Hornby APT (2020 tooling)

[johny retro]

I knew i'd read somewhere that they didn't tilt. Thanks Pete.

Edited May 14, 2020 by johny retro
Correction

[Pete the Elaner]

19 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

I must admit not to having the knowledge personally, but a number of websites including Wikipedia state that: ... the patents for the APT's tilt system were sold to Fiat Ferroviaria ...  

 

It completely contradicts what Kit Spackman says in his talks.

For anyone who has not met him, Kit (Mr Tilt) was tilt engineer on the APT-E, so has a lot of inside knowledge & was aware of what other companies such as Fiat were doing at the time.

 

Choose who you want to believe. Wikipedia is updated by ??? to the best of their knowledge, but 'facts' on this forum, may not always be correct.

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

It completely contradicts what Kit Spackman says in his talks.

For anyone who has not met him, Kit (Mr Tilt) was tilt engineer on the APT-E, so has a lot of inside knowledge & was aware of what other companies such as Fiat were doing at the time.

 

Choose who you want to believe. Wikipedia is updated by ??? to the best of their knowledge, but 'facts' on this forum, may not always be correct.

Patents can be bought for knowledge, doesn't mean they have to use them in full, part or at all.

 

Perhaps Fiat wanted certain bits of the technology, perhaps they wanted compare with their own to prove their own theories or perhaps it was to keep in their back pocket in case their own system was deficient.

[metropolitan cammell]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Patents can be bought for knowledge, doesn't mean they have to use them in full, part or at all.

 

Perhaps Fiat wanted certain bits of the technology, perhaps they wanted compare with their own to prove their own theories or perhaps it was to keep in their back pocket in case their own system was deficient.

Or to stop anyone else using the technology.

[BernardTPM]

APT tilted according to the track and didn't need the trackside transponders the current tilting trains use.

[APT-P]

On 14/05/2020 at 14:00, Pete the Elaner said:

Kit (Mr Tilt) was tilt engineer on the APT-E

Incase you have not heard Kit's talk the "short" 1½ hour version can be found here

 

http://www.apt-p.com/KitSpackmanAPTFADS.htm

 

The 2 hour version here on Paul's site

 

http://www.apt-e.org/kit/kit.htm

 

And one just on APT Tilt Systems here

 

http://www.apt-p.com/KitSpackmanNDROK.htm

 

Rob

Edited May 16, 2020 by APT-P
Added link to 2 hour version on the APT-E site

[APT-P]

On 13/05/2020 at 17:48, Dixie Dean said:

This is a diagram of a Fiat tilting train

 

Below is the APT-P pantograph anti-tilt arrangement.

Edited May 16, 2020 by APT-P

[Dagworth]

IIRC Kit had to advise the Italians that their original design of tilt gear would have gone out of loading gauge. Kit is a member here isn’t he? 
 

Andi

[Dagworth]

On 14/05/2020 at 15:57, BernardTPM said:

APT tilted according to the track and didn't need the trackside transponders the current tilting trains use.

APT tilted due to accelerometers, leading to the odd situation that if it was stopped on a canted curve it would stand vertical against the cant of the track 

 

Andi

[BernardTPM]

Not really odd, I'd say, but perfectly logical. I was in a train once, coming back from Carnforth (must have been around 1979/80) where someone's big enamelled metal sign they'd bought, propped in the gangway, fell over with a big clang. I thought to myself at the time "that wouldn't happen on APT".

[Dixie Dean]

Paul from APT-E says re: APT-P 

 

"Yes, the powercars tilted, they did right to the very end, although they had worked out that they really didnt need to do this to keep the dynamics of the train stable.

 

Nothing was sold to Fiat, but BR had a program so shared data, so APT tech was handed to others. Also when BR required the design of the class 91, they have over all the technical data to whoever to help with the new design, as BR did not design the class 91 themselves.  GEC won the contract for the powercars."

[Pete the Elaner]

6 hours ago, Dagworth said:

IIRC Kit had to advise the Italians that their original design of tilt gear would have gone out of loading gauge. Kit is a member here isn’t he? 
 

Andi

 

Yes, His username is Mr Tilt

[mow]

Engine Shed update on APT.

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/dining-mk1rb-testing-advanced-passenger-train

[JSpencer]

I smiled at this statement:

Reference to photographs of APT-P sets also reveal 6-car, 7-car, 8-car, 10-car and 12-car sets during testing and passenger service, made up from various vehicles (as illustrated by the 2+8 formation that derailed on April 18, 1980, which comprised vehicles from five of the sets!) and this has had a direct bearing on the way that the additional vehicles have been offered in the range this year.

 

Some of the additional vehicles are flexible, but if you are doing a 10 car 2+8 formation then you end up with 4 extra coaches for the 2 car set that you do not need.

[Colin_McLeod]

1 hour ago, mow said:

Engine Shed update on APT.

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/dining-mk1rb-testing-advanced-passenger-train

 

That's a refreshingly professional and polished update presentation for the progress on the APT-P.

[PaulCheffus]

On 13/05/2020 at 18:31, Dixie Dean said:

 

I must admit not to having the knowledge personally, but a number of websites including Wikipedia state that: ... the patents for the APT's tilt system were sold to Fiat Ferroviaria ...  

Hi

 

Not everything on the internet is true and that is especially true of Wikipedia as anyone can edit it. I would want to see the original source material for that statement before taking any notice.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Dixie Dean]

On 22/05/2020 at 16:05, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

Not everything on the internet is true and that is especially true of Wikipedia as anyone can edit it. I would want to see the original source material for that statement before taking any notice.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

I refer you back to my post on Monday at 13:25 which superseded that post.

[boxbrownie]

I know not strictly relevant to the Hornby model but I am presently upgrading my old APT set, already remotored but was hoping for some detail photos of the roof of the power car to show the high voltage equipment in more detail and more importantly the switching bits that Hornby didn't model the first time around.

 

Searches on the interweb has proved fruitless so far.

 

[Dixie Dean]

7 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I know not strictly relevant to the Hornby model but I am presently upgrading my old APT set, already remotored but was hoping for some detail photos of the roof of the power car to show the high voltage equipment in more detail and more importantly the switching bits that Hornby didn't model the first time around.

 

Searches on the interweb has proved fruitless so far.

 

 

 

Is this useful?

[Dixie Dean]

Also found this, but poor resolution:

 

 

Both appear to indicate little other than insulators and wiring on the roof.

[Dixie Dean]

And this:

 

 

Should give you something to go on.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Dixie Dean

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

 

Is this useful?

Much better than I have found so far, thank you.......most interested in the HT switching insulators which I can just about see there, now to work out how to model them.......

[boxbrownie]

What is interesting from that cutaway drawing is the power car was obviously originally designed for two pantographs as you can definitely see the voids in the roof at both ends were the pantographs levelling system would be.

[Dixie Dean]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

What is interesting from that cutaway drawing is the power car was obviously originally designed for two pantographs as you can definitely see the voids in the roof at both ends were the pantographs levelling system would be.

 

Yes, and those were modelled on the original as well as black voids.  I've been trying to work out some way of modelling the original pantograph holding frame, but due to the difficult in obtaining a decent BWHS pantograph I haven't yet got around to doing that.  I did get a spare new class 87 pantograph from Hornby but decided to use it on my Pendolino instead.  Both the Pendolino and the APT required different mounting frames, but I found it easier to adapt the Pendolino one to take the class 87 arms rather than trying to make a new frame for the APT on to which to fit the arms.  It may be that Hornby will sell the new APT pantograph and frame as parts, in which case I will try to get one of them to fit my old APT.  I will probably get a new APT as well.

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

Yes, and those were modelled on the original as well as black voids.  I've been trying to work out some way of modelling the original pantograph holding frame, but due to the difficult in obtaining a decent BWHS pantograph I haven't yet got around to doing that.  I did get a spare new class 87 pantograph from Hornby but decided to use it on my Pendolino instead.  Both the Pendolino and the APT required different mounting frames, but I found it easier to adapt the Pendolino one to take the class 87 arms rather than trying to make a new frame for the APT on to which to fit the arms.  It may be that Hornby will sell the new APT pantograph and frame as parts, in which case I will try to get one of them to fit my old APT.  I will probably get a new APT as well.

I have ordered a set of OHLE insulators, a switching unit and a pantograph seating frame from Sommerfeldt today, hopefully I’ll be able to cobble something together to make the HT equipment look a bit better, oh yes and a PIKO pantograph from Peterspares......just in case.