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I think you need another one past the loop towards Skipton, so the loop & crossover could be used without occupying the next block section (Not hugely important since it would be off scene). And definitely something controlling down loop to up main (it's not really a down loop either since down trains have to back into it, but I don't know what they would have called such things) - would be a good place for one of those black & yellow ground discs, if they used those in the area.

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The trailing crossover at the Skipton end is I beleive a handover from a previous iteration and I'm starting to think it is increasingly redundant too.

 

Will add ground signals to the crossover with the slip. At the Keighley end. 

 

Regarding Yellow discs I can't say I would know and will start a separate topic on this subject in the signalling section.

 

@Zomboid yes I think it does need another signal after the loop exit on the Skipton direction.

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I have removed the secondary crossover and amended the signal diagram.

10 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

@Aire Head, check out this thread about signalling an ex-Midland station very like yours. Also the linked page on the Railways of Wharfedale, especially the plan of Embsay which again is very like your station.  Note how there are only two running signals in each direction and the movements from the sidings to the main line are controlled by discs.

 

 

 

I will certainly have a good look, I'm going to be starting a thread in the signalling section now as well :) 

 

I well versed in the David Heys pages. I always have the website open in a tab on my phone for a bit of reading if I'm stuck waiting around.

Signal Diagram.png

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The help I got from the folks in the Signalling Section was the most valuable advice and assistance I have ever received and folks like Flying Pig (sorry, i didn't pick up your real name) were so knowledgeable (and patient). I had completely no idea about signalling, nor prototypical track layout, but they soon guided me and showed me the error of my ways. I am really pleased how my layout now looks and operates.

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3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

That's not a universal arrangement though, you see single discs with multiple routes in some places. Depends on who signalled it (and I've no idea what MR/ LMS practice was)

 

The Signalling Record site doesn't appear to have any Aire Valley plans, but the Settle and Carlisle stations suggest that a single disc was usual for crossovers from sidings to running lines regardless of other sidings beyond the crossover.  Also no fixed signals at all for most crossovers between main lines and movements from running lines to sidings.

 

The Wharfedale stations on David Heys' site are the same and the plans and photos indicate that yellow discs were not yet in use by around 1960 - they're all red and so e are even old Midland designs.

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3 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

The Signalling Record site doesn't appear to have any Aire Valley plans, but the Settle and Carlisle stations suggest that a single disc was usual for crossovers from sidings to running lines regardless of other sidings beyond the crossover.  Also no fixed signals at all for most crossovers between main lines and movements from running lines to sidings.

 

The Wharfedale stations on David Heys' site are the same and the plans and photos indicate that yellow discs were not yet in use by around 1960 - they're all red and so e are even old Midland designs.

 

The only Aire Valley plans I've seen were on the Signal Box website however I can't see to access them anymore.

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On 02/03/2020 at 22:16, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I have not checked. But I am sure you would find the necessary components for the bracket signal from MSE (alias 51L, Comet, Wizard....).

 

A Midland bracket made from MSE parts.

 

DSCF7019.JPG.a072928226069ba00c352aa0553ad742.JPG

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I'm worried about the idea of making the lifting section be both scenic and also be a bridge. That's going to create all sorts of problems:

  • The bridge will just hang in space, possibly looking a bit odd.
  • The lifting section will be deeper, so less easy to duck under if you want to.
  • The lifting section will be heavier and more fragile than a non-scenic version.

I realise the need to maximise the scenic area and the need to combine elements in the limited space.

 

So I'm wondering whether the lifting section across the door could also be the bulk of the non-scenic fiddle yard in the form of (say) 4ft long cassettes...

 

Do you see the idea? Since you've got to bridge the doorway anyway, why not bridge it with non-scenic cassettes that can not only be lifted out for access but also multiplied and stored on racks for easier exchange of rolling stock. The FY in the current design probably doesn't have enough capacity to store the variety of stock you would want to run so you would already be exchanging stock and doing that on curves is not ideal.

 

Furthermore, the FY pointwork would be greatly reduced and you'd have a means of not only turning locos but turning whole trains.

 

Then almost the entire remainder of the circuit could be scenic, with a proper river scene somewhere...

 

I commend my idea to the house.

 

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11 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I'm worried about the idea of making the lifting section be both scenic and also be a bridge. That's going to create all sorts of problems:

  • The bridge will just hang in space, possibly looking a bit odd.
  • The lifting section will be deeper, so less easy to duck under if you want to.
  • The lifting section will be heavier and more fragile than a non-scenic version.

I realise the need to maximise the scenic area and the need to combine elements in the limited space.

 

So I'm wondering whether the lifting section across the door could also be the bulk of the non-scenic fiddle yard in the form of (say) 4ft long cassettes...

 

Do you see the idea? Since you've got to bridge the doorway anyway, why not bridge it with non-scenic cassettes that can not only be lifted out for access but also multiplied and stored on racks for easier exchange of rolling stock. The FY in the current design probably doesn't have enough capacity to store the variety of stock you would want to run so you would already be exchanging stock and doing that on curves is not ideal.

 

Furthermore, the FY pointwork would be greatly reduced and you'd have a means of not only turning locos but turning whole trains.

 

Then almost the entire remainder of the circuit could be scenic, with a proper river scene somewhere...

 

I commend my idea to the house.

 

 

It's an interesting thought, at present the bridge area is 2' long so in order to make it 4' long will require quite a change to non scenic area.

 

I'm also unsure about 4' cassettes as they sound unwieldy especially in a 4' by 4' operating well. I'm quite prepared though to hear opinions on the matter :good_mini:

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If the lifting section were modelled as a low embankment, that would be less cumbersome than a viaduct but still display the trains.  It doesn't seem sensible to store stationary trains on a lifting section that could be needed for access in a hurry.

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I used to use 5ft cassettes on Herculaneum Dock but they were rather unwieldy even though we only used them by lifting and sliding them sideways on the baseboard. Turning them round was a definite no-no. the layout is much better now without them.

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I picked 4ft out of the air because I thought that was about the length of train the current loops could accommodate but if the loco was uncoupled and either stored separately or provided with a siding on the layout then cassettes could be in the region of 3ft to 1m.

 

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

It doesn't seem sensible to store stationary trains on a lifting section that could be needed for access in a hurry.

 

Reasonable point but I would say that: (a.) removing a cassette ought to be made very easy so that the layout is easy to operate and thus doing the same thing for access shouldn't be too tiresome, and (b.) the cassettes would only have something standing on them if you were about to do an exchange. A lot of the time they would be clear, just being used as part of the main roundy-round circuits.

 

It would definitely involve compromises but maybe they would be worth it for the gains, especially the increased scenic run?

 

Edited by Harlequin
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Here's the basic cassette bridge concept drawn out:

 

1211011771_EastburnConcept3.png.4181fd288fd80d6fe11db343cd653d99.png

 

  • The concept in its purest form - the "fiddle yard" consists of simply the two bridge cassettes (and a loco spur)
  • The scenic area (green) is thus much bigger - immersive almost.
  • Cassettes are 1m long and spaced apart so they are easier to handle individually.
  • Valuable space is not taken up by FY points fans.
  • I turned the layout inside out so that the interesting goods yard is more visible instead of being in a corner.
  • The operating well is a bit bigger.
  • Min radius: 610mm
Edited by Harlequin
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I'd have thought 2 pairs of cassettes would be useful, to allow for one in use and 1 in the process of being swapped in each direction.

 

Whether they would be easy to use depends on the ease of reaching al wall to store them on.

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11 hours ago, Harlequin said:

“No answer!” came the stern reply.

 

Ah well, I think it's got possibilities. An idea to bear in mind for the future.

 

 

Apologies I've not been active much over the last few days! I've actually started playing around with the concept to see what it yields will update soon!

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On 07/03/2020 at 08:19, Harlequin said:

Here's the basic cassette bridge concept drawn out:

 

1211011771_EastburnConcept3.png.4181fd288fd80d6fe11db343cd653d99.png

 

  • The concept in its purest form - the "fiddle yard" consists of simply the two bridge cassettes (and a loco spur)
  • The scenic area (green) is thus much bigger - immersive almost.
  • Cassettes are 1m long and spaced apart so they are easier to handle individually.
  • Valuable space is not taken up by FY points fans.
  • I turned the layout inside out so that the interesting goods yard is more visible instead of being in a corner.
  • The operating well is a bit bigger.
  • Min radius: 610mm

 

I agree with the above, though perhaps it would be better with a single line.

 

When you go to the theatre, (bear with this) you get to see the front of the stage, but there's lots you don't get to see; the wings where the scenery is stored, the trapdoor in the middle of the stage, etc.  With an exhibition layout you can have the operators behind the stage and the audience at the front.  Note the audience gets the best view - the operators don't.  With home operation, this all has to be compromised.  Often the builder/operator wants the best view from the operating position, but at the same time wants to access the fiddle yard.  The solution of an open fiddle yard meanwhile shows your audience the backstage.  It's a dilemma.

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Commentators on the signalling should have a read of @Aire Head's topic devoted to that aspect of the layout:

 

 

Apologies, I've only just read through this topic on the layout itself. The Aire Valley line offers an interesting variety of station architecture, going back to its Little North Western days; or one could suppose Eastburn is an extra station added in Midland days, or an old station rebuilt on a new site - as happened in several cases - in which case a variety of Midland architectural styles are possible, from 1870s Settle-and-Carlisle-esque through to 1890s terracotta. Searching for "station" within the category "Drawing" on the Midland Railway Study Centre website will provide some inspiration and downloadable drawings.

Edited by Compound2632
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39 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

My advice, based on experience, is to forget the cassette idea and stick with the loop fiddle yard.

Can you explain why?

 

In the context of Aire Head's layout they could solve multiple issues and so they might be worth the potential downsides.

 

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