. The Train Pack, no track, etc., Was made / available from 1981 to 1984. Black window fronts. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwich station Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 On 17/02/2020 at 08:46, Sarahagain said: According to Ramsey's, the train set, with track, etc. Was only made / available in 1980. Yellow fronts. The Train Pack, no track, etc., Was made / available from 1981 to 1984. Black window fronts. According to Pat, volume 3 The Story of Rovex. R.543 APT train set was available from 1980 -83. First year with yellow fronts, the remaining years black. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 13 hours ago, sandwich station said: According to Pat, volume 3 The Story of Rovex. R.543 APT train set was available from 1980 -83. First year with yellow fronts, the remaining years black. Hi sandwich station I have only ever seen the Hornby R.543 with the Yellow Front Only. Hornby Catalogues 1980/1981/1982/1983/1984/1985, these years featured the Advanced Passenger Train. Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Hi All Below are the Hornby Catalogues 1980/1981/1982/1983/1984/1985 that the Advanced Passenger Train was advertised in.. Hornby 1980 Catalogue 26th Edition Page 5 Shows the APT (Yellow Fronted) Introducing our latest development.. ..the New and exciting A.P.T. Set.. R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set (370 001 Yellow Fronted) NEW Contents 2x R.702 APT Driving Trailer 2x R.703 APT Van Trailer R.704 APT Power Car (with retractable dummy pantograph) Large oval of 2nd radius track with re-railer R.912 Variable Controller and Power Clip Card Tunnel and Catalogue Track length: 175" (4.4m) Space Needed: 69" x 37" (175 x 94cm) Hornby 1981 Catalogue 27th Edition R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set (Shows Black Fronted ><InterCityAPT, despite advertising R.543 which as the Yellow Fronted)) Page 7 Shows the APT (Black Fronted ><InterCityAPT) Contains Power Car, 2 Driving Trailers, 2 Van Trailers, Oval of 2nd radius Track requiring space 175 x 94 cm (69" x 37"), and Power Controller. Hornby's greatest set has headlights which come on in the direction of travel, bodies which tilt inwards on curves, articulated bogies, full passenger seating, special high speed motor and B.R.'s magnificent livery accurately reproduced down to the different running numbers on the vehicles. Page 41 Shows the APT (Black Fronted ><InterCityAPT) R.794 BR Class 370 Advanced Passenger Train Pack Contains: R.702 and R.706 Driving Trailers R.703 and R.707 Van Trailers R.704 Power Car The whole train measures 140cm, (55") in length and quite breathtaking to watch as it snakes along at high speed with all cars leaning inwards on the curves. Because of the unique bogies and couplings APT vehicles are only supplied as a train set (See Pages 7) Hornby 1982 Catalogue 28th Edition Page 4/5 Pictures of the APT in motion on a layout (Black Fronted) Page 10/11 R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set (370 002 Black Fronted ><InterCityAPT) Contains: Power Car / 2 Driving Trailers / 2 Van Trailers / Oval of 2nd radius Track requiring space 69" x 37" (175 x 94 cm) / Power connecting clip and Mains Power Controller. The power car with electric motor picks up its current from the running rails in the conventional manner. Driving trailers have head lamps which lights up only in the direction of travel and B.R.s ingenious body-tilt mechanism for high speed cornering is reproduced making this a particular fascinating set to operate. A railer track and easy-build cardboard tunnel are included. Page 30/31 R.794 Advanced Passenger Train Pack, BR Class 370 Shows All Five Coaches of the Advanced Passenger Train R.702 Driving Trailers (Sc 48101), R.703 Van Trailers (Sc 48601), R.704 Power Car (Sc 49003), R.707 Van Trailers (Sc 48602), R.706 Driving Trailers (Sc 48102) Showing Black Fronts (Vehicles not available separately) Hornby 1983 Catalogue 29th Edition Page 6/7 R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set (Even though it shows the Black Fronted ><InterCityAPT) Contains: Power Car / 2 Driving Trailers, 2 Van Trailers, Oval of 2nd radius Track requiring space 69" x 37" (175 x 94 cm) Power connecting clip and Mains Power Controller. Page 12 show the side view of the APT in motion. (Black Fronted) Hornby 1984 Catalogue 30th Edition Page 3 Shows the APT (Black Fronted ><InterCityAPT) Page 12 R.794 Advanced Passenger Train Pack, BR Class 370 (Black Fronted) Contains: R.702 and R.706 Driving Trailers, R.703 and R.707 Van Trailers, R.704 Power Car, (vehicles not available separately) Black Fronted Page 13 R.794 Advanced Passenger Train Pack, BR Class 370 (Black Fronted ><InterCityAPT) Purpose: Express passenger. Design: British Railways Model features coach tilt action. Requires a power controller with a minimum output of 1/2 (half) amp. Hornby 1985 Catalogue 31st Edition Page 18 R.794 Advanced Passenger Train Pack, BR Class 370 (Black Fronted) Contains: R.702 and R.706 Driving Trailers, R.703 and R.707 Van Trailers, R.704 Power Car, (vehicles not available separately) Page 19 R.794 Advanced Passenger Train Pack, BR Class 370 (Black Fronted ><InterCityAPT) Purpose: Express passenger. Design: British Railways Model features coach tilt action. Requires a power controller with a minimum output of 1/2 (half) amp. Hornby 1986 Catalogue 32nd Edition No Advertising of the Advanced Passenger Train in the Catalogue. Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Hi All I have noticed that APT-P Coach Running Number 48204 must be available in two variances...!!! As any one else noticed this...? R3970 APT-U Ex-TS (48204 / 977527) which as a Twin Bogie Set at each end of the same coach. whereas the... R40011 Twin Pack as the coach running numbers as 48203 & 48204 as an Articulated Bogie set Is that Correct I wonder...(Hmmm), as I take it... that All the Hornby Twin Packs from... R40011, R40011A, R40012, R40012A, R40013, R40013A, R40014, R40014A I'm taking it that all these will have the Articulated Bogie Sets. The Scenario on your layout can be... Buy the 7-Car Set which as the APT-U Ex-TS (48204 / 977527) as standard as part of the 7-Car Train Pack, then this coach will have the Twin Bogie Sets at each end of the same coach and NOT the Articulated Bogie Sets like the normal APT-P Coaches have, but if you were to buy R40011 which as the running numbers 48203 & 48204 which will have Articulated Bogie Sets... This will enable you run the APT-P as a Test Train OR you could swap the Test Coach for the normal Twin Pack Coach Set and run the APT-P before the Coach 48204 ever got converted and run the APT-P as a Normal Service on your layout as appose to a Test Train Set up... then if you add the other coach number in the Twin Pack Set aka 48203, you could run your APT-P as a 8-Car Set, instead of a 7-Car Set. Which would be interesting to do... depending on whether you want to run your APT-P in the Earlier Years or the Later Years of it's service, thus covering a wider range of the Years that the APT-P ran. This a thought. Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 5 hours ago, 7APT7 said: Hi All I have noticed that APT-P Coach Running Number 48204 must be available in two variances...!!! As any one else noticed this...? R3970 APT-U Ex-TS (48204 / 977527) which as a Twin Bogie Set at each end of the same coach. whereas the... R40011 Twin Pack as the coach running numbers as 48203 & 48204 as an Articulated Bogie set Is that Correct I wonder...(Hmmm), as I take it... that All the Hornby Twin Packs from... R40011, R40011A, R40012, R40012A, R40013, R40013A, R40014, R40014A I'm taking it that all these will have the Articulated Bogie Sets. As far as I can see, the real one started out as an articulated coach & was re-built into a free standing one, therefore Hornby are just re-creating what happened in real life. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APT-P Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Hornby have now added the exact contents of the two train packs to their website including what is required to make a 14 car set from either starting point. Rob 1 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 So if they feel a dummy NDM is suitable for a 14 car black fronted version, why are they selling (& therefore recommending) a powered NDM to expand the 5-car set to 14? It doesn't seem like they have thought that one through properly. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted February 19, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2020 Because five into fourteen doesn't go! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwich station Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 16 hours ago, 7APT7 said: I have only ever seen the Hornby R.543 with the Yellow Front Only. I have a boxed train set with the black fronts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said: As far as I can see, the real one started out as an articulated coach & was re-built into a free standing one, therefore Hornby are just re-creating what happened in real life. Hi Pete the Elaner Yes I agree Pete, I just wanted to make sure I hadn't read it wrong myself... lol It's great they are doing 48204 in both Bogie Types as Prototypical... and an excellent wish for... unexpectedly. Have Hornby missed something for any particular reason, I wonder...! I don't understand why Hornby didn't release the remaining 8 Coach Running Numbers in another (Four) Twin Packs, unless this is a future announcement in Hornby 2021 Catalogue maybe.... Yay and all with the Articulated Bogie Sets just like in the other Twin Packs already announced in R40011+A, R40012+A, R40013 +A and R40014 +A. R40011B, 48205 & 48206 TS R40012B, 48405 & 48406 TRBS R40013B, 48305 & 48306 TU R40014B, 48505 & 48506 TF With a Twin Pack 370 005 & 370 006 (Black Fronted) With a Single Item Pack of 370 007 (Built as a Spare Coach) With a Single Item Pack of 49005 (Powered N-DM) With a Single Item Pack of 49006 (Dummy N-DM) With a Single Item Pack of 48607 TBF (Built as a Spare Coach) If Hornby just produced the above remaining numbers, then every coach formation along with every running number will have been produced and would enable us to run any possibility APT-P Formation... on our own layouts. Three, 14-Car Lengths and all with different Running Numbers... Would be nice to see in the future... (Hornby Take Note...) Regards Jamie 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted February 19, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2020 Good that Hornby have finally seen fit to give us complete clarity at last... A bit of research reveals that they could have picked better numbers for the black fronted set - 370 005 and 006 were used on the initial public service in Dec 1981, and then later in 1984 370 006 and 007 were used exclusively on the unadvertised relief services. 370 001 with the black front was rarely photographed after 1981, but always in test formations when it was. Interestingly 370 004 was not seen in public as far as I can make out after about the middle of 1981 - did it even get a black front? APT - 370004 by David Hancox, on Flickr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 11 minutes ago, stovepipe said: Good that Hornby have finally seen fit to give us complete clarity at last... A bit of research reveals that they could have picked better numbers for the black fronted set - 370 005 and 006 were used on the initial public service in Dec 1981, and then later in 1984 370 006 and 007 were used exclusively on the unadvertised relief services. 370 001 with the black front was rarely photographed after 1981, but always in test formations when it was. Interestingly 370 004 was not seen in public as far as I can make out after about the middle of 1981 - did it even get a black front? APT - 370004 by David Hancox, on Flickr Hi stovepipe I totally agrees on that one, I prefer 370 005 & 370 006 OR 370 006 & 370 007 by choice personally in the Black Fronted variants of the APT-P, neither are available sadly, so I hope it is in the Hornby pipeline for a future release, maybe. (fingers crossed hey) 370 004 I think... when we last brushed passed this issues a few pages ago, I had a looked in all my APT-P Books I have including the Internet Photos that were visible to see the number for Yellow Ends and Black Ends Etc,. I think every number I came across (370 001 to 370 007) for the Full Yellow Ends, but in the Black Fronted variants, ONLY 370 004 was the only APT-P that I cannot find with Black Ends and as you have said, only 370 004 had the Full Yellow End, unless anyone can share a Photo of 370 004 with Black Ends, then, yes... 370 004 was only ever in Yellow Ends from what I can see to. Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, sandwich station said: I have a boxed train set with the black fronts. Yes, I bought the Hornby R543 Advanced Passenger Train Set with Black Fronted off eBay and when I questioned him before hand, he said he bought it originally with Yellow Ends from the shop back in 1982 he said, it was the Yellow Ends version and he liked most over the Black Ends version APT, and he wasn't really in to keeping the box any longer and wanted to sell it as a Full train Set, so he said I have put two Black Front End Cars in there place as he had from the Hornby R794 APT Train Pack, he liked the Yellow Ends over the Black Ends, and said I'm selling it as original box with track, Tunnel and controller, the only thing he had swapped was that he as kept his original Yellow Ends and replaced them with Black Ends, which was a bonus as it was Black Ends I was after and I had 6 full Yellow Ends, which enabled me to swap it back to it's original box condition with Yellow Ends, just as it was when the guy would have bought it back in 1982. What Hornby Price Lists say... Hornby R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set had the Yellow Front Ends, with Track, Tunnel and Controller. Hornby R.794 Advanced Passenger Train Pack had the Black Front Ends, 5-Car Set ONLY. Hornby 1980 Price List (Marked as 'NEW' & Available 'Autumn') 2nd January 1980 Price List, R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set (NEW) £57.95 (Autumn) 25th February 1980 Price List, R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set (NEW) £74.95 (Autumn) 8th May 1980 Price List, R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set (NEW) £74.95 (Autumn) 1st September 1980 Price List, R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set (NEW) £74.95 (Autumn) Hornby 1981 Price List (Looses the Words 'NEW' & 'Autumn' For R.543) 5th January 1981 Price List, R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set £74.95 5th January 1981 Price List, R.794 A.P.T. Pack £52.75 (Spring) Hornby 1982 Price List (Looses 'Spring' For R.794) 18th January 1982 Price List, R.543 Advanced Passenger Train Set* £79.95 18th January 1982 Price List, R.794 A.P.T. Pack £57.50 * Complete with Mains Power Controller Hornby 1983 Price List 1st February 1983 Price List, R.543 APT Set £79.99 1st February 1983 Price List, R.794 APT Pack £59.99 Hornby 1984 Price List (Looses R.543 from the Price List) 1st February 1984 Price List, R.794 APT Pack £59.99 Hornby 1985 Price List (Looses both R.543 & R.794 from the Price List) Interesting to see the Newly Released (2020) 'Smokey Joe' makes it's debut 1st March 1985 Price List, R.782 Smokey Joe £9.99 Interesting to see the Newly Released (2020) 'Smokey Joe' January 2020 Price List R3822, 56025 'Smokey Joe', Centenary Year Limited Edition - 1983 £39.99 January 2020 Price List R3064, RailRoad, BR, Class 264 'Pug', 0-4-0ST, 56025 'Smokey Joe', - Era 4/5 £40.99 Sorry, I got side tracked seeing the 'Smokey Joe' as I did with the 'Zero 1'. which is also interesting as It's the first mention of it in the 1985 Price List, yet Hornby on there 2020 Price List print it as 1983... (Sorry for that side track.... no pun intended) lol Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) Hi All Thought putting this list together may be of interest. Just to compare hoe the Real Life APT-P ran in 1980, 1981 and 1983 according to the stated Books (Verses) Hornby's 2020 Available to Order... Seem, the 1980 APT-P Sets is the closest to running Prototypical 370 003 (can run in Full Prototypical) & 370 004 Yellow Ends, (Using R3873 5-Car Set) just missing the TU 48305 as a Prototypical but still out of the Full 14-Car Set, only the TU 48305 let's the side down. Come on Hornby... RELEASE the other remaining (Four) Twin Packs (Ending in 05's & 06's). AND / OR ... Release another 5-Car Set (R3873A...!?! with Black Front Ends) 370 005 (48105) & 370 006 (48106) with TBF 48605 & TBF 48606 with N-DM 49005... If Hornby Released the above... Then, the 1980 (Book) APT-P Set with 370 006 can run as a Full Prototypical and... also the 1981/83 (Book) APT-P Set with 370 005 can also run as a Full Prototypical. In the words of 'DEL BOY'... Lovely Jubbly... You know it makes sense... (haha) Regards Jamie Edited February 20, 2020 by 7APT7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel_H Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 1 hour ago, 7APT7 said: Hi All Thought putting this list together may be of interest. Just to compare hoe the Real Life APT-P ran in 1980, 1981 and 1983 according to the stated Books (Verses) Hornby's 2020 Available to Order... Seem, the 1980 APT-P Sets is the closest to running Prototypical 370 003 (can run in Full Prototypical) & 370 004 Yellow Ends, (Using R3873 5-Car Set) just missing the TU 48305 as a Prototypical but still out of the Full 14-Car Set, only the TU 48305 let's the side down. Come on Hornby... RELEASE the other remaining (Four) Twin Packs (Ending in 05's & 06's). AND / OR ... Release another 5-Car Set (R3873A...!?! with Black Front Ends) 370 005 (48105) & 370 006 (48106) with TBF 48605 & TBF 48606 with N-DM 49005... If Hornby Released the above... Then, the 1980 (Book) APT-P Set with 370 006 can run as a Full Prototypical and... also the 1981/83 (Book) APT-P Set with 370 005 can also run as a Full Prototypical. In the words of 'DEL BOY'... Lovely Jubbly... You know it makes sense... (haha) Regards Jamie Nice, but the slight snag might be that this is what the book says, but not what actually ran? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel_H Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 On 16/02/2020 at 15:14, blueeighties said: 21 pages. Sometimes I do wish we could return to the days where a product was released and THEN it could be discussed...... The way it seems to be is that after the product is released many pages on this forum almost immediately run out of steam! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel_H Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 On 19/02/2020 at 16:25, APT-P said: Hornby have now added the exact contents of the two train packs to their website including what is required to make a 14 car set from either starting point. Rob Good to see this diagram on the Hornby site. Clearly, someone is listening, somewhere by the sea! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 11 minutes ago, Mel_H said: Nice, but the slight snag might be that this is what the book says, but not what actually ran? Hi Mel_H Thanks for the insight Mel_H... I'd be interested to see what did actually run over those years, if the book is indeed incorrect... and the running numbers within each rake, while we can name some 14-Car Sets and every running number on a particulate rakes from certain published information. What about the running numbers of the other Sets...? What numbers were the other APT-P Rakes and there running numbers... I'd be interested to know more, if you can... I understand some APT Coaches may have been swapped around fairly regularly or remains out of service while maintenance etc gets carried out or even internally modified, to get the Tilt mechanism correct etc,. Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 Updated my List... Showing the Hornby Formation vs APT-P Formations according to 1980 / 1981 & 1983. Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleander Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 On 19/02/2020 at 17:48, Pete the Elaner said: So if they feel a dummy NDM is suitable for a 14 car black fronted version, why are they selling (& therefore recommending) a powered NDM to expand the 5-car set to 14? It doesn't seem like they have thought that one through properly. Hi Pete I thought the same. Regardless weather its a black or yellow front end. They will require a minuim amout of pushing power for a 14 car set. I would be nice for Hornby to say. How many moterised power cars are required for a 14 car formation, one or two. I have noticed on there web site you can only get the un moterised power car in the 7 car set. So for Hornby to make the digram for the 5 car set they would have had to use a second moterised power as they dont sell the unmoterised unit on its own. Which then begs the question. Should they have sold the single power car unmoterised or put in a second moterised power car in the 7 car set. Ok it will up the price a bit but not that much . John 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 7APT7 Sorry to do this but after all your hard work tracking down which coach numbers are in each set, it seems you missed one This pic is from Hornby's site It shows 370 007 leading a train with 6 coaches, at least 1NDM & who knows? Also the colour under the nose looks to be the same white as the stripe between the red & dark grey John 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Hi Folks, All this talk of particular numbers and particular set formations does seem rather academic to me. In the real world of railway operation which is nothing more than a mechanical system, should a component or coach be defective it is removed from service and either repaired or replaced. When in-situ repairs may not be effective then the particular coach may be withdrawn and substituted for another coach or the set may be reduced. If removed to effect repair a coach would not necessarily be placed back exactly from where it came, it may go back into the same set in either the same position or in a different position. There is always the possibility that if a substitution occurs then the substituted coach is left where it is and the formally defective coach is placed elsewhere once repaired. The books containing stock numbers are only correct in that the original sets and their numbers in the way that things were planned to be are listed and ordered, but failures and damage in service will soon mix up all of what is written on paper. The whole point of a stock numbering system is so that operators and engineers know which vehicles are which, which vehicles are rostered for services scheduled, what mileages they have run, when examinations are due and what repairs have been undertaken. From an operational point of view the railway in general is not bothered what numbers are carried or if the order matches what is written on a stock list, more that what ever is in service is safe and reliable and matches the maintenance records and service roster . There is a good chance that any photograph found may illustrate a set formation that may have only run for that day and not ever again in that order and conversely there may have been set formations that lasted some months of which no published photographs are extant, go figure. Gibbo. 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted February 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2020 Yes I totally get that applies for many types of stock. With the APT-P however the Mk3 tilt package wasn't implemented across all vehicles at once, and then only after the 25,000 mileage accumulation phase had been completed. So for a long period around late 1980 into 1981, it seems a stable set did run together, presumably because it had to. With the APT-P being a fixed articulated set, I don't believe changes were made that frequently. Certain cars were allocated to certain test programmes, fitted with certain equipment and modifications which then ran over several weeks/months before a new phase was entered which initiated a change around. Whilst DTSs and NDMs were often recorded, there are very few full formation records out there. On the one occasion I saw a full 14-car set, it had cars from all of the 6 full sets, so I definitely will not be getting hung up on having matching numbers sets. Given the choice I would prefer Hornby to make DTS 370 005/6/7 as they were the first it seems to receive the Mk3 tilt package. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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