RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted October 20, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, lyneux said: Better put that spare NDM on eBay now then @Roy Langridge? Guy Nah, will wait until sold out and cover my postage costs as well Edit: and like @E100 I am very sceptical that it has two powered NDMs although, to be fair to Hornby, they did say that when they had running EPs they would see what was needed, 1 or 2 powered. Roy Edited October 20, 2021 by Roy Langridge 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyneux Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 If you watch the video closely of the 14 car set that was released earlier in the year, you can hear that both NDMs are powered (based on the noise of two motors going past). Of course, I think these EPs were unpainted in the video so no telling whether this will be continued in the sets. As others have pointed out, it might be simpler to produce a single vehicle than both powered and unpowered. I'm thinking particularly about the Rapido APT-E or the Realtrack 156 where vehicles were both powered as it was actually cheaper than producing powered and non powered versions. Guy 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanN91 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 I've looked at my 4 coach packs ( for the 7 car set) and I think they all look stunning. I might be in a minority here yes the capacitors are noticeable but in the flesh I don't think they look as bad as they do on the photos etc. I'm very pleased with them. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley West Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, RyanN91 said: I've looked at my 4 coach packs ( for the 7 car set) and I think they all look stunning. I might be in a minority here yes the capacitors are noticeable but in the flesh I don't think they look as bad as they do on the photos etc. I'm very pleased with them. Glad to hear you're pleased with them. I must admit I have been completely underwhelmed by the photos of the capacitors and light bleed (and I say that having fitted many of my coaches with both capacitors and light bars without any visual intrusion). I can't believe Hornby had no option but to sign off that design with an enormous and highly visible capacitor blocking one window. They had the same slap-dash "it'll do" approach to the under-length lights they fitted to their Mk 3s. They just do not seem to devote the same level of care and attention to "modern" stock that they give to steam era locos and coaches. I was getting to the point where I was considering (still am to some extent) cancelling my order for what, for me, is a marginal and expensive luxury purchase. The thought of not easily being able to open them up to rectify the issue and fit passengers doesn't help either. Still having one of the original Hornby APTs from the 70s though, I really do not want to cancel my order, as I never thought I would see one built to modern standards and I remember seeing the prototype in action, albeit only briefly. My overall impression from what I have seen of it so far is that it's an impressive model spoilt for the proverbial ha'penny-worth of tar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted October 20, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2021 27 minutes ago, Waverley West said: Glad to hear you're pleased with them. I must admit I have been completely underwhelmed by the photos of the capacitors and light bleed (and I say that having fitted many of my coaches with both capacitors and light bars without any visual intrusion). I can't believe Hornby had no option but to sign off that design with an enormous and highly visible capacitor blocking one window. They had the same slap-dash "it'll do" approach to the under-length lights they fitted to their Mk 3s. They just do not seem to devote the same level of care and attention to "modern" stock that they give to steam era locos and coaches. I was getting to the point where I was considering (still am to some extent) cancelling my order for what, for me, is a marginal and expensive luxury purchase. The thought of not easily being able to open them up to rectify the issue and fit passengers doesn't help either. Still having one of the original Hornby APTs from the 70s though, I really do not want to cancel my order, as I never thought I would see one built to modern standards and I remember seeing the prototype in action, albeit only briefly. My overall impression from what I have seen of it so far is that it's an impressive model spoilt for the proverbial ha'penny-worth of tar. Out of interest, what size capacitor do you normally fit? The APT has 1000uf, which seems quite large to stop flickering. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley West Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Although I initially used to use large capacitors (like the ones Hornby are using) placed in the toilet/vestibule of stock, I now tend to use ESU's power packs: https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/esu/led-lighting-strip-powerpack They are 0.22F (220uf) and I've never seen any flicker with them whatsoever, even with dirty coach wheels, So, yes, that would suggest Hornby's 1000uF is over the top. Capacitors like the ones Hornby is using will cost a few pence, while the ESU power packs are a few quid each (when not bought commercially anyway). Like I say, a ha'penny-worth of tar on a train costing hundreds of pounds. I find it hard to believe even the large capacitors that Hornby are using can't be concealed in the vestibule or toilet area though. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 38 minutes ago, Waverley West said: Glad to hear you're pleased with them. I must admit I have been completely underwhelmed by the photos of the capacitors and light bleed (and I say that having fitted many of my coaches with both capacitors and light bars without any visual intrusion). I can't believe Hornby had no option but to sign off that design with an enormous and highly visible capacitor blocking one window. They had the same slap-dash "it'll do" approach to the under-length lights they fitted to their Mk 3s. They just do not seem to devote the same level of care and attention to "modern" stock that they give to steam era locos and coaches. I was getting to the point where I was considering (still am to some extent) cancelling my order for what, for me, is a marginal and expensive luxury purchase. The thought of not easily being able to open them up to rectify the issue and fit passengers doesn't help either. Still having one of the original Hornby APTs from the 70s though, I really do not want to cancel my order, as I never thought I would see one built to modern standards and I remember seeing the prototype in action, albeit only briefly. My overall impression from what I have seen of it so far is that it's an impressive model spoilt for the proverbial ha'penny-worth of tar. You are not alone in considering this purchase as something of a white elephant. I too tinkered with cancelling the order as well but my coach set is on the way (I really only wanted four vehicles to do just one side to do a 10 car APT which is the max my layout will reasonably take) and the full set 14 cars will make the longest train I have (unless I do a cement train mixing every PCA I ever brought). The lighting units are for me a bonus considering they were initially announced without them. As for getting the coaches apart, someone, sooner or later will do a user guide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley West Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, JSpencer said: The lighting units are for me a bonus considering they were initially announced without them. As for getting the coaches apart, someone, sooner or later will do a user guide. Yes, agreed, the lighting units are a bonus, as I would have wanted to fit some anyway. It's just the thought of having to try and move the existing capacitor or fit a new one in each of the coaches, all for the sake of a bit more care and attention from Hornby. And yes, I'm sure someone will come up with a user guide sooner or later, but experiences so far seem to suggest it isn't easy, meaning that damage could be a possibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodnok Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 28 minutes ago, Waverley West said: They are 0.22F (220uf) and I've never seen any flicker with them whatsoever, even with dirty coach wheels, So, yes, that would suggest Hornby's 1000uF is over the top. 0.22F isn't 220uF, it's 220mF. That's 220 times the capacity of Hornby's chosen 1000uF electrolytic. I haven't heard from my retailer yet, but when my order arrives, I will definitely be looking into moving these capacitors to a less visible location. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley West Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Bloodnok said: 0.22F isn't 220uF, it's 220mF. That's 220 times the capacity of Hornby's chosen 1000uF electrolytic. Yes, of course! ...and a fraction of the size of Hornby's too. I used to use 1000uF capacitors just like Hornby's. Never failed to hide them in the vestibule/toilet area though. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 41 minutes ago, JSpencer said: You are not alone in considering this purchase as something of a white elephant. I too tinkered with cancelling the order as well but my coach set is on the way (I really only wanted four vehicles to do just one side to do a 10 car APT which is the max my layout will reasonably take) and the full set 14 cars will make the longest train I have (unless I do a cement train mixing every PCA I ever brought). The lighting units are for me a bonus considering they were initially announced without them. As for getting the coaches apart, someone, sooner or later will do a user guide. Would you have considered it a white elephant if they hadn't bothered with lighting? I doubt they would have been any cheaper. Once somebody works out how to get the body apart, it will be possible to move the capacitor or even disable the lighting completely. We may well get body removal instructions with the 5/7 packs like we do with locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted October 20, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2021 30 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said: Would you have considered it a white elephant if they hadn't bothered with lighting? I doubt they would have been any cheaper. Once somebody works out how to get the body apart, it will be possible to move the capacitor or even disable the lighting completely. We may well get body removal instructions with the 5/7 packs like we do with locos. We get instructions on how to remove the body on the NDM, and I can’t work out how to do it without risking damage. No way of fitting DCC sound without getting that body off. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRail642fan Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 On 18/10/2021 at 17:35, Roy Langridge said: I am planning to try and swap the bodies between the unpowered NDM and the powered NDM. The then non-powered 49004 will probably find its way to ebay. Roy in my case, the now unpowered 49004 spare, i'll probably just renumber it to the spare NDM 49007 since i plan on buying myself two more APTs later on done the line (370003 & 370004 and 370005 & 370006) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted October 20, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) This is what your looking at removed.. X11547 is a standard Hornby lighting board. the capacitor is soldered to the board. close up, you can see a couple of rectifiers, to allow bidirectional DC, goes into the Capacitor and hence the LEDs Edited October 20, 2021 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 8 hours ago, MoonM said: Thanks. Must admit I would have expected them to be closer given recent coupling tech advances generally across our hobby. I suppose though this is a unique system to the apt. Will have to investigate how much improvement I can potentially make when I get my delivery (fingers crossed) next week They are as close as they can be to negotiate train set corners. Remember it’s made by Hornby, not Accurascale 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) Despite all the gripes about capacitor, the model is very nice. I particularly like the longitudinal seams on the roof, the correct sized wheels and the finesse of the bogies. Also the correct livery makes a massive difference. Looking forward to the useful bits before too long! And packaging you can get it out of without a fight. Edited October 20, 2021 by Wolf27 tidying up 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac1874 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) Oh dear, hope this is not a common issue, a visible capacitor that doesn't do anything! https://www.facebook.com/groups/268189996609618/permalink/4314322855329625/ Edited October 20, 2021 by ac1874 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted October 20, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2021 Private group..... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac1874 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Can't find it anywhere else unfortunately. It is showing the lights going off as soon as the APT coach is taken off the track, so the capacitor is not doing anything. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted October 21, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2021 5 hours ago, ac1874 said: Can't find it anywhere else unfortunately. It is showing the lights going off as soon as the APT coach is taken off the track, so the capacitor is not doing I conducted my own little experiment and let the capacitor sit and charge for 30secs, 1 min then 2 mins and there was no noticeable change in the lights going out almost immediately. It’s only got enough capacity to reduce flicker not eliminate it really so I’d agree pretty pointless. The only thing the experiment made me think is I wish they’d included a switch as it’s way too bright for daytime running! No worries I’ll just bend the contacts slightly off the wheels and not worry about hiding the cap as the tiny works quite nicely with the lights off. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyneux Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Is that a voltage regulator on the board? Looks like it. If so, given the capacitance I wonder whether the cap is actually more there to smooth the dcc signal after rectification before feeding it to the regulator. So nothing really to do with ‘stay alive’ at all! Guy 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac1874 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 I did overhear somebody (who would know) at GETS talking about problems Hornby had with the lighting on the APT. This may be nothing to do with what we are seeing of course and those issues resolved, that said it looks like they've wrestled this a bit and come up with a less than elegant solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted October 21, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2021 20 minutes ago, ac1874 said: I did overhear somebody (who would know) at GETS talking about problems Hornby had with the lighting on the APT. This may be nothing to do with what we are seeing of course and those issues resolved, that said it looks like they've wrestled this a bit and come up with a less than elegant solution. What, thrown in their standard light bar? Doesn't seem to have taken much thought... Roy 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 For all we know Hornby may have tried to avoid this but with productions slots and shipping malarkey they opted to take an easier option. We don’t know for sure and probably never will, after all Hornby dont like to give much away unless it’s for betterment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigeddie Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 22 hours ago, Bigeddie said: I have asked Hornby why the thing is there and for some helpful guidance on opening up the coaches, so far they have clarified why the capacitor is there …, I have spoken with the development team on this, they have informed me that due to the tilting although not ideal they no other choice on the fitting of the capacitor.… we shall see Feedback on coach opening from Hornby …to release the coach body from the chassis you will need to remove three screws from the under side of the chassis , there a 3 clips each side of the body ( 1/4 points front and back also mid point) insert a thin blade until you meet the clip then lever out to release… i seem to recall this is similar to the older version? 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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