Eastburn - Aire Valley 1950s

[Aire Head]

25 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

The kitbuilt stock will have finer wheels. They will run much better on the Code 75. The issue then is how easily you can convert the older stuff if necessary.

 

22 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Back to the plan, I don't understand why you are still not starting the outer fiddleyard with a right hand point further left (end of the curve from the viaduct). That has two advantages: greater length for the sidings and no reverse curve.

 

The issue with kitbuilt stuff was wether I trust myself enough to have got the chassis 100% square 

 

To be honest I had completely forgotten about starting the siding on the curve and will amend that on the plan!

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Aire Head said:

 

 

The issue with kitbuilt stuff was wether I trust myself enough to have got the chassis 100% square 

 

To be honest I had completely forgotten about starting the siding on the curve and will amend that on the plan!

 

You should be able to measure whether the chassis is square.

 

If it isn't, it won't run well whatever the track.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

The kitbuilt stock will have finer wheels. They will run much better on the Code 75. The issue then is how easily you can convert the older stuff if necessary.

 

Does code 75 now have finer flangeways than code 100?  The most recent info I can find indicates that they are the same, but it's 10 years old, so the specs could have changed since.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Does code 75 now have finer flangeways than code 100?  The most recent info I can find indicates that they are the same, but it's 10 years old, so the specs could have changed since.

 

It's more the other way round. Code 100 has changed (several times) over the years to finer flangeways as initially found on Code 75. I have not measured them recently but I think that they are still a bit wider and deeper.

[Aire Head]

Code 75 it is then! I have to admit I do look longingly at the new Bullhead stuff.

[Compound2632]

The bullhead track (not points) is being used on one of our club layouts where it has given quite a lot of trouble through being a bit too flexible - I believe there are more cuts in the webbing than for standard Code 75 and Code 100. 

 

 

[Aire Head]

So while I have been quiet over the last couple of days on the plan side of things it hasn't been in vain.

 

I found myself in the fortunate position of discovering both freight and passenger timetables for my particular area. Sadly none were the exact period but close enough to get a good indication of the daily goings on in the area.

 

As an approximation there is around a modest of 150 trains a day shuffling their way through at all hours of the day. 

 

Interestingly Steeton and Silsden station has 3 goods trains a day recorded as stopping there.

Down at 3.32 in the morning(!) and 14:24 both from Bradford to Skipton and Up at 8:02 from Skipton to Bingley.

 

Both timetables are roughly transcribed onto a spreadsheet through judicious use of beer, cigarettes and Franki goes to Hollywood 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Aire Head

[Flying Pig]

11 hours ago, Aire Head said:

and Up at 8:02 from Skipton to Bingley.

 

I wonder what it was doing at Steeton and Silsden?  Bingley doesn't sound like an ideal location for forwarding outbound goods.   Perhaps it was setting out only?

 

Also, the sidings at Steeton and Silsdon were on the down side, but faced the wrong way for shunting by a down train, so perhaps the up train was booked to shunt?

[Aire Head]

51 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I wonder what it was doing at Steeton and Silsden?  Bingley doesn't sound like an ideal location for forwarding outbound goods.   Perhaps it was setting out only?

 

Also, the sidings at Steeton and Silsdon were on the down side, but faced the wrong way for shunting by a down train, so perhaps the up train was booked to shunt?

 

It seems that way as the Up train is given 20 minutes at Steeton whereas as the 2 down trains are shown as having about 10 minutes. The 3.32 train is listed as detaches only aswell.

[Aire Head]

Amended track plan with larger fiddle yard area.

[Aire Head]

Of course there is always something you forget to do and in this case it was to swap over the goods yard pointwork to code 75 items.

 

Would really like to hear any further comment about this plan as when I look at it I can't see anything that doesn't look like it would work as desired but I suspect i could be missing something thats quite obvious.

[Flying Pig]

16 hours ago, Aire Head said:

Would really like to hear any further comment about this plan as when I look at it I can't see anything that doesn't look like it would work as desired but I suspect i could be missing something thats quite obvious.

 

I like the new arrangement of the goods yard.  Is the refuge siding on the clockwise circuit still long enough?

 

Does the fiddle yard now do what you want it to?  There are no crossovers, so presumably an operating pattern without reversing trains? I can't quite see how the spurs at the top left work.

 

[Aire Head]

On 22/05/2020 at 13:57, Flying Pig said:

 

I like the new arrangement of the goods yard.  Is the refuge siding on the clockwise circuit still long enough?

 

Does the fiddle yard now do what you want it to?  There are no crossovers, so presumably an operating pattern without reversing trains? I can't quite see how the spurs at the top left work.

 

 

I'm still debating the fiddle yard area as it would be good to be able to run trains in both directions and it's tempting to try and fit another line in there of possible however it will all impact on the size of trains that can be stored.

 

The spurs at the top were a thought that one could be used as a headshot to allow longer trains to be stored with the other to potentially store an additional locomotive.

 

I prefer the new goods yard alignment aswell however I agree that I may need to see if the refuge can be increased on length.

[Zomboid]

Where are the scenic limits now? There's very little space on scene to model part of the station in the bottom right as you originally intended. I would personally not bother with an on scene station in that area, just have a scenic break and imagine it's on the other side.

 

Or have it top left on the removable section. Not ideal, but I don't see many other options.

 

In the FY I'd try to have 2 roads in each direction and the middle one reversible. I can imagine a way to do it but I don't have anyrail to hand to sketch it out...

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

 

I'm still debating the fiddle yard area as it would be good to be able to run trains in both directions and it's tempting to try and fit another line in there of possible however it will all impact on the size of trains that can be stored.

 

The spurs at the top were a thought that one could be used as a headshot to allow longer trains to be stored with the other to potentially store an additional locomotive.

 

I prefer the new goods yard alignment aswell however I agree that I may need to see if the refuge can be increased on length.

 

I still think that cassettes would provide more usable FY capacity without the heavy cost of pointwork and tightly curved storage loops. They would be more flexible, allowing trains to be reversed, swapped from down to up, and locos to be exchanged or to "run round", as required. They would make use of the room's volume not just it's tiny floor area...

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Harlequin

[Aire Head]

54 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Where are the scenic limits now? There's very little space on scene to model part of the station in the bottom right as you originally intended. I would personally not bother with an on scene station in that area, just have a scenic break and imagine it's on the other side.

 

Or have it top left on the removable section. Not ideal, but I don't see many other options.

 

In the FY I'd try to have 2 roads in each direction and the middle one reversible. I can imagine a way to do it but I don't have anyrail to hand to sketch it out...

 

Now I think about it moving the station to the lift out section actually works relatively well. It will only get lifted out when not in operation and therefore when nothing is stood there and means the goods yard becomes less cramped.

 

45 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

I still think that cassettes would provide more usable FY capacity without the heavy cost of pointwork and tightly curved storage loops. They would more flexible, allowing trains to be reversed, swapped from down to up, and locos to be exchanged or to "run round", as required. They would make use of room's volume not just it's tiny floor area...

 

 

I can see the advantage as it allows more rakes to be available however I'm still concerned by moving 4' long cassettes in a 4' by 4' operating well.

[Zomboid]

You can then move the outer FY points round the corner to eliminate the reverse curves on the exit (same as you've done on the entrance. To make the centre road reversible basically swap three points at each end on the inner for 3 ways and complete the crossover with a normal point.

[Aire Head]

Yeah that make sense if the middle 2 roads are reversible I can have a local and an "express" passenger train I can run in either direction and have a through goods on each line plus the pickup on the down line.

 

If I can squeeze an extra fiddle yard road I could potentially get a parcels train in too.

[Zomboid]

I can't immediately see how to make the middle 2 reversible without losing a lot of length, but the middle 1 should be easy enough.

 

Edit - see it now, trailing (or facing) crossovers at either end would allow you to alternate the passenger trains in either direction.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Zomboid

[Flying Pig]

14 hours ago, Aire Head said:

Now I think about it moving the station to the lift out section actually works relatively well. It will only get lifted out when not in operation and therefore when nothing is stood there and means the goods yard becomes less cramped.

 

Give this a try.  Personally I will be surprised if it is an improvement, as the need to turn through about 135° around the left hand side of the room to connect with the removable section will make it very difficult to arrange the pointwork for the yard, which currently occupies the longest available side of the room.  The need to keep your slips straight is very constraining and changing to long ladders of points would lose a great deal of Midland character.

 

Your basic problem is that you are trying to fit a lot into a small space.  The goods yard as drawn could really use a few more inches between the main line and the bottom edge of the layout to spread itself a bit, but that would mean losing length from the fiddle yard loops as well as tightening the left hand curve which currently sweeps rather nicely.  It's all compromise, unfortunately.

[Aire Head]

18 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Give this a try.  Personally I will be surprised if it is an improvement, as the need to turn through about 135° around the left hand side of the room to connect with the removable section will make it very difficult to arrange the pointwork for the yard, which currently occupies the longest available side of the room.  The need to keep your slips straight is very constraining and changing to long ladders of points would lose a great deal of Midland character.

 

Your basic problem is that you are trying to fit a lot into a small space.  The goods yard as drawn could really use a few more inches between the main line and the bottom edge of the layout to spread itself a bit, but that would mean losing length from the fiddle yard loops as well as tightening the left hand curve which currently sweeps rather nicely.  It's all compromise, unfortunately.

 

I meant by keeping the plan as it stands and rather than cramming the end of the platforms into the area between the goods yard sidings and the fiddle yard instead put platforms on the lift out section by the door.

[Flying Pig]

8 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

I meant by keeping the plan as it stands and rather than cramming the end of the platforms into the area between the goods yard sidings and the fiddle yard instead put platforms on the lift out section by the door.

 

But then you lose the relationship between the sidings and platforms which again is characteristic of the prototype. 

[Aire Head]

15 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

But then you lose the relationship between the sidings and platforms which again is characteristic of the prototype. 

 

Good point! 

It's a tough one 

 

[Harlequin]

It is difficult because you're trying to do the almost impossible and what you've got so far (or maybe what you had a few iterations back) is actually pretty amazing!

 

It's worth trying to fit the required extra loop in (and crossovers?) but if you can't then I think you've probably already reached the best possible compromise for this form of the plan.

 

The only other planning avenue open to you then would be to start again with a blank canvas and try something deliberately different. You might find a better plan or that the current plan is as good as it gets.

 

BTW: In my last suggestion, cassettes were 1080mm long and the operating well was 1660 * 1380mm (minus a couple of fillets in the corners).

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

You've got to compromise somewhere... Personally I would have the platforms off scene beyond a bridge at the end of the goods yard, but that might not be typical of the midland either. An Axminster or Botley style mid platform bridge might be another option, but again, those are LSWR examples and not common there...