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PaulRhB

Hornby APT 2020

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11 minutes ago, Mel_H said:

Nice, but the slight snag might be that this is what the book says, but not what actually ran?

 

Hi Mel_H

 

Thanks for the insight Mel_H... I'd be interested to see what did actually run over those years, if the book is indeed incorrect... and the running numbers within each rake, while we can name some 14-Car Sets and every running number on a particulate rakes from certain published information. What about the running numbers of the other Sets...?

 

What numbers were the other APT-P Rakes and there running numbers... I'd be interested to know more, if you can... I understand some APT Coaches may have been swapped around fairly regularly or remains out of service while maintenance etc gets carried out or even internally modified, to get the Tilt mechanism correct etc,.

 

Regards

Jamie

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Updated my List...

 

Showing the Hornby Formation vs APT-P Formations according to 1980 / 1981 & 1983.

 

1197613372_TheRealLifeAPT-PFormationsvsHornbyAPT-P2020FormationONLYJPEG.jpg.b66cf369c6336ac31c861c7353307c67.jpg

 

Regards

Jamie

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On 19/02/2020 at 17:48, Pete the Elaner said:

So if they feel a dummy NDM is suitable for a 14 car black fronted version, why are they selling (& therefore recommending) a powered NDM to expand the 5-car set to 14?

It doesn't seem like they have thought that one through properly.

Hi Pete
I thought the same. Regardless weather its a black or yellow front end. They will require a minuim amout of pushing power for a 14 car set. I would be nice for Hornby to say. How many  moterised power cars are required for a 14 car formation, one or two.
I have noticed on there web site you can only get the un moterised power car in the 7 car set. So for Hornby to make the digram for the 5 car set they would have had to use a second moterised power as they dont sell the unmoterised unit on its own. Which then begs the question. Should they have sold the single  power car unmoterised or put in a second moterised power car in the 7 car set. Ok it will up the price a bit but not that much .

John

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7APT7

Sorry to do this but after all your hard work tracking down which coach numbers are in each set, it seems you missed one

This pic is  from Hornby's site

It shows 370 007 leading a train with 6 coaches, at least 1NDM & who knows?

Also the colour under the nose looks to be the same white as the stripe between the red & dark grey

 

577778798_370007.jpg.748674be84289e01eb6d9db409d8f1c3.jpg

 

John

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Hi Folks,

 

All this talk of particular numbers and particular set formations does seem rather academic to me. In the real world of railway operation which is nothing more than a mechanical system, should a component or coach be defective it is removed from service and either repaired or replaced. When in-situ repairs may not be effective then the particular coach may be withdrawn and substituted for another coach or the set may be reduced.

 

If removed to effect repair a coach would not necessarily be placed back exactly from where it came, it may go back into the same set in either the same position or in a different position. There is always the possibility that if a substitution occurs then the substituted coach is left where it is and the formally defective coach is placed elsewhere once repaired.

 

The books containing stock numbers are only correct in that the original sets and their numbers in the way that things were planned to be are listed and ordered, but failures and damage in service will soon mix up all of what is written on paper.

 

The whole point of a stock numbering system is so that operators and engineers know which vehicles are which, which vehicles are rostered for services scheduled, what mileages they have run, when examinations are due and what repairs have been undertaken. From an operational point of view the railway in general is not bothered what numbers are carried or if the order matches what is written on a stock list, more that what ever is in service is safe and reliable and matches the maintenance records and service roster .

 

There is a good chance that any photograph found may illustrate a set formation that may have only run for that day and not ever again in that order and conversely there may have been set formations that lasted some months of which no published photographs are extant, go figure.

 

Gibbo.

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Yes I totally get that applies for many types of stock.

 

With the APT-P however the Mk3 tilt package wasn't implemented across all vehicles at once, and then only after the 25,000 mileage accumulation phase had been completed. So for a long period around late 1980 into 1981, it seems a stable set did run together, presumably because it had to. With the APT-P being a fixed articulated set, I don't believe changes were made that frequently. Certain cars were allocated to certain test programmes, fitted with certain equipment and modifications which then ran over several weeks/months before a new phase was entered which initiated a change around.

 

Whilst DTSs and NDMs were often recorded, there are very few full formation records out there. On the one occasion I saw a full 14-car set, it had cars from all of the 6 full sets, so I definitely will not be getting hung up on having matching numbers sets.  Given the choice I would prefer Hornby to make DTS 370 005/6/7 as they were the first it seems to receive the Mk3 tilt package.

 

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I agree John

Imagine if we were trying to keep track of BR Mk1 coaches. ;)

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6 hours ago, John ks said:

7APT7

Sorry to do this but after all your hard work tracking down which coach numbers are in each set, it seems you missed one

This pic is  from Hornby's site

It shows 370 007 leading a train with 6 coaches, at least 1NDM & who knows?

Also the colour under the nose looks to be the same white as the stripe between the red & dark grey

 

577778798_370007.jpg.748674be84289e01eb6d9db409d8f1c3.jpg

 

John

 

That looks very like a 6+2+2 formation from the unadvertised public service phase in 1984.

 

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1 minute ago, Colin_McLeod said:

I agree John

Imagine if we were trying to keep track of BR Mk1 coaches. ;)

My brain hurts

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23 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

 

Hi Mel_H

 

Thanks for the insight Mel_H... I'd be interested to see what did actually run over those years, if the book is indeed incorrect... and the running numbers within each rake, while we can name some 14-Car Sets and every running number on a particulate rakes from certain published information. What about the running numbers of the other Sets...?

 

What numbers were the other APT-P Rakes and there running numbers... I'd be interested to know more, if you can... I understand some APT Coaches may have been swapped around fairly regularly or remains out of service while maintenance etc gets carried out or even internally modified, to get the Tilt mechanism correct etc,.

 

Regards

Jamie

 

I suspect that others on this thread will have information, or can provide it. From this collective a list of specific sets and dates seen could be compiled. 

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22 hours ago, John ks said:

7APT7

Sorry to do this but after all your hard work tracking down which coach numbers are in each set, it seems you missed one

This pic is  from Hornby's site

It shows 370 007 leading a train with 6 coaches, at least 1NDM & who knows?

 

Hi John, unsure of the point you are trying to make to be honest with you mate.

 

But, Thank You for your comment and input. The information about 370 007 is what is in the book (All 3 Books in fact, although these are wrong according to another post) as you can see from what I uploaded in above posts (370 007 which were built as a Spare DTS 48107, as was TBF 48607) the fact that they have used it probably more often out of all other Numbers, along with 370 005 or 006 on the rear for the most part, in photo's that state the rear Car-Numbers in some photo's.

 

The fact that the Rakes I have put together in MY last post, I was merely trying to make a full rake of 14-cars (Just like Hornby have done) but I have tried to involve the book information along with the running numbers Hornby are releasing.  Hornby may have showed that photo of "370 007 leading a train with 6 coaches, at least 1NDM & who knows?" (as you say) and may have released numbers that are possibly not in that rake in that Photo you refer to 370 007 etc,.... who know's.... as you have rightfully said.

 

Personally, I am only interested in running a 14-Car sets as I know from that, all other possibilities will be possible and preferably what ran Prototypical, or at least try to run what is Prototypical.  If I knew the numbers 6+2+2 formation, I would amend my list accordingly to include those formations to, even though Hornby only seem to put together the two 14-Car sets just like I have done (Which is why I am confused in what point are you trying to make)  I have copied suit by using what is in the three books, along with what Hornby's 5 and 7 car sets are and which Hornby Twin Pack you need to have  to enable a 14-car rake, and I was showing that based on Hornby;s Information and the nearest to a Prototypical rake you can run/use on your layout.  If Hornby released the formation Pack you need to run a 6+2+2 formation, or I got the information from... a dare say it, a book, then I would have done the same thing, so I could add those accordingly to the List in the Last Post... I can see it as annoyed you in some way but how, and why, is not clear to me at all, therefore I will not upload any future book or books information, or state from any book or book as they appear to be incorrect, by a another post. I do apologies for the distress it as had on you.

 

22 hours ago, John ks said:

Also the colour under the nose looks to be the same white as the stripe between the red & dark grey

I don't quite understand where your last part of your comment comes into the equation that you have raised, with regards to the Colour white...! and the colour under the nose looks to be the same white as the stripe between the red & dark grey... (as you have said)

 

You have thrown me altogether on this one John... but as you have raised it... I have uploaded 4 photos for you, Have I got it wrong..., (and I, also see the same Colour in the Post above, taken off Hornby's Website Photo aka 370 007)

 

Firstly... I see the colour under the nose as the exact same colour as I see on the side profile on the bottom half of the APT-P where the Bogies are and up to the Red Line where you see the Running Number 48103 within the Red Line itself. 

Secondly... so you are saying... the part under the RED, you are saying, is WHITE below the RED Line, and the same WHITE in colour, as the WHITE LINE seen above the RED LINE, which continues up and over the Cab roof and Dark Grey in the Top Half which comes down to join the WHITE LINE...?

 

If I am wrong then, I stand corrected and apologises for my mistake and Mistakes in advance of, but I beg to differ John, and I would be interested in what other people see in the attached photos, I would say that it maybe cleaner part of the APT-P or it's brighter due to the way the sunshine is hitting it, but it's still by no mean WHITE, and the same WHITE as the WHITE LINE.  Photos, don't lye but apparently book do, ....

 

Is this a case of... 

do you see the Sea as Green, OR do you see the Sea as Blue... or maybe...

That famous dress colour in the press/news a few years ago, do you see White and Gold OR Blue and Black Dress...

 

376635095_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(291)RMWeb1.JPG.c728a4f42ca1b045a2ecdf9501197db7.JPG

 

1202188042_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(22)Mod1.jpg.038614192f9846d8ff1207c3bf529a0b.jpg

 

780382100_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(306)RMWeb1.JPG.0e18e85a8ad48bac8a089c59d2ae767e.JPG

 

854400783_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(18)Mod1.jpg.df09579b44497807966a85657939b5fa.jpg

 

1228353410_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(339)Mod1.jpg.ec313bb043d182aa6ff739bbebf87ee5.jpg

 

429614143_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(282)Mod1.jpg.fd28e18ea98e6242e8dca78fdd071bc4.jpg

 

 

Regards

Jamie

Edited by 7APT7
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2 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

 

Hi John, unsure of the point you are trying to make to be honest with you mate.

 

But, Thank You for your comment and input. The information about 370 007 is what is in the book (All 3 Books in fact, although these are wrong according to another post) as you can see from what I uploaded in above posts (370 007 which were built as a Spare DTS 48107, as was TBF 48607) the fact that they have used it probably more often out of all other Numbers, along with 370 005 or 006 on the rear for the most part, in photo's that state the rear Car-Numbers in some photo's.

 

The fact that the Rakes I have put together in MY last post, I was merely trying to make a full rake of 14-cars (Just like Hornby have done) but I have tried to involve the book information along with the running numbers Hornby are releasing.  Hornby may have showed that photo of "370 007 leading a train with 6 coaches, at least 1NDM & who knows?" (as you say) and may have released numbers that are possibly not in that rake in that Photo you refer to 370 007 etc,.... who know's.... as you have rightfully said.

 

Personally, I am only interested in running a 14-Car sets as I know from that, all other possibilities will be possible and preferably what ran Prototypical, or at least try to run what is Prototypical.  If I knew the numbers 6+2+2 formation, I would amend my list accordingly to include those formations to, even though Hornby only seem to put together the two 14-Car sets just like I have done (Which is why I am confused in what point are you trying to make)  I have copied suit by using what is in the three books, along with what Hornby's 5 and 7 car sets are and which Hornby Twin Pack you need to have  to enable a 14-car rake, and I was showing that based on Hornby;s Information and the nearest to a Prototypical rake you can run/use on your layout.  If Hornby released the formation Pack you need to run a 6+2+2 formation, or I got the information from... a dare say it, a book, then I would have done the same thing, so I could add those accordingly to the List in the Last Post... I can see it as annoyed you in some way but how, and why, is not clear to me at all, therefore I will not upload any future book or books information, or state from any book or book as they appear to be incorrect, by a another post. I do apologies for the distress it as had on you.

 

I don't quite understand where your last part of your comment comes into the equation that you have raised, with regards to the Colour white...! and the colour under the nose looks to be the same white as the stripe between the red & dark grey... (as you have said)

 

You have thrown me altogether on this one John... but as you have raised it... I have uploaded 4 photos for you, Have I got it wrong..., (and I, also see the same Colour in the Post above, taken off Hornby's Website Photo aka 370 007)

 

Firstly... I see the colour under the nose as the exact same colour as I see on the side profile on the bottom half of the APT-P where the Bogies are and up to the Red Line where you see the Running Number 48103 within the Red Line itself. 

Secondly... so you are saying... the part under the RED, you are saying, is WHITE below the RED Line, and the same WHITE in colour, as the WHITE LINE seen above the RED LINE, which continues up and over the Cab roof and Dark Grey in the Top Half which comes down to join the WHITE LINE...?

 

If I am wrong then, I stand corrected and apologises for my mistake and Mistakes in advance of, but I beg to differ John, and I would be interested in what other people see in the attached photos, I would say that it maybe cleaner part of the APT-P or it's brighter due to the way the sunshine is hitting it, but it's still by no mean WHITE, and the same WHITE as the WHITE LINE.  Photos, don't lye but apparently book do, ....

 

Is this a case of... 

do you see the Sea as Green, OR do you see the Sea as Blue... or maybe...

That famous dress colour in the press/news a few years ago, do you see White and Gold OR Blue and Black Dress...

 

376635095_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(291)RMWeb1.JPG.c728a4f42ca1b045a2ecdf9501197db7.JPG

 

1202188042_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(22)Mod1.jpg.038614192f9846d8ff1207c3bf529a0b.jpg

 

780382100_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(306)RMWeb1.JPG.0e18e85a8ad48bac8a089c59d2ae767e.JPG

 

854400783_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(18)Mod1.jpg.df09579b44497807966a85657939b5fa.jpg

 

1228353410_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(339)Mod1.jpg.ec313bb043d182aa6ff739bbebf87ee5.jpg

 

429614143_APT-PCreweHeritageCentre(282)Mod1.jpg.fd28e18ea98e6242e8dca78fdd071bc4.jpg

 

 

Regards

Jamie

Cracking photos and useful tables! I’d stop worrying about what others think and enjoy the information you have compiled from research. I’ve looked at the data and decided  the simplest thing to do is buy both packs and all the coaches, then I can mix/match as I fancy! 

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Jamie

Regarding the colour change on 370 007 I added that to highlight differences in livery from one unit to another, the pic should explain what I see.

The set from Crewe looks to have the same colour below the red line & it wraps around the nose & has a fine red line wrapping around the nose

 

I hope you don't mind using your photo from Crewe 

There is a slight possibility that I might be in that photo, I was the only Aussie there on that fateful day arranged by he who shall not be named

1955929559_370007cc.jpg.a2a3d2a3b9d299b502fdde0857e58572.jpg

On 21/02/2020 at 15:59, John ks said:

Sorry to do this but after all your hard work tracking down which coach numbers are in each set, it seems you missed one

I apologise if this statement came across as a bit harsh, it was not my intention.

 

3 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

therefore I will not upload any future book or books information, or state from any book or book as they appear to be incorrect, by a another post. I do apologies for the distress it as had on you.

Please continue to upload any information you feel is relevant

John 

 

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Does anyone have any photos of 003 actually running on the mainline with the front end painted as per the photo of it above in the Crewe Heritage Centre?  It may be how it's been painted when there, and may not be as it was when in service.

Edited by Dixie Dean
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15 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

Does anyone have any photos of 003 actually running on the mainline with the front end painted as per the photo of it above in the Crewe Heritage Centre?

 

Hi Dixie Dean

 

Hope these will help you, help, found these on Internet and not my own contents. The British Rail (2nd Photo) seems to be an advert of some kind by BR themselves. All should be 370 003. 

 

370003_Carlisle_1.jpg.9061ead2bc99878cec2c2f85f1d5c1f3.jpg

 

931407968_APT-P370003onthefrontcoverofaBRpromotionalbrochurefromthemid1980s.jpg.a94ec05ad90c503772095220acf2d65e.jpg

364432781_APT-P370003YellowEnds1.jpg.6fc1f60a3bb479d05066afd04cf08480.jpg

 

1201219811_APT-PAnothershotof370003fromthebrochure.jpg.f11912e8c42eb60102f45e70bbe5df01.jpg

 

 

And an Un-Numbered, although it would be interesting to see what the 481## is on the side which as the number.

1236944216_APT-PClass370NoNumber1.jpg.bda7088ecf5763fe8b4cd9711334ee98.jpg

 

Jamie

 

 

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Thanks Jamie for that wide range of options!  Any livery you like then (well almost) but not red infilled "APT" on the front!

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2 hours ago, John ks said:

Jamie

Regarding the colour change on 370 007 I added that to highlight differences in livery from one unit to another, the pic should explain what I see.

The set from Crewe looks to have the same colour below the red line & it wraps around the nose & has a fine red line wrapping around the nose

 

I hope you don't mind using your photo from Crewe 

There is a slight possibility that I might be in that photo, I was the only Aussie there on that fateful day arranged by he who shall not be named

1955929559_370007cc.jpg.a2a3d2a3b9d299b502fdde0857e58572.jpg

I apologise if this statement came across as a bit harsh, it was not my intention.

 

Please continue to upload any information you feel is relevant

John 

 

 

Hi John...

whatever you say mate... let's move on hey...

 

The Blue... I still say, that's the way the light is reflecting on that part of the APT as there is a very slight curve at that point as it comes down to the Nose Front, but is diffidently not Pure White like we see on the White Line. Evan if you were to walk past the train on the station you wouldn't really notice the change, how it been pointed out from a far and photos, taken from a distance, it's the way the Camera captures the light, so it look different, the same is true on the Virgin Pendolino, the Red reflex different shades of Red as the front of the cab rounds off, but it's still the same Virgin Red. I think the Curve can be seen slightly on the photo I uploaded with the Nose Cone lifted up to reveal the Buffer Beam, etc... is very slight but its there.

 

The Green... I really can't answer, (Apart from see Blue, above) but again I still think it is due to the slight curve on the body, and the way light reflex differently due to the slight angle of the bodywork, as to how it impacts on how we see it... interesting as 370 007 is fairly dirty, it's noticeable the main dirt starts at the bogies, at high speed the only moving parts to throw up any sort dirt are the wheels so it logical that dirt as an impact on where the bulk of the dirt would build up the most, around the bogies.... but hey what do I know.

 

Black... hey what do I know... we have spoke about this earlier in the Thread a few pages back. I don't think this was ansered as I didn't know the answer either. I would however... like to know what the time period of these different Logo types were added or changed and in which order came first, unless it was some kind of Livery Test Trial as to improvements to which Logo looked best as it was a whole new livery for BR InterCity... but like I said... what do I know.

 

If the Cap Fits, then wear it, as the saying goes...

According to some on here, with barely a sentence in length on both comments, is just unwanted negativity, but apparently we all should know the answers on this thread according to them, do people not just take a second to think what they write and the impact that can have, rather than ensuring positive comments on here along with respect for others, when it's on someone else's genuine comment for answers, if you are not prepared to answer a question, by leaving it to others on this thread as an answer, is sickening and just shouts out Troll and keyboard warrior to me... why comment at all, if you have nothing constructive to say towards any thread, in order to help and to improve the knowledge of others and while at the same time expanding someone else's knowledge for the better. This is exactly how trolls do start by getting away with the odd single sentence here and there throughout the RMWeb, when commenting negatively on other peoples comments... it's unwanted, uncalled for, and unnecessary, and an inconvenience to everyone having to read and having to put up with it, towards those who have asked a genuine question.... I ask myself, really... 

 

If you are going to come on here, then respect other peoples opinions, (Yes, we all have them, I'm quite aware of that) if you can't answer a question or not even be prepared to answer anywhere close to it with a positive thought going forward on the question raised, then don't leave a Post at all, leave it to those that do know the answers, or have the balls to say... I don't know that answer, sadly... It's a far better answer than that is what I would do, and what do I know...

 

I stopped coming on the RMWeb a few years ago due to the constant negativity and unwanted comments by the few, or I came on very rarely. I know there are some decent people on here, I've met a fair few of them over my time. I come on here to gain knowledge or to help other to gain knowledge. we see enough negative stuff in the news everyday as it is, the last place should be on the love for the railways and Modelling.

Rant over...

 

Jamie

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The Truth is, none of us really ever know just how much someone else is hurting on the inside.  We could be standing right beside someone who is completely damaged and broken and we have no idea, whatsoever... Always BE Nice, Be Kind.

 

 

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Interesting to note (thanks to Dixie Dean for asking for the 370 003 photo's)

 

I just noticed on the Photo's of 370 003 above, did anyone spot the 481## numbers on the side, some are at the front near the Cab end, whilst others are near the other end towards the back of the coach...

 

I wonder how many APT-P's had that format, was this another change to get the look right in some way...

 

Jamie

 

 

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30 minutes ago, 7APT7 said:

I stopped coming on the RMWeb a few years ago due to the constant negativity and unwanted comments by the few, or I came on very rarely. 

 

Glad you're still here and making a very positive contribution!

Edited by Dixie Dean
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Did it ever run with a gold front and the window band at the other end do we know?

 

Edited by guarded

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4 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

 

The British Rail (2nd Photo) seems to be an advert of some kind by BR themselves.

 

 

931407968_APT-P370003onthefrontcoverofaBRpromotionalbrochurefromthemid1980s.jpg.a94ec05ad90c503772095220acf2d65e.jpg

 

 

 

 

This was a small A5 booklet on the APT, I have one somewhere but can’t find it at present. 

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370 003 & 370 006 as seen at crewe

 

image.png.c3b24880003f144a48a71d96791f8afd.png

 

Jamie

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What once was and what now is, I'll be catching the new Pendolino next month I just hope its the new livery and not the ghostly white version or un-branded

 

image.png.2b2bbc4f560212de56781c126181ab17.png

 

Jamie

 

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