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Hornby APT 2020


PaulRhB
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Something to note regarding the ball joint on the bogie, when coupling the coaches, there is no 'click' when doing so, meaning the whole train is held together by gravity alone. That kind of worries me since my layout plan includes a gradient and i fear the coaches my decouple due to it

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2 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

Something to note regarding the ball joint on the bogie, when coupling the coaches, there is no 'click' when doing so, meaning the whole train is held together by gravity alone. That kind of worries me since my layout plan includes a gradient and i fear the coaches my decouple due to it

Rightly or wrongly, I'm increasingly concerned the design has been rushed to coincide with Hornby's centenary with design resources spread thin across numerous major projects e.g. Rocket retool / Dublo reintroduction etc. If I'm correct it starts to make we wonder what other corners have possibly been cut.

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3 hours ago, WestRail642fan said:

Something to note regarding the ball joint on the bogie, when coupling the coaches, there is no 'click' when doing so, meaning the whole train is held together by gravity alone. That kind of worries me since my layout plan includes a gradient and i fear the coaches my decouple due to it

Do the coaches pull apart easily ie very little resistance when coupled together?

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22 hours ago, rembrow said:

I'm wondering if they represent the alcohol barrels used to ply the journalists, by BRs publicity dept on the inaugural run. Allegedly they drunk the train dry, then complained of sickness on the curves. I'm sure I can see Watneys Red Barrel and Dewars  printed.

 

Not quite, the publicity booze-up was in the Central Station Hotel the night before. I stayed there too, but more soberly, and the noise from the bar went on well into the small hours!

 

I'm not at all sure if there was any beer available on board the train on the inaugural run actually, and the media were moving up and down the train much of the time asking the passengers how they liked it.

 

The 'tilt sickness' amongst the media started occurring around Abington on the run, around the same time that it became light enough to actually see the horizon going up and down as the train tilted. Until then it was almost impossible to realise that it was tilting at all, so good was the control system by then. (Me biased, of course not....:D)

 

Edited by Mr_Tilt
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39 minutes ago, Markwj said:

Do the coaches pull apart easily ie very little resistance when coupled together?

 

For the articulated connections, the end of the coach without the captive bogie has a little hole that fits over a spigot on the adjoining coach's bogie -- so they're uncoupled by lifting off rather than being pulled apart, unlike the original model. Can't speak for the TBF-to-NDM coupling as I've only got the NDM so far, that looks like a pull-apart coupling but couldn't tell you how much force was needed.

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21 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

The thought process was more likely……”whoops we can really see that capacitor, oh well we are Hornby they’ll still buy as many as we can make”. :lol:

 

Personally, I'm buying it because it's an APT - I don't care whose name is on the box.

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My pair of buffet cars arrived this morning.

 

First impressions are that, capacitors aside, they look really nice. You can't really see the capacitors through the windows on the TRBSs due due to the tinted windows but, and it's a pretty massive "but", I've not powered them up and seen them with the lights on yet. I would imagine the capacitors will stand out much more visibly then.

 

Such a shame. I've been really looking forward to these since they were announced and it's disappointing that they didn't find a better way of arranging the capacitors. :(

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1 hour ago, Mr_Tilt said:

The 'tilt sickness' amongst the media started occurring around Abington on the run, around the same time that it became light enough to actually see the horizon going up and down as the train tilted. Until then it was almost impossible to realise that it was tilting at all, so good was the control system by then. (Me biased, of course not....:D)

 

 

HI there,

 

Very interesting.  My understanding was that the nausea was caused by conflicting signals in the brain - eyes telling the passenger they're tilting, inner ear saying they aren't - because the tilt was 'too good' and exactly neutralised the effect of the curve.  Later designs took account of this and reduced the tilt just enough to ensure passengers' eyes and ears agreed!

 

I am sure the journalists of the day did enjoy BR's hospitality but blaming the train's failure on one run, and one group of reporters, is just lazy and fails to account for the political climate of the time and its impact on state-owned operators.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

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28 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

Very interesting.  My understanding was that the nausea was caused by conflicting signals in the brain - eyes telling the passenger they're tilting, inner ear saying they aren't - because the tilt was 'too good' and exactly neutralised the effect of the curve.  Later designs took account of this and reduced the tilt just enough to ensure passengers' eyes and ears agreed!

That's exactly it. It's not (usually) a problem in aeroplanes because the roll rate is lower than it is on a tilting train and you're not generally rolling this way then the other way then back again. Except when it's turbulent and then you're being bounced around a bit anyway. It's interesting (and very useful for simulator manufacturers) that as long as you get some sensation of movement to go with seeing the movement, and as long as the feeling and seeing are synchronised, the amount of movement felt doesn't have to match the amount of movement seen. (Simulator visuals leading or lagging the movement even by a fraction of a second are a recipe for technicolour yawns!)

 

Back in my gliding days I remember one flight with a very experienced cross-country pilot who kept the glider perfectly coordinated (no skid/slip so no lateral force) and so you didn't feel any rolling -- but you saw it, just like with P- and E- trains. After an hour or so of aggressive thermalling I felt a bit queasy, but realised the best thing to do was close my eyes and lean my head against the headrest for a few minutes, and my brain would think we were travelling in a straight line. 10 minutes later I was fine.

 

As for lazy reporters, clearly they're not a new thing!

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49 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

 

I am sure the journalists of the day did enjoy BR's hospitality but blaming the train's failure on one run, and one group of reporters, is just lazy and fails to account for the political climate of the time and its impact on state-owned operators.

 

 

Was it just the 1 run or was this something which was resolved after its initial period in service? I was initially surprised that this effect was not observed in the APT-E, but maybe this was because it was usually occupied by technical staff who had acclimatised to the effect?

 

I agree that judging the APT by an effect which was resolved before its re-introduction into service is lazy reporting. Once the stories are out there, it is difficult to convince the general public that they are inaccurate & it was a shame to throw away so much ground-breaking hard work because of such reports.

Some things don't change & we still see bad media today, like the reports still claiming that "HS2 is a hugely expensive project just to cut 10 minutes off the journey time from London to Birmingham". Anyone with the smallest understanding of Britain's railways knows this is inaccurate, but much of the country believes it because they don't know any better & they are unwilling to listen to why you cannot just throw 4 more trains per hour on an already overcrowded railway line.

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First pair of coaches arrived today. They look very nice indeed. I’m not too worried about the capacitors… an easily solvable problem using the ‘m’ word and much easier to correct than a shape problem (if it bothers you).

 

I couldn’t wait to place them on track so here they are on one of Whatley’s fiddle yard boards. I couldn’t think of a more fitting way to support them than by using vehicles from the original 1980s set. They are just sitting in place on the shared bogies in the photos.

 

Still a big surprise to me that Hornby released the coaches before the sets. Hopefully not too long to wait now though…

 

Guy

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1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Was it just the 1 run or was this something which was resolved after its initial period in service? I was initially surprised that this effect was not observed in the APT-E, but maybe this was because it was usually occupied by technical staff who had acclimatised to the effect?

 

I agree that judging the APT by an effect which was resolved before its re-introduction into service is lazy reporting. Once the stories are out there, it is difficult to convince the general public that they are inaccurate & it was a shame to throw away so much ground-breaking hard work because of such reports.

Some things don't change & we still see bad media today, like the reports still claiming that "HS2 is a hugely expensive project just to cut 10 minutes off the journey time from London to Birmingham". Anyone with the smallest understanding of Britain's railways knows this is inaccurate, but much of the country believes it because they don't know any better & they are unwilling to listen to why you cannot just throw 4 more trains per hour on an already overcrowded railway line.


I think Ben’s point is slightly different, I don’t think he was saying it was ‘bad media’ (although I take your point about hs2).

 

I read it to mean that blaming the failure on the media alone is what is lazy. The trains failure might have involved the media but they weren’t the only cause (eg political situation etc).

 

Guy

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For those of you with retailer orders, I'm pleased to say our delivery of coaches and NDM's has been booked in for Wednesday so we know they are shipping to retailers this week! Look out for them arriving on the shelves of your local model shop soon! :D

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X11547 is a standard Hornby lighting board.

its stuck onto the roof of several previously issued Mk1, mk2, mk3’s.

 

I think the higher roofs on those, and positioning by a toilet make it less noticeable on those earlier coaches. It has been criticised previously as being not in sync to compartments, and lighting the BSK in the past, but it is a generic fitting.

 

I was hoping they would go down the magic wand route for these, and use a cr2032 like with the generics… concealing that battery in the floor of the coach would be much easier. I have a rake of Coronation coaches earlier this year and the duchess cannot pull them due to pickup drag, similar too with the last Brighton Belle release… so I hope the APT can pull these, though being non-steam and a big metal weight inside i’m assuming it can.

 

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31 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

X11547 is a standard Hornby lighting board.

its stuck onto the roof of several previously issued Mk1, mk2, mk3’s.

 

I think the higher roofs on those, and positioning by a toilet make it less noticeable on those earlier coaches. It has been criticised previously as being not in sync to compartments, and lighting the BSK in the past, but it is a generic fitting.

 

I was hoping they would go down the magic wand route for these, and use a cr2032 like with the generics… concealing that battery in the floor of the coach would be much easier. I have a rake of Coronation coaches earlier this year and the duchess cannot pull them due to pickup drag, similar too with the last Brighton Belle release… so I hope the APT can pull these, though being non-steam and a big metal weight inside i’m assuming it can.

 

I’ve bought a NDM coach so my 7 car set will have two power cars for 14. That should do it! 

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6 minutes ago, miles73128 said:

I’ve bought a NDM coach so my 7 car set will have two power cars for 14. That should do it! 

 

Same here. My only slight concern links to the discussion in the EFE 1983 stock thread where a sound and non-sound decoder are not quite playing together. I am sure it is nothing that cannot be overcome, but may just take some tweaking and trial and error.

 

Roy

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On 16/10/2021 at 18:28, PaulRhB said:

Bit daft but easy enough to add an inch of wire and pop it in the toilet hopefully. :lol:

One thing I have now noted is that the vestibules / toilets are open to the gangway end, possibly making the relocation of the capacitor somewhat harder.


Roy

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3 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

 

I think that this comment is at best harsh and at worst down right insulting to the designer and doesn't need to be said. 

 

I accept it isn't the best of designs and it might need changing. However, to imply that it is purely down to the apparent stupidity of the designer is an incredibly simplistic view of the situation. We don't know the requirements or restrictions the designer was working to, so it could be that it is simply the only option due to restrictions imposed by someone / something. I'm not saying that it is the case, I'm saying that we don't know the full story to pass full judgement.

 

The fact is, designers don't get it right all the time, but that doesn't mean they are stupid. I've had my signalling designs criticised on this forum without knowing the full extent of the restrictions etc. that was I working under, so it is quite hurtful to people to read comments like the above.

 

Simon

 

Agree . You dont know what constraints the designer is working to . It maybe he had no choice but to incorporate the standard fit as ADB968008 has pointed out .

 

It does strike me as a marked contrast though . In the TV program they are concerned about a flag on number plate facing wrong way and the edges of buffer beams being black instead of red, such attention to detail implied, and yet here we have a dirty great capacitor quite visible through windows . I believe the APT is to feature in a coming program . Maybe we will get answer then (won't hold my breath though!)

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I believe at the time preordering, Hornby hadn't actually advertised that the model came with interior lighting. Therefore, although it's not the finest example of interior lighting, for most of us it represents an additional feature that we didn't know we were getting. So maybe a bit of a first world problem...

 

Anyone got any pics of the NDM vehicle?

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57 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

One thing I have now noted is that the vestibules / toilets are open to the gangway end, possibly making the relocation of the capacitor somewhat harder.


Roy

Hidden in the vestibule they would be virtually invisible with the set together but I can’t try that out as I can’t get the clips apart down the body sides. I’ve tried squeezing the top, as the instructions show the clips as part of the top moulding, and pulling and then squeezing the bottom and they won’t budge. The four screws come out easily but I’m getting nowhere with the clips. 
 

You can see the end of the light board and plenty of room in here for the cap, but I can’t try it as I can’t get it apart! :lol:

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7 hours ago, Markwj said:

Do the coaches pull apart easily ie very little resistance when coupled together?

no, but they do feel like they could roll over any second, although, they might of just been because i was using eurostar trailers with them

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1 hour ago, WestRail642fan said:

im really tempted to buy the NDM and use it for parts for the dummy NDM that comes with the 7 coach pack

I am planning to try and swap the bodies between the unpowered NDM and the powered NDM. The then non-powered 49004 will probably find its way to ebay. 
 

Roy

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