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Hornby APT (2020 tooling)


PaulRhB
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I'm wondering if they represent the alcohol barrels used to ply the journalists, by BRs publicity dept on the inaugural run. Allegedly they drunk the train dry, then complained of sickness on the curves. I'm sure I can see Watneys Red Barrel and Dewars  printed.

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This is quite a shame though. This is one of Hornbys flagship models and has a price to match. Yet they are stuck in the Stone Age when it comes to electronics. Even Bachmann units from 10/11 years ago were more advanced than this. I’d argue the Hornby VEP, despite all its failures managed to have inter car connection years ago. It’s truly a shame, even as a DC user it looks poor. This with the added wait, price rise and fear of quality from Hornby is really sad. If they can’t be bothered to go the extra mile on a flagship legacy model, what will they do on others. Rant over, it will be nice to see a well detailed set on peoples layouts at last though. Just a shame it’s not as good as it could’ve been. Just think of a western Pullman Vs this, light years apart…

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10 hours ago, Jeremy Davison said:

Just a thought, maybe it was designed for a smaller better performance capacitor, but due to the current chip shortages, they are not available, so they fitted the larger available ones to keep delivery dates? 

Maybe I'm being generous?

 

Cheers

Jeremy 

Quite possibly, not that familiar with the size of surface mount capacitors, but it could be that this was the original design, scuppered by supply issues... 

 

It's certainly not mounted how I would have designed such a component being a radial device, on its side. If this was the original design I would have expected an axial capacitor. 

 

Or its a bodge to get round the flickering that was not considered early enough to do a better design. Are there pads on the pcb for the cap, or is it just soldered to pcb tracks? 

Edited by RedgateModels
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13 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

Now I dont design model trains, but what kind of moron would have thought "Now where can I put a dirty great big capacitor for the lights. No ... not in the toilet space or between the bogies in the underframe, lets put it right by a clear window and visible from the outside.".

 

Whoever did should immediately step away from the CAD designs because they're clearly too stupid to create them.

 

The thought process was more likely……”whoops we can really see that capacitor, oh well we are Hornby they’ll still buy as many as we can make”. :lol:

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Don't recall seeing visible capacitors on the set running on Pete W's layout. I must admit, I wasn't looking for them specifically, but maybe there was an alteration made between that preproduction example and the mass production examples...

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11 minutes ago, VXDH92 said:

Don't recall seeing visible capacitors on the set running on Pete W's layout. I must admit, I wasn't looking for them specifically, but maybe there was an alteration made between that preproduction example and the mass production examples...

It may have been there (or not) but it’s one of the things that once you see it you cannot un-see it :wacko:

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Has it been shown which of the DTS and the TBF have the bogie attached? I’m guessing it will be the TBF so that the train is assembled from the NDM outwards, can anyone confirm?

 

Andi 

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22 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

And here are the lights in action (the e300 trailer and tractor are just there to help the thing set up straight)

20211016_175343.jpg.c12939aa6fae287e2a6163c0920fff58.jpg20211016_175404.jpg.bfb98174b697d8488532851e79f660b9.jpg20211016_175507.jpg.abdf40e747b009bdf625232b6db9d696.jpg20211016_175520.jpg.c0fffb9626ca0dd0e8544aef4e309ec6.jpg

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Looking at the service sheet for the DTS, the drawing of the lightbar shows the capacitor mounted to the light-bar circuit-board directly.

If it's a standard part that might explain why it "couldn't" be positioned elsewhere. Moving it might also require the use of a soldering iron...

It probably can't be seen in the DTS if it sits in the auxiliary machinery space, and if it sits in the guards compartment of the TBF it might not be seen there either.

Wasn't the model on Waterman's layout a five car? In which case no TF, TS or TRFB.

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21 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

TRBS Capacitor 
20211017_000107.jpg.903ea364a8e4a8b34976972b3adf2072.jpg20211017_000122.jpg.19395b738070bbbe36872fcb9422345a.jpg

 

Is it April 1st yet.....?

 

Another sign that Hornby don't seem to care about the smaller details (particularly for the D&E market)  and think that people will buy it just because it's Hornby.

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Something to note regarding the ball joint on the bogie, when coupling the coaches, there is no 'click' when doing so, meaning the whole train is held together by gravity alone. That kind of worries me since my layout plan includes a gradient and i fear the coaches my decouple due to it

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2 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

Something to note regarding the ball joint on the bogie, when coupling the coaches, there is no 'click' when doing so, meaning the whole train is held together by gravity alone. That kind of worries me since my layout plan includes a gradient and i fear the coaches my decouple due to it

Rightly or wrongly, I'm increasingly concerned the design has been rushed to coincide with Hornby's centenary with design resources spread thin across numerous major projects e.g. Rocket retool / Dublo reintroduction etc. If I'm correct it starts to make we wonder what other corners have possibly been cut.

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3 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

Something to note regarding the ball joint on the bogie, when coupling the coaches, there is no 'click' when doing so, meaning the whole train is held together by gravity alone. That kind of worries me since my layout plan includes a gradient and i fear the coaches my decouple due to it

Do the coaches pull apart easily ie very little resistance when coupled together?

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22 hours ago, rembrow said:

I'm wondering if they represent the alcohol barrels used to ply the journalists, by BRs publicity dept on the inaugural run. Allegedly they drunk the train dry, then complained of sickness on the curves. I'm sure I can see Watneys Red Barrel and Dewars  printed.

 

Not quite, the publicity booze-up was in the Central Station Hotel the night before. I stayed there too, but more soberly, and the noise from the bar went on well into the small hours!

 

I'm not at all sure if there was any beer available on board the train on the inaugural run actually, and the media were moving up and down the train much of the time asking the passengers how they liked it.

 

The 'tilt sickness' amongst the media started occurring around Abington on the run, around the same time that it became light enough to actually see the horizon going up and down as the train tilted. Until then it was almost impossible to realise that it was tilting at all, so good was the control system by then. (Me biased, of course not....:D)

 

Edited by Mr_Tilt
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39 minutes ago, Markwj said:

Do the coaches pull apart easily ie very little resistance when coupled together?

 

For the articulated connections, the end of the coach without the captive bogie has a little hole that fits over a spigot on the adjoining coach's bogie -- so they're uncoupled by lifting off rather than being pulled apart, unlike the original model. Can't speak for the TBF-to-NDM coupling as I've only got the NDM so far, that looks like a pull-apart coupling but couldn't tell you how much force was needed.

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21 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

The thought process was more likely……”whoops we can really see that capacitor, oh well we are Hornby they’ll still buy as many as we can make”. :lol:

 

Personally, I'm buying it because it's an APT - I don't care whose name is on the box.

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My pair of buffet cars arrived this morning.

 

First impressions are that, capacitors aside, they look really nice. You can't really see the capacitors through the windows on the TRBSs due due to the tinted windows but, and it's a pretty massive "but", I've not powered them up and seen them with the lights on yet. I would imagine the capacitors will stand out much more visibly then.

 

Such a shame. I've been really looking forward to these since they were announced and it's disappointing that they didn't find a better way of arranging the capacitors. :(

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1 hour ago, Mr_Tilt said:

The 'tilt sickness' amongst the media started occurring around Abington on the run, around the same time that it became light enough to actually see the horizon going up and down as the train tilted. Until then it was almost impossible to realise that it was tilting at all, so good was the control system by then. (Me biased, of course not....:D)

 

 

HI there,

 

Very interesting.  My understanding was that the nausea was caused by conflicting signals in the brain - eyes telling the passenger they're tilting, inner ear saying they aren't - because the tilt was 'too good' and exactly neutralised the effect of the curve.  Later designs took account of this and reduced the tilt just enough to ensure passengers' eyes and ears agreed!

 

I am sure the journalists of the day did enjoy BR's hospitality but blaming the train's failure on one run, and one group of reporters, is just lazy and fails to account for the political climate of the time and its impact on state-owned operators.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

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28 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

Very interesting.  My understanding was that the nausea was caused by conflicting signals in the brain - eyes telling the passenger they're tilting, inner ear saying they aren't - because the tilt was 'too good' and exactly neutralised the effect of the curve.  Later designs took account of this and reduced the tilt just enough to ensure passengers' eyes and ears agreed!

That's exactly it. It's not (usually) a problem in aeroplanes because the roll rate is lower than it is on a tilting train and you're not generally rolling this way then the other way then back again. Except when it's turbulent and then you're being bounced around a bit anyway. It's interesting (and very useful for simulator manufacturers) that as long as you get some sensation of movement to go with seeing the movement, and as long as the feeling and seeing are synchronised, the amount of movement felt doesn't have to match the amount of movement seen. (Simulator visuals leading or lagging the movement even by a fraction of a second are a recipe for technicolour yawns!)

 

Back in my gliding days I remember one flight with a very experienced cross-country pilot who kept the glider perfectly coordinated (no skid/slip so no lateral force) and so you didn't feel any rolling -- but you saw it, just like with P- and E- trains. After an hour or so of aggressive thermalling I felt a bit queasy, but realised the best thing to do was close my eyes and lean my head against the headrest for a few minutes, and my brain would think we were travelling in a straight line. 10 minutes later I was fine.

 

As for lazy reporters, clearly they're not a new thing!

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49 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

 

I am sure the journalists of the day did enjoy BR's hospitality but blaming the train's failure on one run, and one group of reporters, is just lazy and fails to account for the political climate of the time and its impact on state-owned operators.

 

 

Was it just the 1 run or was this something which was resolved after its initial period in service? I was initially surprised that this effect was not observed in the APT-E, but maybe this was because it was usually occupied by technical staff who had acclimatised to the effect?

 

I agree that judging the APT by an effect which was resolved before its re-introduction into service is lazy reporting. Once the stories are out there, it is difficult to convince the general public that they are inaccurate & it was a shame to throw away so much ground-breaking hard work because of such reports.

Some things don't change & we still see bad media today, like the reports still claiming that "HS2 is a hugely expensive project just to cut 10 minutes off the journey time from London to Birmingham". Anyone with the smallest understanding of Britain's railways knows this is inaccurate, but much of the country believes it because they don't know any better & they are unwilling to listen to why you cannot just throw 4 more trains per hour on an already overcrowded railway line.

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First pair of coaches arrived today. They look very nice indeed. I’m not too worried about the capacitors… an easily solvable problem using the ‘m’ word and much easier to correct than a shape problem (if it bothers you).

 

I couldn’t wait to place them on track so here they are on one of Whatley’s fiddle yard boards. I couldn’t think of a more fitting way to support them than by using vehicles from the original 1980s set. They are just sitting in place on the shared bogies in the photos.

 

Still a big surprise to me that Hornby released the coaches before the sets. Hopefully not too long to wait now though…

 

Guy

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1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Was it just the 1 run or was this something which was resolved after its initial period in service? I was initially surprised that this effect was not observed in the APT-E, but maybe this was because it was usually occupied by technical staff who had acclimatised to the effect?

 

I agree that judging the APT by an effect which was resolved before its re-introduction into service is lazy reporting. Once the stories are out there, it is difficult to convince the general public that they are inaccurate & it was a shame to throw away so much ground-breaking hard work because of such reports.

Some things don't change & we still see bad media today, like the reports still claiming that "HS2 is a hugely expensive project just to cut 10 minutes off the journey time from London to Birmingham". Anyone with the smallest understanding of Britain's railways knows this is inaccurate, but much of the country believes it because they don't know any better & they are unwilling to listen to why you cannot just throw 4 more trains per hour on an already overcrowded railway line.


I think Ben’s point is slightly different, I don’t think he was saying it was ‘bad media’ (although I take your point about hs2).

 

I read it to mean that blaming the failure on the media alone is what is lazy. The trains failure might have involved the media but they weren’t the only cause (eg political situation etc).

 

Guy

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